Char Goode Dublin circa?

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Omexa, Mar 27, 2015.

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  1. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #51 Allan C. Purcell, Dec 7, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
    Hi Ray, In Moores book "British Clockmakers & Watchmakers Apprentice Records 1710-1810.

    Goode, Charles Mas. , Lewen Bloomer son of Richd. gent (deceased)app. Citizen & Clockmaker, London, Mx. 5 Jul. 1714,7 years, 30 pounds.

    I then when to "Clockmakers of Britten 1286-1700" by Brian Loomes.

    " GOOD (E) CHARLES, London. He was a watchmaker, who was made a free Brother in the Clockmakers Company in September 1686. he took as apprentices: March 1692/3 Mougham James (through John Elton); July 1724 Lewen Bloomer, son of Richard Bloomer, gentleman, deceased. He did not sign the 1697 oath roll of allegiance for any city company. In 1712 he contested a patent application by John Hutchinson claiming that he had made a watch 14 years earlier to do the same as Hutchinson's ie wind without an aperture in the case. I have no dates on him after 1714, but he died in 1730. He was a watchmaker of the parish of St.Mary Le Strand when his will was proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury on 7 April 1730. Several watches are known, also lantern, bracket (figs 110-111) longcase clocks (including month duration, fig. 112) usually signed Chas, Goode London, cha. Goode London`or Charles Goode London"

    So a well-known watch & Clockmaker of his time. I still think your piece is one of his later pieces, but you are lucky to own it.

    Going on to the "RB" on the case Richard, Bayley registered his mark in 1720 (See Jackson)
    Johns suggestion is well-meant, but I don´t think Richard Bell would have marked a case four years after Charles Goode watchmaker, died.



    Best Allan.
     
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  2. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Ray - I missed that Phillip had previously attributed it to Richard Blundell.

    I have found Blundell in his earlier book and it includes a photograph of the mark - it is identical to the one in Grimwade assigned to Bell. The advantage of the period covered by Grimwade (1697-1837) is that he is able with more certainty to attribute makers. The mark attributed to Blundell, who is also described as a small worker in the early book, is based upon a mark entered on the 1682 plate. Although the assignment of makers to these marks is described as 'tentative', Priestley lists 16 watches together with their makers, that are known with the mark. They range in date from~1685 to ~1710 and having definite hallmarked examples for 1695 & 1702. The second name on the list is Chas Goode - silver case ~1690 and near the bottom Charles Goode silver box & case ~1705.

    So we have the same mark used in different periods and all the evidence confirms that in this case it is Blundell - pity I didn't read your post #14

    John
     
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  3. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Don't worry John, I thought to mention that the same mark was used in different periods. I knew that you would pick up on it because you are very thorough. A Happy Christmas to you-Family and all on the Forum. Well it looks like I will make my 79th Birthday on February 7th as I am very healthy at the moment. Regards Ray
     
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  4. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Ray - my thanks for your understanding and kind wishes. It is good to have you back to health and once again being an active member of the forum. A welcome return and a Christmas and New Year present we can all enjoy. Seasons greeting in return to one and all.

    John
     
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  5. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #55 Allan C. Purcell, Dec 8, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
    I too thought Richard Blundell was your man having read your post 14, but I ruled him out because he died in 1717, some thirteen years before your watch was made.

    Loomes page 61.

    BLUNDELL, RICHARD. London. In April 1682 he was the servant (journeyman?) of George Nau, watch-case maker, and was threatened with prosecution by the Clockmaker´s Company unless he took up his freedom. he became a free brother in July 1682, He took as his own apprentices: January 1684/5 Edward Mercalfe (through Nicasius Russell), January 1692/3 William Harrison (through Francis Raynsford), free November 1700; June 1696 Henry Rawlings, free September 1706; September 1699 Henry Rawlins, free September 1706; September 1699 Robert Higgs (son of Peter Higgs od Waddleton*, Oxfordshire, Taylor), free September 1714; March 1706/7 William Blundell, free September 1716; March 1707/8 Robert Sly, free August 1720, October 1717 Jonathan Mingo, son of Jonas Mingo of Stepney.

    In 1692 he was in St Martin Le Grand precinct, Aldersgate Within ward, with his wife, a maid and one apprentice. In 1695 he was listed as a bachelor servant in the Parish of St. Ethelberga. He did not sign the 1697 Clockmakers company oath of Allegiance, but one of this name did sign under the Barbers Company, which might imply he was a member. Philip Priestly records that he was a watch-case maker in Whites Ally, Coleman Street, who registered his mark in 1697 as BL. The mark RB may also be his. ( *Is that possible-I think not) He was Buried in 1717 at St. John´s Hackney. His Will was proved on 7 October 1720 in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury.
    (* Wardington, which is very close to Horley and suggests a connection about 1699-1700 with John Blundell).

    *I was under the impression that only one mark was allowed per maker??

    Allan.
     
  6. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Allan, in an ideal World only one mark would be allowed; in the early days of Watch and Case making it was not an ideal World; sometimes the same mark would be used again by a different maker. Even in today's Regulated World lots of mistakes are made in lots of Trades-Occupations etc. I would be interested to know how many records were destroyed by Fires etc? To further blur the problem; this Char Goode was in Dublin; not London? Regards Ray
     
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  7. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi, Ray, Charles Goode was a London maker of watch-cases and a watchmaker of talent, there are no records of him being in Dublin, all he did was sell a watch in Dublin. You are right to say there are mistakes made over the many years in between, I see them all the time. All you can do is look at the records that exist, and take them from the there. If you are honest about that watch, you know quite well it was not made before 1700, and it was never made in Dublin. Allan
     
  8. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Ray - not just sometimes, commonly, I would say. My understanding is after a period of non-use an earlier registration of the same mark was frequently superseded by a later registration of a similar mark. This is particular true of the simple marks, i.e. incuse marks with two initials. There are sometimes subtle differences which can be observed if photographs of the punch plates are available. There are many examples in Priestley where such marks were registered in the C18th and similar marks re-used up to the end of the C19th. In my quick scan I didn't pick up examples of re-use into the C20th - a more thorough search may reveal that the practice continued, or possibility tighter legislation/acceptable practice was responsible for the practice to stop.

    John
     
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  9. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I will be very interested to see the above John when you have verified it.

    Allan.

    Words are so important, can't say what you mean, can't mean what you say.
     
  10. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, I am having a bit of a problem; people seem to think my Maker is in London; the Maker is in Dublin. There is the Irish Sea in between. Regards Ray

    20191208_233807.jpg
     
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  11. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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  12. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Nice point that Ray, No one is saying the Irish did not make clocks and watches, just yours. Allan
     
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  13. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    A few howlers in that NYT article; I like the one about bracket clocks being stood on brackets so that their weights would hang down . . .

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  14. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #64 Omexa, Dec 8, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
    Hi Allan, you are totally wrong; here is a Char Goode London. It is a lot later and with a Swiss style Cap Jewel. Regards Ray

    Char Goode London.jpg
     
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  15. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    I have revised the Map for Members of the NAWCC. Regards Ray

    20191208_233807.jpg
     
  16. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, so far no one has come up with an explanation of why the movement has Dublin on it? Would Charles Goode have had a Dublin Shop? I would then accept that it was made in London for the Dublin Shop. Regards Ray
     
  17. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Ray, I just don´t know what your aim is, the watch you have put on above (Post 64) is pre-1700, and matters not if it were altered later. Why don´t you send a few pms to your team?
     
  18. Keith R...

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    Allan, I Googled Charles Goode verge watch . All 70 examples are Swiss verges,
    signed London.

    Ray's Dublin verge is not a Swiss Verge. Now if it lacks documentation, we proceed
    on the basis that so many examples are needed to confirm this Dublin maker. He's
    asking circa.

    The Josh Johnson thread is still waiting for 4 or more narrow balance cock 17J levers
    in the 777x range. Just my .02.:)

    Keith R...
     
  19. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #69 Omexa, Dec 8, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  20. Bila

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    Quite interesting that you say Keith that all you found were Swiss Verge watches, first one I find is an English Made Verge Repeater by Goode of London. To our knowledge he was based on the Strand in London, as Alan eluded too, why Ray's is marked Dublin is anybody's guess:)

    Erin
     
  21. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    Also interesting to see that there are 3 different ways that these are signed which have been attributed to Charles Goode, Chas, Char & Charles. The majority we have seen are actual marked with the full rendition of his name.
     
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  22. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Bila, sometimes limited space to engrave on a Verge movement means the Name is shortened. Regards Ray
     
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