Cheshire Watch Co Serial Numbers

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Kevin Neathery, Aug 7, 2019.

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  1. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    What I have so far,

    Serial/Model/Size/Jewel/Case
    1660 1 20 7
    3335 1 20 7
    3348 1 20 7
    22611 1 20 7
    24363 1 20 7
    27073 1/2 20 7
    44124 1/2 20 7
    53040 3 18 7 HC
    54525 3 18 7 HC
    55079 3 18 7 HC
    55823 3 18 7 HC
    56980 3 18 7 HC
    57702 3 18 7 HC
    58519 3 18 7 HC
    63094 3 18 7 HC
    63183 3 18 7 HC
    63848 3 18 7 HC
    63896 3 18 7 HC
    64648 3 18 7 OF
    64687 3 18 7 OF
    67065 3 18 7 OF
    70727 3 18 7 OF
    70765 3 18 7 OF
    71746 3 18 7 OF
    73320 3 18 7 OF
    73956 2 20 7
    92421 2 20 7

    From this data it appears that "Model 2" came at the end of the production based on serial numbers. This is also not looking like a case of mixed runs anywhere. The data flows without skipping models. What I designated as "Model 1/2" I did regardless of Bila's notes based on the fact that the serial numbers for M2 is far to the end and is not in line with the 2 examples. It also appears that Cheshire did not mix between HC and OF in the production of M3. I welcome anyone to add to this list and help clear it up some.

    The theory was that Appleton picked up the Cheshire production but I don't believe they did so based only on the M3 or M2 but rather a mix of the 2 models. They used the attached stem design of the M2 because that was the last model the company was producing but used the balance cock method of M3 to create the Appleton design. Being that the last serial falls within the Appleton serial range it is unclear if that was finished by Appleton or by Cheshire. The plates are nickel finished unlike the rest of the Cheshire production. The serial is also almost 20,000 after the previous M2.

    I am proposing that M2 is actually M4 and M1/2 is actually M2. Further to this theory is that both M2 have seconds where M1/2 is like M1 without seconds. Stem attachment is at the location of M1 for M1/2 where the stem attachment on M2 is in the location of the Appleton movements. In other words M2 shares more in common with Appleton than M1/2 and is at the end of the production for Cheshire Watch Co.

    Of course the other theory could be that M2 was actually the company using leftover material....but the one falling into the Appleton range makes it a bit muddy.

    Now one serial will blow all the theory up lol

    If there is one that does it is welcome because nothing can be straight forward.
     
  2. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

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    #37784 2 18 7 OF. I assume its a model 2 as it has no seconds hand. Also, it matches the M2 pictured in the price guide (#32399). Mine has no balance or cock so the jewel count is an assumption too (i.e. junker).-Cort
     
  3. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    Actually 32399 matches what I am calling 1/2 for the moment. If you look at where the stem is attaches there are 2 locations. On 32399 it is further away from the balance cock. This would be more of a HC configuration if it had a seconds hand. Where as the 2 at the end of production has this location at the end of the balance cock. That would be an OF configuration. As to jewel count have never seen one where there were not a cap and hole jewel on the balance cock. So even missing, as long as it has a jeweled pallet would most likely be a 7.

    Please let me know where the stem is attached.

    Based on 32399 I am betting your 37784 will have it attached in a HC configuration like the other 2 1/2 I have listed.
     
  4. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    I think we need to confirm whether the two currently designated Model 2's (at the start and end) are the same watch except with a stem move and dial change to sub-seconds and what size they actually are.It also be advantageous to strip one down to check some arbor and pallet fork configurations as that will be also needed as well. If anyone has one out there from the 80,000-94,000 serial range let us know and post pictures if possible:???:

    I think at present if we keep assigning Model numbers to them we will be committing the same error as what others have done in the past, as the factory did it a different way. So for proper research sake it probably would be better to say that a research model grade has been attributed to each one until more info is forth coming, whether that is the current system that is up for discussion I think. As where the current Modelling system eventuated from I do not know, but with regards to the current info Dad has, the current Model numbers are incorrect, including the current Model 3's designations. I am at present trying to correlate some of this data for him.
     
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  5. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    I am calling into question # 92421. After looking at the dial, it is the same dial as would be on an Appleton with the circular pattern inside. This is the standard Appleton Arabic number dial without the Appleton mark. Further when looking at the movement you can clearly see that the dial is pinned in a location no other Cheshire was. This means the pillar plate was drilled to allow for the dial feet in a different location. There is also how the pivot for the mainspring barrel that is not a simple hole like on the Cheshire but recessed like on Appleton. This watch was finished by Appleton. This also shows that Appleton had some kind of supply of Cheshire parts leftover still.

    Further to my theory that the M3 is not what the Appleton is based on I point to the balance cock design of the 3 watches.

    First a M2 and serial 73956 Cheshire share this design.

    Cheshire M2 Balance.png

    Note the pattern. This pattern is actually complete across the entire balance cock.

    Appleton

    Appleton Balance.png

    Note that the pattern is the same but rather cut off. If this was a M3 that was being used as the base by Appleton then why reuse the balance cock design from an M2 when the M3 already had a fully designed and fully engraved balance cock. I am still of the belief that the last 2 serials (One being finished purely at Appleton) and the one prior are not a M3 but rather a hybrid of M2 and M3. This hybrid design was then modified and used by Appleton as the base of their standard model.

    When looking at the top plate closes to the balance cock on a M3 and an Appleton you also see the plate edge is parallel in shape to the stem of a watch. Where as when you look at the Appleton it is at a further angle shape away from the stem. When My M2 arrives I will remove the balance cock and look at the shape of the plate underneath.

    The Appleton

    20190708_213950.jpg

    The Cheshire M3

    20190127_112511.jpg

    Anther thing to note is that on the the model 1 and 2 and the last 2 serial the center wheel is under the balance where as M3 the center wheel is over the balance.
     
  6. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    Also an interesting note is that the 92421 was set by depressing the crown like on a Model 2. I guess it is possible that the company was going to produce M2 again but open face with seconds in a new run but closed before many could be produced.
     
  7. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    To all the are interested in the Cheshire Watch Co movements the correct designations re: identification are as follows;

    "There was no "Model Designation" assigned by the Factory for the first Watch they produced which was a 20 Size, they were only ever referred to as "The Cheshire Watch" in Sales Literature through their exclusive Sales Agent L.W.Sweet.

    When the 2nd type of Cheshire Watch was produced, this is the one with the "Cut Top Plate" near the balance cock and was actually a 20 Size, the factory to differentiate between the first watch produced and the second they designated the terms of only; "Old Model" and "New Model", this applied to their parts listings to ensure the correct pieces were ordered for your watch at the time.

    They then proceeded to produce the stemless 18 Size movement that would fit a normal American 18 Size case, this being more popular for the jobbers and a move to try and increase sales probably. These watches were given a combined identification system along the lines of the earlier American Watch Company products and the Marion/ United States Watch Company used for their early movements as well.

    Whether the Watch is a Hunter or and Open Face it had the designation of "3d Series", and to differentiate between the Hunter and Open Face when ordering parts they then used "No21" for the Hunter and "No25" for the Open Face movements."


    At a later date Dad will write up the above info (with my assistance) as well as a lot of other material about the Cheshire Watch Company for all that are interested and maybe a page for it in the encyclopedia if the Message Board Admin Guys give permission:) All comments are welcome on the above.

    erin
     
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  8. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    I wonder why 21 and 25. 3rd series makes sense, makes me wonder if there was a internal ref to the first to as series 1 and 2.
     
  9. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    I or Dad have no Idea Kevin, as for an internal reference we have not seen one as yet, still digging so you never know:)
     
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  10. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Kevin,

    Neat info, keep it coming.

    Before we go too crazy on models, serial number runs, etc., I think that much more data needs to be collected (especially serial numbers). Also, the early Cheshires have 4 jewels (my recollection is that the pallet and rollers are not stones, but I don't have an example at hand to verify.)

    Bila makes reference to the series designations which were used in period material catalogs. I have a copy of such somewhere and will post it (unless Bila does so first).

    Here are few early catalog listings for Cheshire. They date (in order) from 1887, 1888 and 1890. The 1890 one is especially insightful.

    img016.jpg img015.jpg img017.jpg
     
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  11. PatH

    PatH National Program Chair
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    Hoping this fits into the discussion and that someone can help provide insight - from what I have found, the watch first put into production was designed by D.A.A. Buck (of Waterbury Watch Co fame) rather than the Hotchkiss design originally proposed. I've found some later patents for stems, etc. by Guernsey, Yarrington and Oehl where Cheshire was the assignor, but have not been able to find a patent by Buck, or assigned to Cheshire, on the original design. Does anyone have patent numbers or historical references for the various models?

    Thanks!
     
  12. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    You are correct Greg, the New & Old Models (1st & 2nd Produced were mostly four jewels), a few from the initial production of the Old Model actual had 2 hole Jewels with steel end caps only to my & Dad's knowledge, this was changed very quickly due to the fact that the cost difference was negligible. I am slowly getting together Dad's notes on these and have a lot more serial numbers to ad to Kevin's first list soon. Just trying at present to find more before posting to give all of us a better idea on production.

    Looking at the current serial figures I am of the opinion that the amount that was produced by Cheshire before shutting was less then what has been written previously, this assumption (and only an assumption at present and could change as more info comes to light) is also based on the years of operation and daily production figures of the Company gleaned from Historical periodicals of the day, these appear to not ad up at first glance. Kevin and I have spoken briefly about this and have the opinion that they might have been some skulduggery/exaggeration of the production output of the Factory, this theory will be proven or dis-proven by finding more serial numbers.

    Excellent advertisements and much appreciated that you have shown them here:)

    Erin
     
  13. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    #13 Bila, Aug 10, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
    As you said that 3rd advertisement is very interesting, especially with the assignment of Numbers for the movements and the lateness in the Companies life, I have gone through 100's of periodicals of the day and have found only one reference to the Cheshire in the solid Gold case, but no where have I seen a grading system attributed to it:)

    I wonder if this was done to differentiate between the New Model (this would be with sub seconds dial) in the Nickle cases compared to the New model in Gold cases with the different engravings, as the Nickle and Gold Cases were supposedly made in house? All the parts listings I have found only show the previous model designations I have listed.
     
  14. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    #14 Bila, Aug 10, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
    Your are right Pat in regard to the Hotchkiss design not being used, in what I have read it was dropped due to its impracticality, after the dropping of his design D.A.A. Buck was appointed as Superintendent of Production and designed Cheshire first marketable watch. It was interesting that the Cheshire firm had paid HotchKiss supposedly $50,000 for this cylinder escapement design, appears to be an exceptional amount of monies for the day?
     
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  15. PatH

    PatH National Program Chair
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    Is this 1889 Jewelers' Circular reference what you have found re the solid gold case? It's the only one I've found to date.
    Cheshire Watch Company placed on mkt new Cheshire in beautiful solid gold case, plain and designed. Lively trade continues for new nickel and their 18-sz hunting Nos. 21 and 25 are selling well. Enlarged train room and plate room have increased production from 75 to 100, and future is bright.
     
  16. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    Yes Pat that sounds like it, from memory that information was provided by Cheshire Watch Co's sole Selling Agent, L.W. Sweet. From what I have seen from Mr Sweet there appears to be an over embellishment of the facts re; production and how well things were going. This over embellishment also was carried on with during the failing end days of the Remington Watch Co as well and the common denominator was also our Mr. Sweet:)

    On another note with regard to Mr Oehl of the Cheshire Watch Co, he was appointed to the role of Superintendent of Production (Manager) after the resignation of D.A.A. Buck in 1885, on his appointment he was given the task of modifying the existing "Old Model" Cheshire to a "New model" with a sub seconds dial.
     
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  17. PatH

    PatH National Program Chair
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    This might help explain some of the volume numbers - year is unknown for this list of premiums for selling T.B. Jackson publications. Of the 6 watches offered for varying sales levels, 4 were Waltham, 1 was Swiss, and 1 Cheshire. I'll have to check the other premium lists that I have accumulated and see if there are any others that include Cheshires.

    20190810_204944.jpg 20190810_205034.jpg
     
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  18. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    This date year is incorrect Pat, my mistake, D.A.A. Buck started at Cheshire in 1885, resigned in 1887, by 1888 he started his own Company, the "D. A. A. Buck Company" which manufactured toys and novelties:)
     
  19. PatH

    PatH National Program Chair
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    Thanks for noting that change here in this thread so it's available for all. We could definitely have a D.A.A. Buck thread that could fill a book!

    Pat
     
  20. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    The Cheshire arrived today. Pics to follow. At first I thought that it had to be a 16s. Then I measured the watch....47.44mm.

    20190812_212135.jpg

    20190812_212148.jpg

    20190812_212242.jpg

    20190812_212407.jpg
    The "M2" next to the "M3"
     
  21. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    On the topic of old model and new model. It is being stated that the "New Model" were ones with a seconds hand. But the serials at hand, and possibly the ones Erin/Bila have, show that the ones with the cut top plate "M2" are without seconds. The only current "New Model/M2" with seconds are the last 2 serials. I hope the numbers Erin and Bila have will clear this up some.
     
  22. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    Still ongoing research, some more info;

    I am still correlating serials for Dad, but going by what we have so far viewed it appears that Kevin's original observations with regard to the non-mixing of hunter versus open face regarding the 3d Series No 21 or No25 graded watches (Model 3 in today's popular terminology, stem-less and fit a normal 18 Size American case) is correct. Based on the serials gathered so far there appears to be a short run of Open Face as the initial start of the 3d Series and then a long run of Hunters and then only another run of Open Face to finish off the Series. Also there appears to be no overlap of the different watches produced up to and including the 3d Series when viewing the current serial number record we have on file. The serial blocks we have (currently are only approximates, start and end of blocks rounded from current serial number available except the very last, these are based on observations to date and will change with new findings) for the different production models;

    201 - 25,000 (20 Size Uncut-Plate No Sub Dial);

    25,001 - 48,000 (20 Size Cut-Plate No Sub Dial);

    48,001 – 73,500 (18 Size 3d Series both Hunter & Open Face)

    73,501-92,421 (at present Size & designation unknown, also unknown if Remington / Appleton Watch Co manufactured and sold some of these later serial numbered watches? Periodicals of the time talk about 3,000 finished watches and a quantity of unfinished material being sold with plant and equipment after Cheshire’s demise. I have also seen quotes of 5,000 & 8,000 finished watches being the number mentioned in some other quarters).

    With regard to the later 2 serial numbers in Kevin's serial list in his first post, these will need more investigation via a hands on inspection of one to check size and parts for comparison with the earlier made movements, but it is very possible that the later serials are the "New Model", after going through most of the available data I can find. Some of the reasons are the appointment of Mr Oehl to Overseer of production of a new model watch with a sub-dial in 1887 this is late in the tenure of the Cheshire Watch Company and reflects those later serials, as does Greg's Cheshire advertisement from 1890 which states "sunk second enamel dial"

    Also, I have found information from periodicals of the time mentioning the release of Cheshire's "New Model" in a 10k gold-filled case during April 1887, this date was extended due to production woes and the Gold Cheshire in 1889-90, also some of these periodicals also mention a nickel movement being made with sub-seconds (although it was supposed to be stem-less, but to our knowledge no such creature), this appears to correspond with movements in the range of serial #92421 in Kevin's original serial list post, before this I would say that they were made in gilt as per serial number#73956. The time-frame also corresponds with Greg's advertisement from 1890. I have a copy of a parts list which lists the Parts for the New, Old and 3d Series movements, which is from 1895-96, this is after the supposed demise of the Cheshire Watch Factory.

    Our original thoughts were that this part's list was pertaining to the fist 20 size uncut-plate Cheshire Watch and the following 20 Size cut-plate model Cheshire which are more commonly referred to by the current Horological Community including Dad and myself as Models 1 & 2. This was originally based on a pull down inspection by our watch guy to check differences between the 20 size uncut & cut plate version Cheshire's, on inspection there were differences in wheel arbors, some wheel design/shape and pallet fork arbors between the two, the reason for our initial thoughts.

    We have now revised that assumption based on the continuing discussion on this message board, data I have found in periodicals of the time and the dates of advertising and part's lists. it is more likely that the later published part's list I refer to above is for the 20 Size Cut-plate Model (this was the 2nd production watch by Cheshire) being called the "Old Model" and as Kevin first thought those later serial numbers were, the "New Model". Also in our opinion after viewing most documents I could find and Greg's advertisements from 1887, 1888 and 1890 which shows watches No 40, 41 and No 42 pertains to the type of case they were retailed in, then actual being a different watch (movement) model. Please be aware that this is subject to change if more serial numbers and periodical information/advertisements come to light and if we can source one of these later made watch movements for inspection. All of the above is only my & Dad's take on the info currently available, we have only had a very muted response so far with regard to serial numbers, only 3 in fact reported since our request here and elsewhere, could anyone that knows of or has record of serial numbers for the Cheshire Watch Company please share their numbers :)


    Erin
     
  23. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    Based on the measurements I did on my cut plate old model CWC that I recently purchased and on the measurements by Erin on 2 watches (both old model uncut and cut plates) I believe that the watches should be designated a 21 size. At appx 47.43mm +/- 1mm the size does not match what a 20s is. Erin confirmed that a early Waltham\Dennison 20s is actually smaller. Based on this information, going further I will be referring them as a 21 size watch. Is there any reason we should not update our thinking on the size? This will only refer to the "Old Model" cut and uncut plates but not to the 18 size model or the late "New Model" as the size of the last ones has not been confirmed as of yet.

    Being that they were being finished by Appleton I suspect they are actually 18 size at the end and thus a different watch than the "Old Model". Naming convention will need to be further ironed out.

    This is fun :)
     
  24. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    BUMP! Still looking for serial Numbers:)
     
  25. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    Just bumping this up, thank you icon_smile.gif

    Erin
     
  26. Kleptocratic debt serf

    Sep 28, 2019
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    Serial number : 59139

    CheshirePWpic1.jpg


    Hi, I just joined this forum after stumbling across your thread... I recently acquired a Cheshire pocket watch and was searching the interwebs for information as Pockwatchdatabase.com did not have much to tell me about this particular watch...

    I did have a couple quick questions, if you guys could point me in the right direction that would be most appreciated:

    1) The Cheshire pocket watch will wind, run and keep time well, but before it will run I have to give the balance wheel a quick gentle nudge - otherwise winding alone is not enough... Any suggestions / forum threads I should check out?
    2) Is there any good source material/reference books if I wanted to buy some watch repair tools and pick up some repair skills as a hobbyist/amateur? I have acquired a number of pocket watches that aren't running. Some are probably valuable enough that paying a real expert to clean or repair them makes sense... Though a number of them are less valuable and paying someone to repair them makes little to no sense, these are the ones I intend to work on or better yet learn from.

    Thanks!
     
  27. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    #27 Bila, Sep 28, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
    Hi Kleptocratic debt serf,

    Welcome to the board and thank you for the serial number, we already have that one in the database but it is great to see another response to our request for numbers. If you see or find anymore please let us know, what you have is a 3d Series No. 21 Hunter 7 jewel Cheshire, appears to be in a Faux Box-hinged case. As for the problem in regard to the watch it can be a number of things, these include but not restricted to; lubrication dry thus not allowing enough power to the train, out of beat or incorrect roller jewel pin to pallet fork clearance. The first thing I would do is have it serviced:)

    If you do a search on the motherboard you will find a plethora of information and recommendations on watch repairing and what other members prefer with regard to repair books. You will see that people all have there own preferences on books and their different authors, as well as their preferences for certain lubricants that they use. If it was me I would grab yourself a low jeweled running Waltham or Elgin 16 Size pocket watch to practice on, that way you learn to pull it apart and re-assemble with out damage (hopefully) this way, you know that it was a functioning watch at the start and also should be when you are finished:)

    Erin
     
  28. Kleptocratic debt serf

    Sep 28, 2019
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    Hello Erin,

    Thanks for the prompt reply and suggestions, I will definitely search through the forum(s) in my hunt for relevant repair and cleaning information. I also appreciate the suggestion to use a working low jewel Waltham or Elgin pocket watch in my learning endeavor, that is a great idea.

    Thanks, James
     

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