Chauncey Jerome 8 day Ogee- date and other info appreciated

[Kelly]

I recently purchased my first ogee, a functional and reasonably (to me) appealing 8 day Chauncey Jerome. I'm looking for feedback from folks more knowledgeable than I am to help establish the approximate manufacturing date, and to confirm some of the details I have from the seller and my limited exam.

I've attached pictures of the clock and mechanism, including some detail shots of the mechanism signature and label. The seller indicated (and I can confirm) that the face is a replacement: this is obvious due to the non-conforming arbour holes, craftily covered with masking tape and paint However, the face looks more or less "period" to me- my guess would be that it came from another clock of the same era. The hands also don't look right to me, although that is mostly based on the fact that they look too "good" (clean/well formed).

The painted glass is also supposedly a replacement- I can't tell how recent, but it looks more than a few decades old. The mechanism and case, including the label, look original. The seller dated the clock to the mid 1800's. My little bit of reading around the forums and elsewhere suggests 1840-1850, but that's mainly just from looking at pictures of similar clocks and their labels.

I like the clock: it was bought running, was shipped nicely packed (two for six on eBay), and will be staying with me. But I like to have a bit of a "history" so I can tell guests something about what is hanging on my wall

Any insight or comments would be greatly appreciated- thanks!

 

[NECCnut]

I'm no expert here, but I thought most Ogee clocks were 30hr weight-driven?

 

[laprade]

NECC;There are also 8 day.


Kelly,

The dial is from a 30hr clock. I posted two cases last year, which were from the UK, and cited the UK rule; the single door clocks are 30 hr and the two door 8 day.

I was surprized by the reaction; in the US, 8 days, can also be in "one door" clocks, and a lot of board members had never seen a two door ogee.

From what I read in a book back in the 70s, The Old American clock, published before that time, the veneer is "American Rose wood". The book also gave the statistics, of how many barrels of nails, sq yards of veneer etc. were used by one of the makers in a a year!

Since then (70s) a lot of better research has brought up a lot of more reliable info.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

The picture of the factory on the label seems to indicate a date ca. 1850. By 1856, Jerome had failed and New Haven bought him ought, eventually owning all his assets by early 1857. Jerome moved on to Waterbury to work for Benedict and Burnham, who eventually formed the Waterbury Clock Co. Jerome also worked elsewhere but never recovered the fortune he had lost.

The tablet may well be a replacement, but it is nicely done and suits the clock. A pity about the dial; masking tape is a new one on me, probably not an appropriate repair.

His autobiography makes an interesting read as does Chris Bailey's From Rags to Riches, the Story of Chauncey Jerome.

 

[harold bain]

NECC;There are also 8 day.


Kelly,

The dial is from a 30hr clock. I posted two cases last year, which were from the UK, and cited the UK rule; the single door clocks are 30 hr and the two door 8 day.

I was surprized by the reaction; in the US, 8 days, can also be in "one door" clocks, and a lot of board members had never seen a two door ogee.

From what I read in a book back in the 70s, The Old American clock, published before that time, the veneer is "American Rose wood". The book also gave the statistics, of how many barrels of nails, sq yards of veneer etc. were used by one of the makers in a a year!

Since then (70s) a lot of better research has brought up a lot of more reliable info.

Good eye, laprade. You can see a second set of wind holes that have been covered, indicating it was indeed from a 30 hour clock originally.
NECC, the majority of clocks (OG and others)made when brass movements were pushing wooden movements out of the picture were 30 hour. It was mostly economics, more people would buy a 30 hour clock at a lower price than would buy an 8 day at a higher price.

 

[Kevin W.]

Hi Kelly, nice clock, and a good find a 8 day clock.
When you say hang on your wall do you mean on a shelf?
These 8 day clocks have heavy weights and if one breaks loose it will smash the bottom out of the clock.
I have a Chauncey, mine is a 30 hour clock.
Harold when you say 2 winding holes indicate it came from a 30 hour clock, i dont understand that.
I have a 8 day ogee with 2 winding arbours, or do mean their locations?
Kelly you will find many ogee clocks are around and very reasonably priced, they run well and keep time very well as well.

 

[harold bain]

Kevin, look close at the dial. You can tell it's been altered to fit the eight day movement. You can see where the original holes were.

 

[Kevin W.]

I understand now Harold, thanks, it,s the location of the holes that exist compared to the ones taped over.
Kelly i may have a old dial that could fit your clock, pm me if interested.

 

[Richard T.]

Greetings all,

I have not seen a two door eight day ogee in the 40 years that I have been associated with clocks. They may be there, just haven't seen one.

Below are some photos of the 8 day Chauncey Jerome ogee that I have.

The dial is a replacement of the proper type, just new. The hands are too small (short) but I haven't looked for a better pair yet.

The space between the lower tablet (replacement) and the upper dial glass on mine was painted glass with design. As you can see, someone tried to clean it and removed a large portion of the paint.

The movement below looks to be the same as that posted by Kelly except the trademark on mine is in the center just below the verge.


Best,

Richard T.

 

[specop]

30-hour OGs are the most common and, in their standard size, almost always 26" high. They are usually single door but I guess there is always an exception to the rule. 8-day OGs come in 2 door and single door versions. E N Welch being an example of a 2-door 8-day OG maker. Almost all 30-hour OGs have a hole in the upper back case for hanging on a wall if so desired. However, 8-day OGs should never be hung on a wall due to their very heavy weights. They are principally a shelf clock.
Some makers put spring driven movements in standard 30-hour OG cases and Brewster sold the same driven by his cast iron backplate movement. Exceptionally, there are fusee driven movements in standard 30-hour cases usually made by John Birge. The first thing to look at in any OG is the paper at the rear inside of the case as this will tell you what else to expect as well as probably dating the clock.

 

[Kelly]

Wow: lots of great information- thank you folks!

First things first: I need to put this on a shelf. It has a metal hanger hole (quite old) screwed into the back, but from what I read this should not be relied upon to hold the clock. Problem is: this tall/narrow case would be very unstable on a shelf, and I have cats in the house who like to investigate such things. So I'm thinking I'll use a shelf to hold the weight, and the metal hanger hole to keep it from being knocked over.

And yes, the weights are massive: I haven't weighed them, but I would speculate that they are over 10 pounds each.

Regarding the face- it is interesting to hear that it is from a 30 hour clock. I'd like to replace it with a period correct face from an 8 day clock (i.e.: one that fits), but I'm guessing it might be hard to find one in good shape? Veritas says he might have one, so a private message is on its way!

Regarding two door versus one door: well, mine is obviously two doors, so from some of the comments here it seems like this is uncommon in the U.S. clocks, but common in the ones that went overseas? Interesting, but I'm not sure what that means. I guess Richard T. can now say he's seen one

Thanks to Laprade, it sounds like the case is "American rosewood" veneer- I'm terrible at identifying wood, so that is good information. Thanks!

The age guesstimates match what the seller told me: sometime before 1857. The seller said "1840s", so that's probably not too far off. Thanks, Steven, for your comments re: the tablet- I thought it looked pretty good, and is in quite decent shape (only a couple of scratches, and no cracks). The subject matter (Hartford's "State House") seems appropriate for a clock made in New Haven, Connecticut.

And thanks, Richard T., for your photos: I like comparing the structure of the case and so forth, and seeing the similarities! The mechanism is very close to identical: interesting that the maker's mark is repositioned. I suppose if you had tons of example mechanisms that would help date it.

Now I'm off to find an appropriate shelf!

 

[lpbp]

As has been pointed out you have a thirty-hour dial, converted to eight-day. Of the several OG's that I own, I have thirty-hour one door weight driven, and spring driven, with and without alarms. I also have miniature thirty-hours in single door, with and without alarms, and some with fusees. The eight-day are in OG and OOG style cases, yours is OOG. Single door versus double, in my collection 3 to 1, single to double, which is what I am most familiar seeing.

 

[laprade]

An English market 30hr 1 door, and an 8 day case, 2 door, English market.

generally speaking, but not gospel, the 30 hr key holes are in the centre, while the 8 day holes are in the chapter ring, or outside it.

The over large centre hole, is used for models that have the alarum setter on the cannon pinion.

The two tone finish on the 8 day, is part of a "lesson" on the application of Raw linseed-turps-and meths, reviving mix. What you see was done six months ago!

 

[Jerome collector]

Kelly,
Based on my research on labels used in Jerome 30-hr clocks, yours likely dates to 1846-1855. And if I had to guess, I'd put it in the middle of that range, rather than at either end. But that's just speculation on my part. Your label is distinguished from similar 30-hr clock labels in having "EIGHT DAY" above "PATENT BRASS CLOCKS." For this period, there aren't any features of the labels or movements that permit more precise dating. The printer's address can sometimes help. Benham worked from at least three locations: 68 Orange St (date unknown, but probably around 1844 or 45), 55 Orange St (from around 1845 to 1855 or 56), and in the Glebe building (after 1855 or 56). With respect to the dial, when looking for a replacement, I would suggest getting one without a scalloped center hole. Although I can't say this with absolute certainty, scalloped center holes tend to be found on later clocks. At least for 30-hr Jerome clocks from this period, I'm not aware of any that originally had a scalloped hole. Though I wouldn't be surprised if that provokes a vigorous rebuttal from others. As with many things on these old clocks, it's often difficult to nail down exactly when something was introduced.

 

[Kevin W.]

I have 2 dials that are metal, but are scalloped.
Kelly these are the ones i told you about.

 

[Richard T.]

I have 2 dials that are metal, but are scalloped.
Kelly these are the ones i told you about.

Your dials are for 30 hour clocks. If you notice the winding arbors on the 8 day movements are lower and actually in part of the" V" and "VII" on the dial.

Best,

Richard T.

 

[Kevin W.]

Thanks Richard, i could have compared it to my 30 hour ogee, should have first.

 

[owen.or]

Here is a picture of an 8-day 2 door C. Jerome ogee from my collection.It was purchased many years ago at an auction which imported antiques primarily from England,so it would make sense that this clock was created for the export market.Benham was the printer of the paper.He was in the Glebe building at the time.Note that this clock has a very old wall hanger indicating someone did have the confidence to hang it. The weights on mine appear to be of the correct period.They weigh about 6 lbs. each.The glass features a Greek Revival building similar to New York's Custom House.The style of architecture was most popular c.1820-1850 so it would be appropriate for a clock made mid century. David "owen.or"

 

[Kelly]

Thanks Richard, i could have compared it to my 30 hour ogee, should have first.

Thanks for the photos, Kevin: I guess my private message with the measurements is sort of pointless now, but looking at your dial photos I can see the difference between yours and mine. When I'm looking for a dial I'll have a quick visual cue ("do the numbers intersect the arbor holes?")- not a replacement for measurements, but a nice indicator.

As for whether the center is scalloped or not, I wouldn't have been fussy. Correct or not, I sort of like seeing the escapement move

Owen, thanks for your photos! I'll have to take a closer look at the printer's name on my label. It isn't as "pristine" as yours, so I'm not sure how much I can make out, but I'll give it a go. Mine has a hanger as well: a stamped piece of iron screwed into the top of the case with a large 1/2" or so circular hole . Yours looks much more "rustic"!

Jerome Collector, I'm guessing that your comments being all relate to 30 hour Jeromes is another indicator that 8 day clocks are less common. Your mention of the printer location and relation to the clock manufacture date is very helpful. Getting a better look at that label will be my new project for tomorrow!

 

[Kelly]

Jerome Collector, ... [y]our mention of the printer location and relation to the clock manufacture date is very helpful. Getting a better look at that label will be my new project for tomorrow!

I checked the label: the printer is listed at 55 Orange street, which puts my clock in the 1845 to 1855 or thereabouts range. Thanks, Jerome: it is great to narrow the timespan down!

 

[Jerome collector]

Kelly,
Expanding a little bit on dials found on 30-hr and 8-day brass movement clocks: the three basic types were large circular opening, small hole (just large enough for the minute arbor and cannon tube to poke through; as in owen.or's example above), and scalloped opening. A less common type has an opening that looks like an eclipsed moon (kind of hard to describe). Some clocks with 8-day strap movements had another opening above the cannon tube that permitted access to the escapement. It would be entirely appropriate for your clock to have a dial with a large circular opening, which would allow you to see the escapement. Keep an eye out on eBay for one, but be very careful about distances between winding arbors and minute arbor.

You can see examples of all the dial types mentioned above on my webpage (http://home.earthlink.net/~mmbailey39/index.html).

8-day clocks are much less common than 30-hr. This just a guess, but I would say no more than 10% of production consisted of 8-day clocks.

 

[Kelly]

Thanks, Jerome Collector (Mike?)!

Your site is full of pictures of some fantastic examples of Chauncey Jerome and contemporary manufacturer's clocks. To see all the different "riffs" on the same basic style is extremely educational- kudos from this novice!

Curious question: I see you have attributed a number of the tablets in your clocks to a particular artist (e.g.: William Fenn). Is this attribution based on style, or are you able to identify a signature? Learning how to tell the real pieces from the "recent" replacements is hard enough for me, let alone figuring out who might have created the thing... so I'm wondering if there are some clues you are picking up.

 

[Jerome collector]

Kelly,

I don't consider myself an expert on William Fenn, but his tablets have a certain quality about them. The best source of info on Fenn can be found in two booklets published by the American Clock & Watch Museum: Clock Decorating Stencils of Mid-19th Century Connecticut and More Clock Decorating Stencils of Mid-19th Century Connecticut. The stencils were handed down in the Fenn family, so there's no question of origin. None of the tablets in my clocks (aside from the Tom Moberg reproductions) are signed. I don't think Fenn signatures are known, but I could be wrong.

Mike

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Kelly,

I don't consider myself an expert on William Fenn, but his tablets have a certain quality about them. The best source of info on Fenn can be found in two booklets published by the American Clock & Watch Museum: Clock Decorating Stencils of Mid-19th Century Connecticut and More Clock Decorating Stencils of Mid-19th Century Connecticut. The stencils were handed down in the Fenn family, so there's no question of origin. None of the tablets in my clocks (aside from the Tom Moberg reproductions) are signed. I don't think Fenn signatures are known, but I could be wrong.

Mike

Agree with Jerome Collector's recommendation to obtain copies of the aforementioned publications. The illustrations are from the actual stencils.

Fenn did cut his signature into one of his stencils. There is an illustration of a Jerome OG with that "signed" glass on the inside of the front cover of one of those 2 publications, can't remember which. I owned a great Jerome OG with an even better example of that glass. Alas, I sold it.

The need for Fenn's tablets waned as other cheaper mass produced methods supplanted his meticulous work. Rather late in life, he became a gentleman farmer, married and had a family. As a result, his daughter lived well into the 20th Century. She used some of his stencils to "reproduce" glasses. She later donated I believe the bulk of his stencils to the ACWM in Bristol, CT where they now reside.

For more of this discussion, click on : https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=58450

RM