Chester Hallmarks-Photographed

[Mike Paice]

Initials like those are usually accredited to the springer, but I am not sure, I think that is for John Matthews. Going onto the Patent on the cock, it´s a Rack Lever, or a very early Massey I? It is not in your article, but very nice to see it here. Allan

It's a very nice Rack Lever, I bought a couple of years ago. The case shows very little sign of wear, the movement still works and it is all (with the exception of the hands) original (as best that I and the previous owner can tell). It is a relatively small, I would say lady's, watch. The table in my 2015 article has expanded to details of 244 Moncas watch movements - I should do an updated version to share here. Mike

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Please do that Mike, I am sure many members would be more than pleased. Allan

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Just an aside. I looked up Robert Bickerstaff in Loomes, and I found the following,

Bickerstaff Peter. Liverpool (Lancs) 1807-28. (Working dates).
Bickerstaff Robert, Circus Street, Liverpool (Lancs) 1818-29 (Working dates)
These two on page 69.

Turn the page to 70 and there is,

Bickerstaffe William, Liverpool (Lancs) 1790-1828 Also Jeweller. (note the "E" on the end of the name).
Bickerstaff Edward Liverpool (Lancs) 1829 watch case maker. (Why Edward comes after William I don´t know).
Bickerstaff, William Son of Robert of Langton (Lancs or Longton(Staffs) a. 1633 to Thomas Wright of Chester. q.v.

I then found some research by others on the net, see below, and from there I hope to find out more. It does seem that this family was in the horological trade for quite some time. I will let you know when finished.


//www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=11920cs

to be cont.....

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Here is another case with the "S" for 1836/37 to complement the one above on Mikes Moncas watch, The case-makers, in this instance, are Thomas Ellison & Henry Fishwick of Liverpool. there is small"T" stamped at the top, and this could be for the springer? Just above the number on this case, you will see LD&Co. Litherland & Davies, Liverpool. I was wondering if any of our members have seen this before on gold or silver case? The watch can still be seen on David Penney's site but is sold. This type of watch was produced to make the watches thinner and could be wound and handset from the rear. This one has a Massey three escapement. The retailer is Joshua Bates and was working in King Street, Huddersfield, between 1814 and 1837.






ANONYMOUS:

Epitaph at Lydford, Devon.

Here lies in a Horizontal position.
The outside case of
George Routleigh, watchmaker,
Whose abilities in that line were an honour to
his profession,
Integrity was the mainspring, and prudence
The regulator
of all the actions of his life,
Humane, generous, and liberal, his hand never stopped
till he had relieved distress:
except when set a-going,
by people who did not know his key:
Even then he was easily set right again.
He had the art of disposing of his time so well,
that his hours glided away in one continual round of
pleasure and delight,
till an unlucky moment put a period to his existence.
He departed this life on November 14, 1802, Aged 57, wound up,
in hopes of being taken in hand by his maker:
and being thoroughly cleaned, repaired, and stet a-going
for the world to come.


So this is to wish you all, a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,

And I hope to see all next year Fully wound up and Ticking.

Allan.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Below a rare set of hallmarks for Chester the "S" for 1836 with the case sponsor´s initials LD for Litherland and Davies, plus the TE&HF for Thomas Ellison & Henry Fishwick all of Liverpool, who were the case makers. This would have been one of the last watches to carry the leopards head, it was not used in 1837. Loomes has Litherland & Davies 1816 to 34 for this firm.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

The Chester hallmark "U" for the year 1838. The year before 1837 Chester dropped the leopard´s head. Notice how the three sheaves are now on the left whereas before there was the leopard´s head. The "CJ" case maker was Christopher Jones of Highfield Street Liverpool.

 

[Rich Newman]

Posting the earliest Chester I have from a Philadelphia-retailed watch by Ephraim Clark. He arrived in Philadelphia from England in 1780. Ephraim and son, Benjamin worked together and succeeded the eminent Philadelphia clock and watchmaker John Wood in 1793 (Wood headed the local guild, The Philadelphia Clock and Watchmakers Company).

Chester date mark "D" for 1800-01 and case makers' "IE" with a lozenge in between for John Ellison.

 

[Robert Stroud]

This is from Joseph Johnson #1072, thought to be around 1815/1816.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Now, this is a strange mark, when I first came across this photograph I thought 1801/02 or 1823/24. So not being sure I got out Priestley 1994 and was surprised, there was no TA in there.
So I reached out for the new copy, and for once Phillip Priestley was also not too sure. It would appear he saw this mark, (and could be this watch) and recorded it 1801/02 or 1823/24 The mark is TA with a dot in the middle for Thomas Adamson with a question mark. Above this, is TA with an asterisk*, also Thomas Adamson and a question mark. Below these two marks, there is T*A* so two asterisks for Thomas Armitt.
(This mark is on a watch made for the Otterman Empire.)


So, for now, I will go with 1823/24.

Allan

 

[John Matthews]

Allan - I agree the mark is probably 1823/24.

The marks for 1800 - 1805 that I have seen have a well defined crown on the leopard's head. The shape of the cartouche surrounding the leopard's head changes from 1824/25, but the few examples of 1823/24 that I have seen, including this example, have a cartouche similar to the immediately preceding years. This makes identification tricky for 1823/24.

If it is 1823/24, (T·A) is probably the mark of Thomas Adamson who was active from about that time (not listed in 1818-1820).

1824 Bains Liverpool

1825 Gores Liverpool

John

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Allan - I agree the mark is probably 1823/24.

John, you probably know I am at the moment researching Danial De St Lue, and on the script of one of his watches on the net it says Gilt case TA, but no photograph. The date is given c1795. I am working on a list, and so far out of 14 watches, only two have a dated hallmark. What is a little annoying many of the cases are gold pair cases, but no info from the sellers, or auction houses? regarding case makers. Slow work this time.

 

[Lychnobius]

View attachment 548309 I put this on from Kieth´s post in the Joseph Johnson thread, not just for the marks which are the same as PL´s post, because again we see JJ for the springer. There was a JJ case-maker in London, James Jackson and later James Jackson & Son who had registered his mark at Chester too. Could he also have been a springer too ??

I have somehow missed this posting of Allan's until now. Together with that of PapaLouies which he cites, it raises an interesting point. Allan interprets the initials JJ (which are clearly not an ordinary sponsorial mark) as those of a springer. When I have seen these initials in such circumstances I have assumed that they are those of the familiar Liverpool maker Joseph Johnson. I may have been too hasty in this and am certainly prepared to reconsider it, but I do note that both the cases mentioned here contain Johnson movements. For the placement of a movement maker's initials in the case, compare the mark IMC often found within the cases (and also on the plates and other movement components) of watches made by the firm of James McCabe between about 1830 and 1860.

Oliver Mundy.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

There is little doubt that that initials found on cases can sometimes be those of other firms. Example a Roskell watch with L& Co/Litherland & Co.).on the case, but no other mark. (We are talking here of early Liverpool watches) Then there are, those seen above with HF or JH and so on, as case makers. These can also be marked JJ, to me that means they were not the case maker as Oliver points out. The work of the springer needs to be looked at. to me, he or she was, the last person to work on the case. I wonder if they also put the movement in the case, (Would the watch fit if his springs did not work when the movement was placed in the case)?, and that´s why I suggested it would be nice if John Matthews were to give us his thoughts on springers, or anyone who might know.

Allan.

 

[John Matthews]

John Matthews were to give us his thoughts on springers

Allan - I cannot add a great deal on springers.

My only observation would be that I inferred from the presence of 'JJ' on cases containing Johnson movements - that this refers to Johnson, but I would not like to say whether it was done by Johnson (the finisher/retailer) or by the case maker who made the case for Johnson. Similarly, I have inferred that 'T&Co' is a mark that we can associate with M I Tobias & Co. When I have seen references to 'springer's marks' they have normally referred to single letters - but I have never researched these.

John

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Having looked in Philip Priestley´s two books, I have to say I do not understand this watch-makers punch.

WM with the dot in the middle. The date letter is Chester 1806/7 which fits with the number of this watch by Robert Roskell. Normally this would have been a Rack lever, but now has an STR. So is it William Mercer or William Maddock? or is 1701 a miss-print in the book?

Regards,

Allan.

 

[John Matthews]

Allan

These hallmarks are Chester 1828/29 - the leopard's head is without a crown. The crown is very obvious on the head of 1806/07 and the cartouche is completely different, having a rounded base. For the two years, the date letter is very similar including the cartouche, but the cartouche on assay office mark and the leopard's head is complete different. The maker's mark is probably that of William Maddock, Goldsmith & watch case maker of Liverpool. he was active at that time. Ridgeway & Priestley record the mark at square 18 on Plate 1, which contains marks from 1701-1841. They were unable to identify whether it was the mark of William Maddock or William Mercer.

See here for the earlier Leopard's head.

John

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Thanks, John,

I would, of course, agree with your observations here, but it sticks in my mind that Maddock listed his mark in 1836, plus its quite clear the cartouche is number three. The letter K is squared on all sides for the years 1806/7 which fits the date of the watch number. I agree with the leopards head not being quite right, but I will know more when it arrives. I did mention to Peter that his watch could be a digit missing, this could be the same. I will tell you all next week.

Allan.

EDIT: Below IE on Brockbanks 2431.

 

[Rich Newman]

Chester 1777. Pair case both have full hallmarks. Maker's mark "IW" with a pellet between and "TG" underneath for John Wyke & Thomas Green, Liverpool. Watch retailed by Thomas Parker of Philadelphia. I think its possible that Wyke & Green acted as his agent in England for importing watches and supplies. FYI, it was Parker that supplied Louis & Clark with their Arnold marine chronometer. This is serial number 3 and has had a hard life. Notice that the foot to the balance cock has been riveted.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

You have given us a puzzle this time Rich. This is, as far as I can tell an unrecorded mark. Loömes gives dates for John Wyke & Thomas Green (Wykes brother-in-Law/ 1772-81. Strange looking marks though. It all fits, Thomas Parker´s first advert in the in "The Clock and Watch-Maker American Advertiser" was 1786. He was looking for an apprentice in 1791. Do you have any more on Parker?
Nice post Rich.

 

[John Matthews]

This is, as far as I can tell an unrecorded mark.

Allan this mark is is in the latest Priestley p. 92 and also in Ridgway and Priestley The marks, although rubbed are as they should be for 1777/78. The maker's mark is recorded on a case from 1775/76.

John

 

[Rich Newman]

This Parker watch is serial number 3 so a good indication of when he actually started in business and is fairly good proof that publications that show his working dates as 1783 to 1817 are wrong. Philip Priestley saw this case; John Wyke & Thomas Green cases are not often seen. Given they were huge suppliers of tools and materials, I'm thinking that they were hesitant to compete with their customer base on home ground but perhaps more inclined to do so on watches destined for foreign markets. A separate question is how a watch dated 1777 got to Philadelphia during the Revolutionary War years but Philadelphia was controlled by the British so perhaps shipping to some degree continued.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi John,

Just seen the above, this pillock eas looking at Birmingham when thinking he was in Chester OOOOOpps

Rich,

I was only indicating the dates in that book, not when he made that watch.

Allan.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

The watch case on post 65 turned up today. Given that the watch has a Massey II and not converted, and the case as the same number on both covers I would say the movement and case were put together in 1828. Who the case maker was is still a conundrum. So too the signed barrel plate. I would say it was made and put there much later, and it was not signed by Robert Roskell. Though just my opinion. One last point the K is in a square like 1808 /09 the K for 1828 has the right side corners rounded.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Not sure I have posted this before, but the date letter is A for 1818/19 and should have a crown on the leopards head, maybe the punch started that way. The case maker is Edward Maddock (II) Another watch by Robert Roskell, a Rack lever with the thirty tooth escape wheel, and 15 seconds dial.
Serial number 28610.

Allan.

 

[John Matthews]

A for 1818/19 and should have a crown on the leopards head, maybe the punch started that way.

Allan - it has a crown. The Leopard's head punch is described in Ridgway & Priestley so ...

From 1799 to1818 the form became less distinct. In 1822 the head was well made without a crown and this mark continued until the mark was discontinued in 1837.​

​

The statement gives the impression that the crown progressively becomes less distinct. From the examples I have collected, I would say that this is generally what is found, but the loss of definition occurs step like and you do sometimes find examples, in some years where the crown is is more distinct, than the majority seen in that year. I suspect this might be explained by the fact that there would a number of punches in use, and some would have been worn more than others.

Here are 3 examples - left to right 1800/01, 1815/16, 1819/20 ...



John

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

John, Thank you for that, it appears I have number two.

Allan.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

This watch was retailed by S. Goldstone Manchester & London. BB Benson Bro. Liverpool Serial number

190311. It was stolöen in Australia. If it shows up please contact the NAWCC. I have put it here because it as a nice set of Chester hallmarks. Rare to see the crown on the left, it is usually above the 18. Looks good though after they stopped using the Leopards head.

Allan.