$ Charles Oudin Paris - Chronometer with lever escapement...

Halda Sweden

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A pocket watch signed "Charles Oudin Paris" with high quality movement with spherical hairspring and special regulator..

This watch is a bit special made approx. 1870. There been an discussion wether the movement was made by Audemars.

More information would bee of great interest.
Best regards
Peter

P1520855.JPG P1520853.JPG P1520850.JPG P1520844.JPG P1520843.JPG P1520835.JPG ABD9A67FA90E1A3DA85B825783808AB9 - kopia.jpg
 

Halda Sweden

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Hi Graham,

I hope you can see the photos. I have more photos
The cuvette is marked with Oudins(?)number 23117. The movementnumber is 2268 and this number is also on the inside of the case.

Rgds
Peter
 

gmorse

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Hi Peter,

I hope you can see the photos.
Thanks, I've found them in the attachments library in your profile. Also, all the images except the the first one are just thumbnails and too small to see any great detail, which this very fine watch certainly deserves.

EDIT: I've just seen that they're now in the post, although they're all still thumbnails except the close-up of the balance.

Regards,

Graham
 

Dr. Jon

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As pmwas wrote, WOW!

The watch looks to me to be free sprung and the assembly that looks like a regulator looks to me to be an arrangement for adjusting and locking the beat adjuster. I can determine whether it is free sprung from the photos but shereical balance springs usually are.

The details may be what is patented and explained on the patent.

The base caliber looks to me to be LeCoultre which Audemars used but the lever does not appear to have their signature device on it. This is not a final verdict but I do not think this is Louis Audemars.

Louis Audemars did not use this ebauche for their superior grade work and this is a superior grade movement. The stepped balance wheel looks liek Audemaras work, but it could have come form another source. The firm did a lot of unique items so I cannot rule them out but I think this is not one of theirs.

One minor issue. One of the screws on the cap jewel over the lever is wrong.
 

gmorse

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Hi Jon,

...the assembly that looks like a regulator looks to me to be an arrangement for adjusting and locking the beat adjuster.
I did wonder about that mechanism, but the red arrow indicates what seems to me to be index pins and the green looks like the stud, although there's something attached to the side of the cock behind that; is it perhaps a resilient stud? The regulator assembly appears to have a scale engraved on its rim as well. We really need to see better pictures of that whole area.

kopia_edit.jpg

Regards,

Graham
 
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Benjamin E.

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That is delightful! Odd that there is keyless work on a key wind and set watch. Actually, there are no key holes in the cuvette. Hmmm.
 

Halda Sweden

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Hi Peter,



Thanks, I've found them in the attachments library in your profile. Also, all the images except the the first one are just thumbnails and too small to see any great detail, which this very fine watch certainly deserves.

EDIT: I've just seen that they're now in the post, although they're all still thumbnails except the close-up of the balance.

Regards,

Graham
Sorry, long time since I used this forum. I try one more time with better (larger) photos...

Best regards Peter

BB4D89CE5CF2A9134E148653A666B64F.jpg ABD9A67FA90E1A3DA85B825783808AB9.jpg
 
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gmorse

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Hi Peter,

Thanks for the new pictures. Now, may I ask for some more please? A view of the other side of the cock to show the stud and what's behind it, and one from straight above the regulator square, (if that's what it is), would be very helpful. I'm unclear as to the function of the two rods and how they connect with the regulator; do they slide inside the square section parts next to the top jewel setting, or are they moved in and out by a cam arrangement?

Regards,

Graham
 

gmorse

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Hi Peter,

I see we crossed messages then, the pictures show more of what I was requesting, thanks.

Regards,

Graham
 

pmwas

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Hi Paul,



Yes, and its pins are not as straight as they should be . . .

Regards,

Graham
:) I saw it. Maybe the upper coil is a little bit out of shape, and having to adjust a hairspring like this - I’d have got could feet as well ;) so I can understand that ;)
 

John Matthews

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Graham - the movement of the regulator appears to be limited by the slot in the cock. I have never handled, and I have only seen photographs of a limited number of spherical balances springs - is this typical of the amount of regulation that is made available and if so, is this because of the characteristics of a spherically coiled springs?

upload_2020-8-15_23-20-54.png

John

EDIT - We have all been posting in parallel. If both of the regulation pins move radially, I don't follow the assertion that the 'change to the rate affected by such a mechanism is very slight indeed' .
 
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gmorse

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Hi Peter,

Your post of the old Pieces of Time catalogue has answered the question of how the regulator works very precisely; the two index pins are moved together or apart by a slight amount by that elaborate and very beautiful piece of engineering. Whether this is in fact a better form of regulator in terms of its smaller effect on isochronism is debatable, (any modification of the effective length of the balance spring risks degrading the optimum profile), but it's a very pretty thing even if it is something of a dead end.

I notice that Dr. Crott attributes their example to Charles Oudin and Louis Audemars.

Regards,

Graham
 
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gmorse

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Hi John,

the movement of the regulator appears to be limited by the slot in the cock. I have never handled, and I have only seen photographs of a limited number of spherical balances springs - is this typical of the amount of regulation that is made available and if so, is this because of the characteristics of a spherically coiled springs?
As Jon commented earlier in this thread, spherical balance springs are usually free-sprung, as are helical ones, as well as being fiendishly difficult to make. The action of the regulator system on this one is rare and one wonders not that it was done well but that it was done at all.

Regards,

Graham
 
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Halda Sweden

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Hi,
thank you for quick and interesting replies!

Yes the function seems clear. The sphercial hairspring and movement (ebauché) differs in my watch compared to the two other examples..

I was told that Mr Paul Audemars ( Audemars UK) is one of the writers in this forum. Perhaps he can check his archives? I tried to send a message to him some days ago...

Also if this rather complex system was covered by a patent it would be interesting to know by who? ("Bréveté" - on the cuvette)

Best rgds from Sweden
Peter
 
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gmorse

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Hi John,

If both of the regulation pins move radially, I don't follow the assertion that the 'change to the rate affected by such a mechanism is very slight indeed' .
I wouldn't describe the effect of altering the pin spacing necessarily as 'very slight', a change in the spacing of half the thickness of the spring can make quite a difference, although we don't know how far these pins can move.

Peter, yes, Paul Audemars is a member here.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

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we don't know how far these pins can move.
Is it not the case that the amount of radial movement is limited by the radial depth of the slot?

The arm appears to support both pins, if so, they are moved as a pair, as described in 'Gold Lever with Helical Spring' - intuitively I would have thought that would have a significant impact.

John
 

Halda Sweden

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I also try to find out more regarding this watch previous owners. Such a high quality watch wasn´t cheap soo the original owner must have been rather wealthy ...............

There is a label on the underside of the original(?) box. And we believe according to the label that it once belonged to: Willem Frederik Jonkheer van Lennep, born in Amsterdam 1894. He died in Copenhagen 1950. The gold case has a rather recent engraving: "Christian Juel 1982", perhaps a relative to Willem Fredrik Jonkheer..?

If the watch was made around 1870, the first owner was perhaps the successful lawyer Maurits Jacob Jonkheer van Lennep, who was born in 1830 and is the grandfather of Willem Fredrik.

There is a picture of the lawyer;

Dagboeken | Stichting van Lennep

So far everything is just very loose hypotheses of course...
Rgds
Peter

P1520871.JPG DAEAFCF20BBB249AC6BD9D7F60341FA2.jpg
 
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gmorse

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Hi John,

The arm appears to support both pins,
The essence of this is that the pins don't move in the same direction as a pair, but so that the gap between them widens or narrows. To achieve this, each pin is mounted in a separate arm, held at the opposite end in contact with the cam by the two springs.

I'm sure that this would indeed have been an expensive watch when originally bought.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

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To achieve this, each pin is mounted in a separate arm, held at the opposite end in contact with the cam by the two springs.
Graham - appreciate this - it is just I cannot see two arms. Can you see them in the photograph of this watch or are do you have a separate reference illustrating the mechanism?

John
 

gmorse

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Hi John,

...it is just I cannot see two arms. Can you see them in the photograph of this watch or are do you have a separate reference illustrating the mechanism?
I don't have a separate reference, but I can see that each arm terminates in a small boss which holds its pin, with the left-hand arm on the outside and the right-hand one on the inside, and the gap (red) quite clear between the two. It's also clear that the two arms are moved in synchrony by the single cam on the regulator. I also suspect that the two pins cannot move on the same radial line, since the outer arm, on the left, appears to have an external pivot (green), whereas the inner arm appears to just slide under the endstone setting in the common regulator manner. If present, this slight diagonal element of the geometry would tend to increase the sensitivity of the adjustment. I also suspect that with the two pins bent as they are, the regulator can't work as it was intended to, because the outer pin will always be in contact with the spring.

The radial depth of the notch in the cock table is several times the thickness of the pins and gives more than adequate clearance for the tiny movements of the regulator. The balance spring will probably be of the order of 0.2 mm thick or less, so the amount of movement necessary at the pins will be small and the clearance as seen will be more than adequate.

upload_2020-8-15_23-20-54_edit.png

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

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I can see that each arm terminates in a small boss which holds its pin, with the left-hand arm on the outside and the right-hand one on the inside, and the gap (red) quite clear between the two
I see the two arms and the gap that you have identified with the red arrow. My problem is that even when I enlarge and enhance the photograph, it does not appear that the inner pin is attached to the inner arm on the right.

Perhaps I am not understanding correctly ...

upload_2020-8-16_12-5-4.png

I assume by two arms you are referring to what I have identified with the solid green and blue arrows, separated by the gap (red arrow). This seems to correspond to

since the outer arm, on the left, appears to have an external pivot (green), whereas the inner arm appears to just slide under the endstone setting in the common regulator manner.
If this is correct, what I take to be the inner pin (orange & blue arrow), does not appear to be attached to what I take to be the right arm. Also, I don't understand what appears to be a boss on the top of the left arm.

Sorry if i am being slow ...

John
 

Audemars

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........Paul Audemars............Perhaps he can check his archives?...........
2268 isn't in my archive. But the archive is incomplete so that doesn't mean it isn't an LA product. Most of their 226X numbers date from the 1850s and 60s but that isn't definitive either.

As far as I can tell, they never patented anything. That might have been because of their lack of business acumen.
But I prefer to think they knew full well that because of the structure of their "cottage industry" business, they would get copied anyway and there wasn't much they could do about it.

They may also have subscribed to my own view that a patent isn't worth the paper it's written on, until it has been successfully defended in court. I never bothered and it never did my business any harm.

Peter, I have no trace of your message. But at my age that isn't definitive either!

Best regards
Paul
 

gmorse

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Hi John,

I assume by two arms you are referring to what I have identified with the solid green and blue arrows, separated by the gap (red arrow). This seems to correspond to:
gmorse said:
since the outer arm, on the left, appears to have an external pivot (green), whereas the inner arm appears to just slide under the endstone setting in the common regulator manner.

If this is correct, what I take to be the inner pin (orange & blue arrow), does not appear to be attached to what I take to be the right arm. Also, I don't understand what appears to be a boss on the top of the left arm.
So far so good. My green arrow pointing to the boss forms the pivot point for the left (outer) arm. The red arrow points to the outer arm running from the pivot point back towards the regulator, on the outside of the setting so that it doesn't interfere with the inner arm, whereas the inner arm has no external pivot and is tucked away underneath the setting. For this to move at all, I infer that it extends under the setting where the blue arrow is, allowing it to move like a normal regulator.

Notice that its arm reaching back to the regulator cam is somewhat shorter than the one which is pivoted at the green boss, but I think you'll find that the effective lengths of both levers are the same, given that they have different centres of rotation. This in turn implies that the two pins move in different ways, the inner one tangentially and the outer one almost radially.

P1520850.JPG

I believe the right (inner) arm terminates in a hook-shaped piece carrying the pin at its tip, so that it sits behind the pin in the left arm. Although this structure isn't visible, I believe it's reasonable to infer its presence from what we can see of the mechanism and our current understanding of its function.

Finally, I must apologise to Peter for taking his thread down into these murky depths of horological engineering!

Regards,

Graham
 

Dr. Jon

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Lovely,

I would like to see another photo, this time of the lever. Louis Audemars watches usually have a characteristic counterpoise. I see part of a counter poise and it is listed in Zantke as one they did use, but not theor usual form. From what I can see half appears to be missing but a better photo may show it.

The center wheel arrangement also differs from usual Audemars practice. FWIW the Crott example has both the usual Audemars counterpoise and center wheel pin; and this is probably why they attribute this example to them.

Lovely watch and it s great that you have it with case and box.
 

Halda Sweden

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I am very satisfied with the interesting information from all of You. Many thanks!:)

Regarding counterpoised lever. I have to take some better detailphotos later. The counterpoised lever is complete. It´s a very long one ending with a Y-form..Perhaps this picture can give a clue untill I have better photos ready.

Best regards
Peter

20200803_155015.jpg
 

Audemars

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Peter,
In the fourth photo of your original post there is a hand-scratched number which seems to my aged eyesight to be different from the 2268 you mentioned earlier.
I can't read it in detail so please can you confirm what it is?
Thank you.
Regards
Paul
 

gmorse

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Hi John,

For this to move at all, I infer that it extends under the setting where the blue arrow is, allowing it to move like a normal regulator.
If there isn't an extension in that blue area, it may be that it actually extends in the other direction, behind the outer arm towards the green pivot point, because it must extend beyond half the circumference in one direction or the other in order to stay attached at all and still move.

Regards,

Graham
 

gmorse

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Hi Paul,

In the fourth photo of your original post there is a hand-scratched number which seems to my aged eyesight to be different from the 2268 you mentioned earlier.
It looks like 93962 to me.

Regards,

Graham
 

Audemars

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That's mildly interesting.
I have a discontinuous run of 939xx and 94xxx serial numbers which are a bit of a mystery.

A very few of them are marked as "alternatives" to some of the 11xxx and 12xxx numbers which make up the (very important) "register of superior watches".
They are all "superior" grade products and they all appear twice in the ledgers, in 1876 and 1880. Most are in the London "depot".

93962 isn't in there. The nearest I have are 93929 and 93978.

Paul
 

John Matthews

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Graham,

I am sorry but, just from the photographs, I am not convinced that it works exactly as you describe. I realise I am on dangerous ground, but I offer this as an alternative. Close inspection of the mechanism, may well reveal that I am completely mistaken - such is life.

While I believe you are correct in saying that one pin should be attached to the the right arm and one to the left arm as you have described. Further, intuitively I would expect them to be attached to the cylindrical termination, in fact I think it is possible that the outer pin passes through a hole in the centre of the end of the left arm and is protruding above it. We agree it is impossible to see how the inner pin is supported and you have proposed that the is an extension to the right arm. This is possible - but I have my doubts. I have a suspicion, from the shape of the outer pin and the position of the inner pin, that the outer pin has been bent and the inner pin has been moved. I suspect that originally the inner pin was fixed as I described for the outer pin.

upload_2020-8-17_10-19-41.png

As to the way the regulation works. Firstly, I do not believe the left arm is necessarily pivoted on the centre-line of the screw to which the green arrow points. I am not certain, but I think the upper coil of the spring is secured directly beneath the screw. I believe it is possible that the left arm may simply be loosely wrapped around the shaft of the screw and is not at all constrained by the plate above, or the cock below. There may be a pivot, but I don't see that it is necessary.

upload_2020-8-17_10-35-46.png

My interpretation of how the regulation works is as follows. The two arms are constrained in their movement by the block (B) and the two springs (S). The springs are secured to the cock, inline with the block (B) on the other side of the arms. The free end of the springs are designed to limit the regulation and it can be seen that the right arm is approaching the limit of its rotation - the end of the straight portion of the arm has been advanced beneath the setting plate. In contrast the left arm is clear of the plate. Correct me if I am mistaken, but I believe the regulation is approaching the limit of advancement - the two pins should be approaching, but not have reached, their closest positions. The scale extends 180 degrees around the circumference of lower, outer plate of the regulation mechanism that is rotated by the key, and the inner, upper plate, that moves the arms, would rotate by a much smaller amount (10-20 degrees), from this I infer that there must be gearing between the plates.

Without a doubt a sophisticated and expensive mechanism, however it works.

John
 
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gmorse

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Hi John,

The block B is a single attachment point for both springs, and there's no contact with either arm at that point. This is clarified by the image in the Crott catalogue which although a mirrored layout with two separate spring attachment points, shows that it has no pivot function. It's also clearer from this image that the outer arm is well separated from the setting and the inner one, leaving plenty of room for the inner arm to pass behind it.

24-fc5ee0a7e488a5281bfc99284.jpg

The balance spring stud is on the side of the cock table here:

P1520853_edit.jpg

It terminates underneath the 'green' pivot but is unconnected with it.

The length ratios on both levers are of the order of 4 or 5 to 1, so the extent of the pin travel is a function of that and the eccentricity of the cam profile.

Regards,

Graham
 

gmorse

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Hi John,

Pardon the rough sketch, but this is how I think it's working:

DSCF8863.JPG

The inner arm slides around the setting as a normal regulator would, sprung against an inner flange, and the outer arm pivots on the screw set in the cock table.

Regards,

Graham
 
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gmorse

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Hi all,

Further to the previous rough sketch, I think this enhanced, Mark II version may clarify how I believe the two arms move:

DSCF8864.JPG
Regards,

Graham
 

eri231

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i think the two arms go back and forth to increase or decrease the distance between the two pins
regards enrico
 

gmorse

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Hi Enrico,

Do you mean that the arms are pivoted on the regulator? Because that disc clearly has cam lobes on each side and if the arms were pivoted to it what is the point of the two springs?

Regards,

Graham
 

eri231

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during the excursion the two arms widen or tighten and the springs are used to maintain contact around the jewel

I found another Oudin with the same regulator
"Escapement piston tooth - armature escapement, rectilinear arrangement; Anchor with counterweight in the form of a bishop's staff. Piston tooth - ratchet wheel made of steel. Compensation - balance, two-legged; Balance wheel with gold screws. Cylindrical balance spring made of steel, blued, with end curves on both sides. Regulating system in which a double-sided eccentric, the distance between the regulator pins can be changed using two steel levers."
regards enrico

IMG_2927.JPG
 

Dr. Jon

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Graham's explanation makes the most sense to me:

The two regulator pins have different functions. The pin pivoting on the jewel center moves the point of action with respect to the stud. Moving this changes the amplitude of the onset of contact as the spring closes. The outer pin moves primarily radially affecting the onset of contact on the opening of the spring. The distance between pins changes but this is secondary to the adjustment it provides, which I believe is for vertical position adjustment, based on the idea that amplitude is less in vertical positions. These pins increase rate in high amplitude by reducing the spring length for that part of the arc.

This is similar in concept to varying the regulator pin separation for vertical position adjustment with a degree of freedom to move the inner on radially and to do this without having to stick a tool between the pins to make the adjustment.

The idea of simply varying pin distance is the concept of the Breguet affix which by this time was used for a crude temperature compensation.
 
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gmorse

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Hi Enrico,

I found another Oudin with the same regulato
This one looks very similar to the Dr. Crott example in Peter's post #18.

Peter, I bet you didn't expect to provoke all this! Our thanks to you for initiating such an interesting discussion.

Regards,

Graham
 

eri231

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it is true it is the same 23809, which I found in the book by Gerd Arhens, in fact Dr Crott has taken up the description.
regards enrico
 

Halda Sweden

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Hi Enrico,



This one looks very similar to the Dr. Crott example in Peter's post #18.

Peter, I bet you didn't expect to provoke all this! Our thanks to you for initiating such an interesting discussion.

Regards,

Graham
Dear All contributers to this thread!

I am speechless!:)

Is there no chance there was a patent applied somewhere?
The cuvette says "Bréveté but I guess it could be "fake news":)

Best regards
Peter
 
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