Charles Jenkins Lever Chronometer.

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Omexa, Dec 24, 2019.

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  1. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, having looked at the excellent Lip Chronometer (Not a Spring or Pivoted Detent) ; I will look more closely at Lip Pocket Watches in the future. I have decided to, over the Christmas period to work on getting going the Charles Jenkins, London Lever Chronometer. Keith likes it, I suppose that it is the next step after Detent movements. I may be wrong but when it was made it was probably a better time keeper than Detent movements? I will post more photos as I get into it. Regards Ray

    1.JPG 2.JPG 3.JPG
     
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  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Not necessarily, but it would have been a more robust watch to carry, and much less likely to set than a detent. It's unusual to find a chronometer balance matched with a lever escapement. Have you got all the necessary parts?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  3. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, finding the all the necessary parts will be my task over the next few days. I will have them somewhere. All the best for Christmas and the new Year. Regards Ray
     
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  4. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
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    Neat watch. I suspect it has been converted.

    The balance cock has a screw hole and end shape for a free spring stud.

    The regular and current stud and cock looks like conversion.

    Also to my knowledge John Hutton was the only maker to put the word chronometer on a lever watch and it was not well received and I doubt anybody in the UK did it again.
     
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  5. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Dr Jon, it is possible that you are right. I will have a more careful look at it in the morning. I would like to restore it back to when it was converted. I will have to look for John Hutton. Regards Ray
     
  6. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    I think Dr. Jon is right about the cock table and the change in the stud. It will be interesting to see some more pictures when you get the chance, especially edge-on and between the plates.

    The several varieties of George Morton's patent were signed as 'Chronometers' although certainly not detents, having a type of Robin escapement. Then there were the Barraud & Lunds 'half-chronometers', which were detached levers and properly adjusted for position and temperature.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  7. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, it has the Fast Slow sector on the plate. I will take some more photos. Regards Ray
     
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  8. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, as requested some more photos. It has a Strange Shape Roller Jewel Regards Ray.

    4.JPG 5.JPG 6.JPG 7.JPG 11.JPG 12.JPG 16.JPG
     
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  9. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Ray - you have a single lever with a dovetail jewel - see here

    and a few links ...

    BARRAUDS Cornhill London #2/2472 c1830 (D Penney)

    BARRAUDS Cornhill London #2/2886 c1840 (John Palvik)

    BARRAUD'S & LUND, Cornhill, London. #2/3241 (D Penney)

    BARRAUDS & LUND 41 Cornhill, London.#2/3320 c1840 (D Penney)

    BARRAUD & LUNDS 41 Cornhill London #3/1256 c1873 (Jagger Supplement)

    BARRUND & LUNDS 41 Cornhill London #3/1909 c1875 (D Penney)

    BARWISE & SONS, London #7848 1819 (D Penney)

    FRENCH, Royal Exchange, London. #21879 c1865 (D Penney)

    John
     
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  10. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Thanks very much for the research John. Regards Ray
     
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  11. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Ray - I think I was too quick and didn't look closely at the roller - I now think it is probably a Savage with a wide dovetail jewel

    A view of the other side of the lever would confirm, but a notch rather than a passing flat on the roller is probably sufficient. I have links to a number of wide jewels, but only one that has a dovetail jewel see ...

    BRACEBRIDGE'S Clerkenwell London #1536 c1865 (D Penney)

    (I have just purchased this, so the link is not to an active sale)

    upload_2019-12-24_21-8-59.png

    John
     
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  12. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi John, the lever is nothing like the Lever in the Bracebridge movement. I will take some photos of the Lever. Regards Ray
     
  13. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi John, here is the Lever; taken in the light in the Kitchen. Regards Ray

    P1030977.JPG P1030987.JPG
     
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  14. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Just caught up with this. This is a trapezoidal or 'dovetail' shaped impulse jewel, as John said, but I'm not sure that it's a species of George Savage's two-pin design, because the notch under the jewel isn't straight sided, but the sides are chamfered. A picture of the lever will be most interesting.

    The view of the underside of the top plate does show some odd holes, and the potence doesn't match the finish of the rest of it, so it could be a conversion. The inboard banking pins look like a later addition as well.

    7_edit.jpg


    EDIT: That lever is a double roller Swiss type without pallet jewels, not a Savage.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  15. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    I think the roller could have been a Savage, but it's been altered to work with that lever, which I suspect wasn't a particularly successful exercise.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  16. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, the Holes in the Red Circle are for the Hairspring Hanger. Regards Ray
     
  17. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Ah, thanks, I knew they were in the wrong position to be a detent foot!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  18. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Interesting, my 1822 Savage II.

    Keith R...

    jj367 (800x600).jpg
     
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  19. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
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    The rollers in Rays post #8 and Graham's #11 are Hutton's patent lever chronometer from his 1846 patent. The idea was to replace the two pins with a large, wide unlocking jewel on the roller. The straight side notch takes impulse from the pin in the lever which also does the safety.

    Thanks now I see an example that shows that Hutton was not alone. However Hutton used it in free helical balance springs.

    I have a Hutton but its lever and roller were replaced.
     
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  20. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Dr Jon, I wonder if Hutton made this movement for Charles Jenkins? Regards
     
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  21. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Could you post a picture of the balance cock from the side, please? I suspect that it may be higher than would be necessary for a flat spring.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  22. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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  23. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
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    I still think the watch was converted from free sprung to regulated and possible from helical to flat.

    At one time the definition of of and English chronometer was a timepiece with a detent escapement and a freesrung balance, hence the idea that a free sprung levefr was a half chronometer, but while many were listed as such in catalogs and by sales pitches it was never written on the watch except by Hutton and now I see by Jenkins. Here is the Hutton
    Mmvt_Full_s.gif


    The dial is marked "Hutton's Patent Lever Chronometer". This type got a Gold Medal at the Great London Exposition of 1851 but not a lot of English makers copied the idea then. When Bond in Boston sold one their books called it a first quality lever.
     
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  24. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    That makes sense to me

    Jon - do you have a photograph of a Hutton roller or a copy of the patent?

    I thought the difference between the Savage with the dovetail jewel and the notch in the roller, was that Hutton had a single jewel (not sure of the shape) but that the jewel also had the notch. This is certainly the case with the only example I have seen on the David's site here

    John
     
  25. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Here it is.

    P1030988.JPG
     
  26. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Sorry to be a pest, but could you show the balance installed under the cock from the side please? I'd like to see them in context.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  27. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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  28. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, there is not enough space for a Helical Hairspring. Regards Ray

    P1030991.JPG
     
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  29. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Well, I'm not so sure. If you take away the regulator assembly, which wouldn't be there if it was originally freesprung, I think you could fit a short helical spring in there. Although the rim is deep the crossings are quite thin and set at the bottom of the wheel, (as normal). Have a look at John's Barwise:

    DSCF7743.JPG DSCF7745.JPG

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  30. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
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    Graham, I am corrected again. My watch has been converted to a table roller so I have no photo of it's original escapement. I do have a copy if a photo of the Hutton patent roller but it is from Penney and is copyright protected and I don't have permission to publish it. It is the Reid watch you post points to but you need ot get the roller picture from David.

    You are correct the Hutton patent version has the notch included in the roller jewel,

    The examples I mistakenly ID'd as Hutton are similar variants on the Savage but are not Hutton's version, probably because of his patent and because they were hard to make.
     
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  31. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, all the best for the New Year; I must confess that despite all the input I am as confused as I was at the start about this Chronometer! Regards Ray
     
  32. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Ray - complements of the day and for 2020 ...

    I do think Graham is correct and this started life as a Savage with a dovetail jewel replacing the normal two pins. It doesn't have the complicated jewel of Hutton's patent. The lever has the style of that found on a Swiss double roller. Graham pointed out that the sides of the slot are rounded at the leading edge of the lever, with a Savage they are normally not. Graham has interpreted that to mean that this was done to accommodate a replacement lever. I'm not sure - I wonder whether it might be possible for this combination to work as a standard Savage and the lever might be original. However, as the Savage escapement, I believe, required additional skill compared with other escapements of the time and the lever does not appear to match the quality one might expect to see. So I think Graham is probably correct and it is a replacement.

    As to whether you could accommodate a helical spring - here is another view of my Barwise, which might help ...

    20191122 003.jpg

    As you can see the top of the spring is only very slightly higher than the weights, which like your (one!) are mounted above the crossing.

    Graham will correct, if I am mistaken in my summary.

    John
     
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  33. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Season's greetings to all here!

    I agree in all respects apart from the above; that lever is certainly not original and I very much doubt if it's even English in origin. Those narrow steel pallets shout 'Swiss' to me. It has every appearance of being a substitution which the repairer had to hand and thought would be 'near enough', in the process committing the sin of altering the watch to fit the part. Since the 'dart' in a Savage lever is actually a pin, and has the function of providing impulse to that slot in the roller, this lever might work after a fashion, but never as originally designed. Savage escapements demanded a high level of precision in their manufacture in order to work reliably and provide the technical advantage inherent in the design, which this lever definitely doesn't possess.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  34. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    I knew I had read this somewhere although I never read the patent ... it is here

    It's in David's description of a second example, that I had forgotten ...

    John Hutton, Patent No 11,427, October 1846. Eight parts, including this "improvement in the 'two-pin' lever escapement...inserting a solid piece of ruby or other hard stone in the roller, and in placing the impulse notch in this ruby, and forming the lower part of the ruby so as to receive the fork of the lever." An improvement of an already fine escapement.
    John
     
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  35. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I think people on this subject Ray, have forgotten the William Willison pocket watch. See photographs below. On the dial, it quite clearly says " Chronometer Watch by William Benton 148 Park Road, Liverpool. It is, in fact, a Single Table Roller, though it does have a longer Jewell than normal. There is somewhere in the AHS an article on the subject of Chronometer/Lever watches, and I believe Jonathan Betts wrote about them too, but today I have been packing up for our holiday in Nordeny, I would have looked deeper into the subject, but only saw this, this evening. We have to remember that after the STR there were many efforts to improve on it, below a diagram by David Penney in an article in the 1990 AHS journal. Notice the underslung fork. My bet at the moment would be someone took this watch and tried to improve the timekeeping, but failed. Though thanks for a very interesting thread. I will get back to you on this when I return.

    Allan

    1-94.jpg 1-96.jpg 1-97.jpg Hallmarked Chester 1858/59


    ä-22.JPG Hornby used a thick Jewell too.
     
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  36. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Nice dust cap and watch Allan!

    I sent you a PM.

    Keith R...
     

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