Charging for Repairs

[Richard Hadden]

Hello to all!
I hope it isn't inappropriate to ask this but I need some advice on how much I should charge for work as a non professional? After a recent move, a family member asked me to look at their Howard Miller grandfather clock as it may have been damaged in the move and they were withholding part of the payment to the movers. The pendulum and leader were removed by the movers. It has an Urgos movement. The metal strips of the suspension spring were bent up, (but not broken), as the leader was apparently forced upward when the pendulum was being removed. After removing the suspension spring I was able to straighten the metal strips enough to reinstall it. After reinstalling the leader and pendulum I put it back in beat and it is running, for now. I advised them that on the next service with a Howard Miller dealer they mention this, if it runs that long. The clock has had regular service every 3-5 years since 1989 and I was asked to help as they couldn't have the clock sitting idle, it is a well loved part of their life. They insist on paying me as they want to deduct the charge from the movers bill.

I'm sorry I don't have pictures of the damage. As I didn't expect to charge for this, I didn't think to document it with photos. The basic repair was removing and replacing a suspension spring, with the movement in the case, checking the level of the case and putting the clock back in beat. I'm sure others that aren't actively in business, or never have been like me, have come across a similar situation when it comes to charging friends and family that won't take no for an answer. Any advice from experienced pros or semi pros is appreciated.

Rich H

 

[roughbarked]

Never undercut yourself. This is the easiest way to fail in business.

 

[Schatznut]

So why do you feel it is necessary to ask a relative to pay for a repair? Have you ever worked on this kind of clock before? Did you learn anything useful? Are you trying to figure this out because they insist on paying you for your effort? The first time I work on a particular type of clock with which I'm not familiar, I steeply discount because the learning I got has value to me. For relatives I don't charge. If they insist, I ask that we all go out to dinner and they pick up the check. Then I leave the tip.

 

[Willie X]

That would be a UW66 and past it's normal service life.

Yes, I think you should be paid but how much?? And, insurance companies don't pay unless specific avenues are taken.

The price of a new SS and whatever the nearest clock repair shop's service call would be would be fair. But, without any reciepts, don't hold your breath.

Please report back after the dust settles.

Willie X

 

[TQ60]

If you are dealing with a person at the trucking company, conversation matters.

Simply look in the phone book for the town where the clock was moved to.

Call them up and ask for a quote to come out and fix the clock.

Since you already repaired it you know what was damaged, you do not tell the clock company you repaired it, but you can clearly describe the damage done.

They will suggest you bring it in.

Ask for a quote for service in the home and another for delivered to store.

The moving company is responsible for total cost, that includes transporting it to and back to the repair shop.

You are not a licensed business so the moving company may nor be able to deal with you.

The clock store is what they do, a quote from them is simple and clear.

Only use the home service quote.

The other one is for information, the trucking company may ask if you was to deliver to store for repair to save money.

That is when you ask THEM what THEY would charge to pick the clock up and deliver to repair, then pick up after repair, then setup in place.

Their charge will be much more.

You also hint that their lack of skill in handling the clock is why it needs to be repaired, so remind them to discount the bill by the quoted amount and you will get the clock repaired after move in is done.

 

[Bernhard J.]

I would charge a pizza, and the clock owners might then argue (best via attorney) with the mover about whether a reduction worth a Margherita or a Diavola is more appropriate. If the mover provides the pizza in natura, but cold, problems will presumably escalate.

 

[bkerr]

No charge, they are happy and you spent little time making that happen. They call that kindness and has nothing to do about making a buck.

If this work is your only source of income and they are not related then different story.

80K IRS agents may ask some questions too.

 

[Richard Hadden]

Schatznut, Thanks for the response. I had no intention of charging for this repair. I always help where I can for friends and family. The problem is they want the charge to prove to the movers that they did damage and get the bill reduced, but dinner out is the way I will accept payment. Just business I guess. I have worked on several similar movements, most of them Hermle ,and this repair didn't seem complicated. The movers are local as was the move.

I think you have the right idea TQ60, and I will tell her to call the local shop she has used in the past to get that quote. We'll go from there.
My thought is to write a "bill" in the form of a letter outlining what I did and thanking her for the generous payment of an amount close to whatever the clock shop quotes, (without actually taking any money). They will have documentation to show the movers and separately I'll let them know they can pick up the tab next time we go to dinner, pizza or otherwise.

Thanks Willie X and all. As the dust settles I'll keep you posted.

Rich H

 

[Bernhard J.]

My thought is to write a "bill" in the form of a letter outlining what I did and thanking her for the generous payment of an amount close to whatever the clock shop quotes, (without actually taking any money). They will have documentation to show the movers

I do not know how such things are handled in the US, but in Europe such a "strategy" would at least be regarded as questionable.

The damage for the owner is zero, if you did the repair free of costs. Claiming a non-existent damage from a third party, willingly, would be considered inpropriate and rightfully be rejected. And your thanking for not received money in this context would seem to be a clear misreprentation for undue purposes.

But as said, going like that might be common and allowed practice in the US, I do not know, and I apologise if so.

 

[shutterbug]

At most, I would charge a regular home visit fee. For relatives, I might accept $25.00 if it would make them feel better, otherwise nothing. I'm suspicious about the claim that the clock has been serviced every 3-5 years. I'm guessing that they were charged too much for just re-oiling the movement. I wonder if the movement was even removed from the case? At any rate, stay in communication with them. Withholding money from the movers will convince them that clocks are not making them money. Eventually people will not be able to get their clocks moved professionally. That might be worse than the slight damage that was done to the clock.

 

[R. Croswell]

.......... I need some advice on how much I should charge for work as a non professional? After a recent move, a family member asked me to look at their Howard Miller grandfather clock as it may have been damaged in the move and they were withholding part of the payment to the movers. The pendulum and leader were removed by the movers. It has an Urgos movement. The metal strips of the suspension spring were bent up, (but not broken), as the leader was apparently forced upward when the pendulum was being removed. After removing the suspension spring I was able to straighten the metal strips enough to reinstall it. After reinstalling the leader and pendulum I put it back in beat and it is running, for now. I advised them that on the next service with a Howard Miller dealer they mention this, if it runs that long.......... They insist on paying me as they want to deduct the charge from the movers bill.

The owner should not have asked you or anyone else to repair the damaged clock. The first step should have been to report the damage to the moving company. If they are a reputable company they will be insured and should send a representative or and insurance adjuster to assess the damage and propose an adjustment. It should be their responsibility to get a price from a Howard Miller dealer or other professional to have the clock repaired. The procedure for filing a claim should have been included in the contract with the moving company and if that procedure was not followed and/or the owner fixed the clock or had a "non-professional" attempt repair, the moving company, in my opinion, has every right to refuse any adjustment.

Any attempt to get the moving company to reduce their bill to cover costs that were never charged by a legitimate professional clock repair business would be wrong if not outright fraud.

To answer your original question; "how much I should charge for work as a non professional", make NO charge, graciously accept whatever gratuity the owner may offer, give the owner a letter describing what damage was found and what was done. Let the owner wrestle with the shipper and his/her own conscience, don't get involved.

Is what I think.

RC

 

[Willie X]

Yep, you can't cut a deal after the fact. It just doesn't work that way. And, withholding money from the moving company will probably be treated the same as non payment. Willie X

 

[Schatznut]

So is the intent of all this to put some money in your pocket for this repair?

 

[Bernhard J.]

So is the intent of all this to put some money in your pocket for this repair?

As I understand it, he wants to support his relatives in getting the move for less than billed by the moving company. His "part" would have been a misrepresentation only, in form of a "virtual" bill, but without own personal profit of any kind (=no money for him).

And he wants us to tell him what he shall put into the "virtual" bill, for maximizing the profit (lesser expense) of his relatives.

 

[Richard Hadden]

Some good advice from all. Let me reassure Schatznut, and any others, that there was never any intent on my part to make any money from this situation and the offer of payment was refused. I went over to look at the clock as a favor expecting to only re-hang the pendulum and put the clock in beat, have a cup of coffee and go home with no charge for anything at all.

The movers offered to come over and fix the clock themselves which is the reason the owner asked me to have a look. There will be no fraud or misrepresentation as of course my thought to give them a"bill/letter" without taking payment would be fraud and not is not common practice in the US.

Since my last post I have discussed this with the owner and told them that I can't do this, and basically came to the same conclusions as R Coswell stated in the last few sentences of his advice, and not get any further involved. They will just have to take no charge as an answer. Then call the pros they have used before and let them take it from there. The suspension spring should still be replaced.

Rich H

 

[Richard Hadden]

So is the intent of all this to put some money in your pocket for this repair?

No.

 

[bruce linde]

was in the middle of this when you just posted....

when you offer to repair a clock, you're accepting a certain amount of responsibility. your friends are going to expect everything to work flawlessly when they get it back, and you're going to need to make sure it is at the very least no worse off if you are unable to resolve all issues.

i typically:

- explain the process a professional would put it through... along with a guesstimated price and wait time

- remind them that i am not a professional... while i'm reasonable at most parts of the process, i/we may encounter an issue above my pay grade... but i'm happy to look and will do my best

- tell them we'll discuss money afterwards... but i'll be more than reasonable.

you're already doing them a 'nice' because they're friends... but if that 'nice' turns out to be 15 hours of hell involving multiple dis- and re-assemblies because of wear that even a professional would think twice about, a token payment of $100 doesn't seem out of line. if you leave it to them to determine the amount you may end up with something more... irritating... than feel-good (he said from experience).

set appropriate expectations and then exceed them... money is the least of your worries.

 

[Schatznut]

No.

Then why this thread? Clock was broken. Clock is fixed. Owner suffered no loss. And a hearty "well done" to you for fixing it without charge. Everyone is whole.

 

[Richard.W]

I'm sorry I don't have pictures of the damage. As I didn't expect to charge for this, I didn't think to document it with photos. The basic repair was removing and replacing a suspension spring, with the movement in the case, checking the level of the case and putting the clock back in beat.

Speaking of the "lessons learned".... I'd have to say that when dealing with trucking companies, insurance adjusters, or the like... if there's money involved, then documentation of the damage is needed BEFORE work begins. This needn't be any more complicated than a couple of digital photos, and it's so easy to do.

 

[Richard Hadden]

Yes, a few good lessons learned with this one, not the least of which is to take some digital photos and or video.
Thanks,

Rich H

 

[Dick Feldman]

I have, in past years, been asked by moving companies many times to repair movements damaged in the course of a move. That experience, I believe gives me credibility to speak on this matter.
I have been asked to make repairs because I have many years experience and a sound reputation. I have professionally repaired clocks of all sorts for many years.
If I understand the situation, you are dealing with a clock movement that is some 34 years old.
The normal expected lifespan on one of those Urgos movements is 20-25 years.
Straightening a suspension spring is a shoddy or amateur approach to that repair and the suspension spring was likely damaged before the moving company ever got near the clock.
Regardless of which side in the dispute hired me, I would have the same opinion.
Low end, consumer type clock, cause of failure was likely not the responsibility of the moving company and lastly the repair was an amateur bodge.
I think it is evident what I think should be charged.
Dick

 

[Richard Hadden]

I have, in past years, been asked by moving companies many times to repair movements damaged in the course of a move. That experience, I believe gives me credibility to speak on this matter.
I have been asked to make repairs because I have many years experience and a sound reputation. I have professionally repaired clocks of all sorts for many years.
If I understand the situation, you are dealing with a clock movement that is some 34 years old.
The normal expected lifespan on one of those Urgos movements is 20-25 years.
Straightening a suspension spring is a shoddy or amateur approach to that repair and the suspension spring was likely damaged before the moving company ever got near the clock.
Regardless of which side in the dispute hired me, I would have the same opinion.
Low end, consumer type clock, cause of failure was likely not the responsibility of the moving company and lastly the repair was an amateur bodge.
I think it is evident what I think should be charged.
Dick

If I gave the impression that I thought straightening a bent suspension spring was a proper repair, please forgive me. Even as an amateur/hobbyist I know that it is not, and the only true repair is replacing the damaged part.

Unfortunately I did not take pictures to show the damage to the suspension spring as I found it. You will have to trust me that the damage appeared to have been caused by force used against it, most likely from mishandling the pendulum/leader, and the bends in the spring would make it useless. The clock could not run with the spring in that condition.

I trust the owners that told me no one other than the movers have touched the clock, that it was running prior to the move, and that the clock was bought by them in 1989 and been regularly serviced. I have no reason to not believe them.

Straightening the bent spring so that the pendulum could re-hung was not intended as a repair but just to get the pendulum and leader out of the bottom of the clock and have it looking like it should before a proper repair could be made. The fact that the spring wasn't broken made this possible and did no damage to any other parts. The fact that it runs in this condition is a plus, until the owners can get it properly serviced by the Urgos dealer they have used in the past.

As I think I have said before, I did not go into this to put money in my pockets but just to help a family member.

If I have offended any of the professional experienced clock repairers on this forum, this was unintentional. I have learned much from the responses I've received from this post and I will more carefully consider the advice I seek in the future so as to avoid any offense.

Rich H

 

[R. Croswell]

If I gave the impression that I thought straightening a bent suspension spring was a proper repair, please forgive me. Even as an amateur/hobbyist I know that it is not, and the only true repair is replacing the damaged part.

Unfortunately I did not take pictures to show the damage to the suspension spring as I found it. You will have to trust me that the damage appeared to have been caused by force used against it, most likely from mishandling the pendulum/leader, and the bends in the spring would make it useless. The clock could not run with the spring in that condition.

I trust the owners that told me no one other than the movers have touched the clock, that it was running prior to the move, and that the clock was bought by them in 1989 and been regularly serviced. I have no reason to not believe them.

Straightening the bent spring so that the pendulum could re-hung was not intended as a repair but just to get the pendulum and leader out of the bottom of the clock and have it looking like it should before a proper repair could be made. The fact that the spring wasn't broken made this possible and did no damage to any other parts. The fact that it runs in this condition is a plus, until the owners can get it properly serviced by the Urgos dealer they have used in the past.

As I think I have said before, I did not go into this to put money in my pockets but just to help a family member.

If I have offended any of the professional experienced clock repairers on this forum, this was unintentional. I have learned much from the responses I've received from this post and I will more carefully consider the advice I seek in the future so as to avoid any offense.

Rich H

Rich, there is nothing wrong with what you did to try and help a family member get that clock running. Even a "professional" may well have straightened that bent suspension spring and left the clock running while a correct replacement was ordered. No one should be offended by what you did, if they are that's their problem. You did not claim to be a professional and you caused no damage, and you did not substitute any parts. The clock was not running and now it is. If your friend expected a "professional repair" he/she should have hired a professional to do the repair.

Now if you had charged for the repair (not just accepted gratuity), or represented yourself as a "professional" or otherwise qualified, then perhaps your work would legitimately be open for criticism. What I, and I believe others, found troubling was the apparent indication that your friend was looking for reduction in charges from the moving company of x$ for professional services that were never properly performed of billed.

I believe Dick is correct about what this clock is and what should be done to it. But if your friend had a mostly worn-out clock that was still running, the moving company has an obligation to deliver that mostly worn-out clock in the same running condition.

RC

 

[Dick Feldman]

I may have been a bit hard on this situation but.....
Moving companies are normally honest businessmen.
All too often the calls I make for moving companies or for people associated with a moving company involve a blatant attempt to take advantage of rather than seek an honest solution for a problem.
As I said, regardless of which party hires me, they will get an honest appraisal of the situation with a workmanlike repair suggestion.
Many times I am hired by clock owners and/or movers to prepare a clock for a move or to set it up after the move. That actually puts my neck in the noose if something goes wrong.
Best of luck,
Dick

 

[Willie X]

For what it's worth. Urgos left the building about 30 years ago and AFAIK never had any "dealers". Willie X

 

[Richard Hadden]

Hmmm. Maybe they meant a Howard Miller dealer/seller as that is the clock brand. At any rate I'm only going by what I was told. I will be at dinner with these folks in a few days and will be certain to clear the air (if it's not clear now), that there will be no charges from me and no bill for services either.The "move" that started all this was only about 10 miles away in the same town, the damage was small and the clock is past it's prime but working and has been said, everybody should satisfied.

It did occur to me that a professional might be able to specialize in securing grandfather clocks for moving. Interesting.

Thank you all, and know that you all have the respect of a hobbyist like me.

Rich H

 

[shutterbug]

I moved two tall case clocks from Iowa to North Carolina. Rented a Uhaul, and hired two professional packers to load it for me. One of my most valuable tall clocks is a wall hanging Jewelers Regulater. They hung it on the wall of the truck and secured it so it couldn't move. The other is a tubular chimer which I prepared for shipping. That one was secured to a wall of the truck too. We made that long 15 hour trip in the rain (all the way!) and am happy to report we only had damage to one finger of a small figurine. The guys did a great job for me, so there are some out there. I'm guessing that movers don't work for themselves, and are less caring

 

[Richard Hadden]

I spoke with the owners of this clock a few days ago. The movers agreed to reduce their fee (basically give a rebate) for the trouble. The owners explained that the clock was looked at by a friend who does clock work as a hobby and the movers were fine with that.
The clock is still running and I've ordered a new suspension spring for it.

Rich H