Char Goode Dublin circa?

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Omexa, Mar 27, 2015.

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  1. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, I have a liking for Pocket Watches that have Dublin engraved on them. This Pocket Watch is missing Regulator parts and has a strange Bow that looks like a "D Shackle" that is worn; maybe Silver. I seem to recollect that I have seen this before; probably not original. There are 2 Watch Papers that are interesting: A previous owner "Rev. Mr Sparhawk of West Randolph Crt? Bethal Vt. Dec. 20, 1842. Obviously still going strong for the Reverend Sparhawk. There is another Watch Paper "J Davison, Watch & Clockmaker, Potsdam, (N Y.)".
    Here is the Sellers Description: Char Goode Dublin C1690 Silver Pair Case Verge Fusee As-Found. Needs Some Work. Has two watch papers: one for "J. Davison, NY Watch & Clockmaker" plus the name of one of the former owners on the second paper: Rev. Mr. Sparhawk, West Bethel, VT Dec 20 1842" (this date much later than the watches date of manufacture. According to Britten's book " Old Clocks and Watches and their makers, 7th Edition", there was a clock maker by the name of Charles Goode making high quality clocks in 1686....no town is given. The overall layout of the watch movement and pair case are in keeping with the late 1600s.....especially the plate pillars, the fancy scroll on the side of the movement, and the balance cock bridge. The movement is approximately 17 Lignes (38mm). thickness of the movement measures approximately 1"....this is also in keeping with the early date of manufacture. There are no hallmarks on the silver pair case....only the initials "RB". The case does chemically test for silver. Not running: In as-found condition. Needs at least Crystal, fusee chain, a few small plate pins, the regulator dial....maybe others. Train looks OK as does the balance staff. I have sold all my watch tools therefore, I have not gotten into it to determine exactly what is required to restore." Regards Ray 1.jpg 6.jpg 7.jpg 8.jpg 9.jpg 10.jpg 11.jpg 12.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg

    1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg 7.jpg 8.jpg 9.jpg 10.jpg 11.jpg 12.jpg
     
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  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Next thing we know, you'll have acquired a pre-hairspring movement!

    This looks quite plausible for 1690-1710, although the entry for Goode in Britten's places him in the Strand, London, so this may be a different man. Cases this early didn't have to be hallmarked fully, so that places the case roughly before 1720. The engraving and design of the balance cock suggest the same. Really like the two animal heads!

    Does the pendant still swivel? It would have done originally. The minute hand looks correct, ("poker"), but the hour hand and the dial are clearly much later.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  3. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #3 Omexa, Mar 27, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2015
    Hi Graham, I have a few Verge movements without Hairsprings, unfortunately they are not dated before 1700. This brings to mind "Replacement Hairsprings for Verge movements"? I have a number of Copper looking (Clock Hairsprings I think); I wonder if I could alter them to suit Verge movements. The Pendant, have you seen this "D Shackle" type before. I haven't seen any comments from DaveyG Lately is he OK? Regards Ray
     
  4. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    The D shackle looks like the usual stirrup shape but pulled out of shape. I guess you could try some of those "copper plated" hairsprings if you could bring them to time with the correct number of coils. I think Skutt50 has done this in the past.

    PS: please see your PM inbox.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  5. Keith R...

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    #5 Keith R..., Mar 27, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2015
    Ray, from my notes I had 10 London makers, 1 Seaton, no Irish from your time period, (GH Baille Watch & Clock Maker's of the World list checked).
    But, I do have Charles Goode London (Strand) CC 1686 and died 1730. A latter Charles, (assume son) but just an apprentice, and he was 1714,
    (and I feel sure you're in the 1600's). I'll keep digging, perhaps take a peek at your "state side repairman". If I find anything relevant I'll post.

    It SURE looks DUBLIN............

    Best of luck. Keith
     
  6. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, I have found out that Rev Samuel Sparhawk, 1840s one of the previous owners, was a bit of a "Firebrand" One hot summer day during worship in that house, Rev. Samuel Sparhawk used the text "Thus says the Lord of Hosts, go up to the mountain and build a house for the Lord." Then as the congregation left the house, they were met at the gate and not allowed to pass until they agreed.

    Richakdson {John Caleh John Nathaniel
    Thomas') brother of the preceding, and son of Capt. John and
    Rebecca (Moore) Richardson, of Templeton; born there, Aug.
    17, 1774; married, in 1800, Abigail Sparhawk, born Dec. 26,
    1775, daughter of Rev. Ebenezer and Naomi (Hill) Sparhawk, of
    Templeton. Her mother, Naomi, was a second wife ; the first
    wife was Abigail, daughter of Rev. David Stearns, of Lunen-
    burg ; the second wife Avas a daughter of Rev. Abraham Hill, of
    Shutesbury. Mr. Sparhawk, by his first Avife, was the father of
    Rev. Samuel Sparhawk, born 1802, minister successively of Pitts-
    field and West Randolph, Vt.

    Regards Ray
     
  7. Keith R...

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    Odd, I got no farther than 1829 with Elizabeth Abigail Sparhawk. However I followed the local watch maker from Brookfield Vermont,
    Mr. Charles W. Wilcox leading to the mid 1800's. I'm trying to learn how to follow the history of, "what we collect". My line of thought
    being mode of transportation and close proximity between owner of the watch and watch maker such as Rev. Sparhawk and watch maker
    Wilcox, (close proximity). Keith
     
  8. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Keith, the Sparhawk Family seems to be a very big Family. Here is something of interest: "Samuel Henry Sparhawk (Son of the Rev Samuel Sparhawk) was born in 1841 in Pittsfield in Vermont and when 20 years of age he moved to West Randolph VT where he studied to be a Doctor under instruction of his Brother. He remained with his Brother until September 1862. He enlisted as a Private Soldier in the 15th Regiment of Vermont Volunteers and stayed with them for Nine Months. In 1863 he went to Medical College of Pennsylvania and received his Medical Degree." What is of interest here is he may have carried his Fathers Pocket Watch in the Civil War?
    Regards Ray
     
  9. gmorse

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    Hi Ray,

    Just noticed, not only the regulator disc is missing, but also the slide plate which should surround it. That won't be so easy to match up!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  10. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, over a period of time I have purchased a lot of Verge parts movements; hopefully there may be something that I can use. Regards Ray
     
  11. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, one plus is it has still got the original Cases. It is (almost) impossible to find the very deep cases to suit very early Verge movements. I have considered making them but the tools and formers would all have to be made for each individual Case. Any ideas on the Case Maker? 11.jpg Regards Ray
     
  12. gmorse

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    Hi Ray,

    Unfortunately the records for hallmarks in watch cases before 1720 are sketchy. One interesting point is that between 1697 and 1720 the maker's mark had to be the first two letters of the surname, whereas before and after this period the mark was usually the initials of first and last names, as this mark appears to be. Whilst there are several makers with this mark listed in Priestley, he only covers the period 1720 to 1920, so I'm afraid that without Philip's other book on early case makers, covering 1631 to 1720, I can't make a guess.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  13. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, I will have to purchase this book (Philip's other book on early case makers, covering 1631 to 1720) at some time. Has anyone got a copy and could look up AB Hallmark? Regards Ray
     
  14. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, Philip Priestley was kind enough to tell me the Maker of the Case. "The case maker is Richard Blundell of London. I have seen it before on a Banks of Nottingham watch. Pity it does not have date letter etc, but your dating is OK." Regards Ray
     
  15. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, from my research at the British Museum I find that "Richard Blundell" of London worked from 1690 until 1705. Regards Ray
     
  16. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, this Verge Pocket Watch would I think, have had a Champleve Dial originally; sadly lost in the mists of Time. Regards Ray
     
  17. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Yes, the original dial would very probably have been as you suggest, with beetle and poker hands.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  18. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, I am drunk with power now that I have my List. "LIST OF MEMBERS OF THE CLOCKMAKERS' COMPANY OF
    LONDON, FROM THE PERIOD OF THEIR INCORPORATION
    IN 1631 TO THE YEAR 1732.1
    By C. OCTAVIUS S. MORGAN, F.R.S., F.S.A.LIST OF MEMBERS OF
    George, Richard
    1682 c Gould, Christopher δ
    Grimes, William
    Gardener, John
    1683 a Gavelle, James b (alien)
    Gould, Abel
    1685 a Godfrey, Henry b
    Greene, James
    1686 Gilltes, Richard
    a Goode, Charles b
    1687 a Gobert, Peter b (French)
    a Giugner, Anthony δ (French)
    a Gardiner, John δ (Croydon)
    Grizell, John" So Char Goode, was making Watches and Clocks in 1686. An explanation of a,b,c follows. a Attached to a name indicates a certainty of the person having been

    a clock-maker by trade.

    b
    Following a name means that he was admitted a "Brother."

    c
    Indicates his having been mentioned on his admission as a " Great

    Clockmaker." Regards Ray

    Those names without any mark were admitted to their freedoms as "Free

    Clockmakers."

    Many were case-makers, engravers, &c., connected with the trade,
     
  19. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, "Just noticed, not only the regulator disc is missing, but also the slide plate which should surround it. That won't be so easy to match up!" 1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 812472459_o - Copy.jpg I have been working on that; I probably will end up with heaps of Regulators. I got this lot from Bulgaria. Missing Rack quadrants (nearest words that I could think of to describe missing parts). I don't know what sizes they are. Regards Ray

    1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 812472459_o - Copy.jpg
     
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  20. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Number 4 looks closest for shape, although not sure about the engraving, still you have to start somewhere!

    If you can't get a rack cut, you'll be in for some fine filing.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  21. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, If they go into stock, I have not lost much at US7.50 each. I suppose I could always use them for Earrings for the "Punk Rocker Look". I have a few Racks. I have 3 Diamond File sets; I don't know how I existed without them in earlier times. Regards Ray
     
  22. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, I have received the Pocket Watch and I have started work on it. This is the oldest movement that I have worked on. What I want to know is, did the Crystal have a Bullseye on it or was it Plain with no Bullseye? I tend to think no Bullseye, my mate has some bullseye Crystals. As a matter of interest, the Silver that the Cases are made of, is softer than any other Sterling Cases that I have worked on (very easy to bend-reshape)? Regards Ray
     
  23. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    A lot of these watches do have "bullseye" crystals, but according to some highly-respected opinions, these are wrong, and they should have plain high domes.

    Between 1696 and 1720 the British standard for silver was raised from 0.925 (sterling) to 0.958 (Britannia), to try and counter the widespread practice of clipping coinage, so your case could possibly be this higher standard, softer silver.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  24. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #24 Omexa, Apr 18, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
    Hi Graham, I have searched high and low and plain "High Domed Crystals" are more scarce than Hens Teeth. I will purchase from my mate Dave, the Bullseye Crystal. There have been some strange repairs done on this movement; the Top Plate has been indented to lower the hole for the Contrate Wheel Pivot to fit in. It does work, the Verge Staff is OK with both Pivots and Flags, but no Hairspring. The Train rotates OK. There is no Ratchet to tension the Mainspring on the top or bottom Plate? Must be internal? I Hope. There looks like some sort of Pawl between the Mainspring Barrel and the Top Plate. I will split the Plates today. Regards Ray
     
  25. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    The mainspring setup is probably a tangential worm between the barrel and the pillar plate, meshing with a toothed wheel on the arbor square. Is there a tiny square poking out near the movement joint? These are commoner than ratchets and clicks on these earlier movements.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  26. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, under better light I see there is a Pawl and a Ratchet on the Mainspring Arbor under the Top Plate. I am feeling better now as there was no sign of a Worm Gear or where it has been. Regards Ray
     
  27. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    An example from around 1700:

    DSCF1732.jpg DSCF1740.jpg

    And one made last month for a 1760s movement:

    DSCF2559.jpg DSCF2549.jpg DSCF2536.jpg


    Regards,

    Graham
     
  28. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Very Classy work Graham.
     
  29. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Well Graham, disassembled and pretty good news, parts are worn and maybe a bit rough from the start when made or later. The Fusee ratchet works OK, the Mainspring is OK (Blue Steel) and the Pawl and Ratchet are there to tension the Mainspring. The Worm has been removed at some stage. Only the Hairspring stopping me from getting it going. Regards Ray 1.jpg 2.jpg
     
  30. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    An unconventional repair for the mainspring setup, but better than some I've seen. At least they didn't drill any more holes in the plate to fit it! You should be able to run it without a hairspring to see if the train is good. The hairspring would only have had 2 or 3 coils.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  31. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, I found a Fusee Chain and I have re-assembled the movement. I am on the hunt for a Hairspring. The Train works OK. I have a Bullseye Crystal coming from my Mate Dave. Regards Ray
     
  32. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, I decided that I was rushing this repair and encouraged by your beautiful Worm Drive that you made, I am going to fit one to the Plate. I found that I had a Plate of the same Diameter with Worm Drive. So it is coming apart and I will replace the broken Pillar at the same time. By the way it was almost impossible to tension the Mainspring using the Pawl. We all learn. Regards Ray 1.jpg 3.jpg
     
  33. anguilla1980

    anguilla1980 Registered User

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    That looks AMAZING Graham! That's going to be one very happy customer for sure :D

    Alex
     
  34. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Alex,

    I certainly hope so!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  35. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    That broken pillar top is something I've come across before, and was caused by a replacement barrel arbor being slightly too long over the shoulders. When the pin was replaced, probably rather too energetically, it popped the top off the pillar due to the arbor acting as a fulcrum. I dressed the top of the pillar down, drilled and tapped it, and screwed a new top in place before cross drilling for the taper pin. I obviously corrected the arbor first! It's worth checking that arbor very carefully! I felt that this repair preserved more of the fabric than replacing the pillar completely.

    At least you still have the brass wheel; is it a decent fit with the new worm?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  36. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, now that I have slowed down on the repair I am going to do everything as good as possible. I think that I have the original Brass Wheel. "I dressed the top of the pillar down, drilled and tapped it, and screwed a new top in place before cross drilling for the taper pin." I used this method before on another Verge. While I was looking for the Worm, I found an almost complete (missing Dial Plate) running "John White London" that I had forgot I had. Regards Ray
     
  37. shinytickythings

    shinytickythings Registered User

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    I second, or third that! That is really fantastic, Graham.
     
  38. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, "At least you still have the brass wheel; is it a decent fit with the new worm?" no the Brass Wheel is a ratchet type Wheel, I will have to make one to suit the Worm. I already had a Bullseye Crystal to suit the Case coming from Dave and a person that I had emailed previously emailed to say that they have a High Dome Crystal (no Bullseye) to suit. It was very cheap only AU7.72 so there is not a lot lost if it is unsuitable. I have started to make the Brass Wheel to suit the Worm and I have Broached a Square Hole into the end of a piece of Brass Stock. I then put it in the Lathe to turn to size and the Lathe Belt snapped. I had to disassemble the Lay Shaft to put the new belt on. Not a good start to the day. My Lathe is driven by a variable speed Sewing Machine Motor (240 Volts) and the Lay Shaft came out of a Yamaha Organ. I am using your design in photo as a guide for the Brass Wheel. Regards Ray
     
  39. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Since the tooth profiles aren't that critical, and only need to move when the spring is set up, I made a fly cutter but just "planed" out the teeth using the cross-slide, indexing on the 60 holes in the large pulley on my 6mm. My wheel has 15 teeth, which works out nicely.

    I know what you mean about the lathe; some days start off badly and then just get worse!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  40. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, "I know what you mean about the lathe; some days start off badly and then just get worse!" I hope not.
     
  41. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, I have got the Worm Drive on the Plate, it is a lot of work that takes time. I have now to cut the Teeth on the Brass Wheel. The Square Hole was the hardest bit. Regards Ray 1.jpg 2.jpg
     
  42. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Good progress. Does the hub on the brass wheel clear the centre wheel when everything's in place? That square hole is difficult enough in brass, but just you try it in steel! You'll find out how good your heat treatment is on the square broach.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  43. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #43 Omexa, Apr 25, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2015
    Hi Graham, you are pretty sharp, this mornings job is to turn more off the Step-Hub to clear the Center Wheel. I am going to have a go at the Pillar Repair later Today. I also found a photo of a Tompion with exactly what I need to make (Hour Wheel) for the "Rich Street". Regards Ray 1.JPG 2.jpg
     
  44. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #44 Omexa, Apr 26, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2015
    Hi Graham, the new top of the Pillar is finished. There was not enough thickness to tap a thread in the Pillar and it would have been too weak, so after the hole was drilled I "Silver Soldered" the Post Top in. I used the top of another spare Pillar and turned to size in Lathe. A bit fiddly but came out OK in the end. I will have to sit the movement on the side for a couple of days, 4 Computers arrived to fix; they pay for my Pocket Watch habit. Pleased with myself so I went to the Sports Club for a couple of Beers. This is my oldest Pocket Watch approx 325 Years Old it is not in the same Class as my Richard Street movement c1700. Richard Street was a Member of the Clockmakers Company 1687 (apprentice to Tompion) Regards Ray P1000676.JPG 20150427_040700.jpg
     
  45. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    That looks good. I see what you mean about the narrow pillars, no room to use a threaded hole.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  46. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Keith R... and musicguy like this.
  47. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Ray, Interesting as usual, but you can forget 17 century, more c1730-40. Though Charles Good (Without the "E") was working CC1686-d1730, and Loomes say sometimes, Goode. Maybe he made it with his last breath?? Best Allan.
     
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  48. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Allan, "GOODE. Charles. JAMES. Moughan. tof Elton. Thomas. 24:3:1692." From:
    Clockmakers’ Company Masters and their Apprentices. Transcribed from Atkins’ list of 1931. Regards Ray
     
  49. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Ray - the long diagonal on this maker's mark is very distinctive and I believe I have found an exact match in Grimwade. I think it is the mark of Richard Bell who registered an exactly similar mark on 22/8/1734. He is designated as a small worker. Small workers were not included in the works of Priestley and I have found a number of distinctive small workers marks on watch cases. This is what Grimwald has to say ...

    Son of Richard Bell of St. Olaves, Southwark, gentleman, apprenticed to John Peirce 24 March 1724 on payment of £21. Free 1 April 1735, only mark entered as a small worker 22 August 1734. Address: Mugwell Street 'over against Surgeons Hall'.

    John
     
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  50. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Only one problem John, I don't think that in c1734 Cases were as deep as the Case I have? Regards Ray
     

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