Centering bushings

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
This seems to have worked to get the bushing centered but I just wondered if other machines perform similarly?
 

bruce linde

ADMIN / MODERATOR
NAWCC Member
Donor
Nov 13, 2011
9,128
1,473
113
oakland, ca.
clockhappy.com
Country
Region
i can't see how he's got the plate clamped so it won't move, but on my K&D bushing tool there are clamps on either side that can be used to lock the plate in position. i find it's a bit of a dance as i start to tighten down to secure positioning while checking how the center finder comes down in the pivot hole. i make minute (my-nute, not min-it!) adjustments until i've got things truly centered and that bit comes down perfectly.... and do the final lockdown before proceeding.

this of course assumes that one has mirrored any pivot hole wear 180 degrees away, so that center truly is maintained.
 

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
Thanks, Bruce. This is my machine. I'm just trying to learn the ins and outs of using it.
20210304_151122.jpg
This is the result of a bush hole I cut with it after I attempted to verify the center. The finer line was very close to the center and the other was off a bit in the direction it is in the pic before I cut the hole so, I believe it did a decent job. I'm surprised at how much it looked like it was orbiting around when I did the video.
20210304_151122.jpg 20210308_144747.jpg 20210308_144705.jpg 20210308_144719.jpg 20210308_144743.jpg
 

JimmyOz

Registered User
Feb 21, 2008
961
240
43
66
Gold Coast Qld
Country
Region
When cutting large pivot holes graduate up to the final size rather than forceing it with one cutter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: THTanner

ToddT

NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jun 23, 2020
53
23
8
57
48444
Country
Region
It looks like something about the center finder itself isn't straight, like there is some sort of runout at the tip. The plate isn't being moved but the tip is wobbling as it's rotated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave T

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
It looks like something about the center finder itself isn't straight, like there is some sort of runout at the tip. The plate isn't being moved but the tip is wobbling as it's rotated.
Yes, it looks way off in the video but then I did the crosshairs on a hole and it came out fairly good. See post #3. I've since done a clock that needed more than 10 bushings and it's on my test stand purring away right now.
I'm still investigating the reason for that orbiting in the tool. I think it might be the bit holder has a slightly oversized hole for holding the reamers. It has a little too much play.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,379
2,133
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
The center locator will center on the unworn part of the hole. You have to allow the plate to move as you press down firmly with the tool. Then while still holding it in position, lock down the plates with the other hand. Raise and lower the point a couple of times to verify that it hasn't moved. It should have no resistance entering or exiting the hole. If that feels good, you can insert the reamer and slowly apply downward pressure as you allow the reamer to nibble the "good" side of the hole. When it's done nibbling, you'll see and feel that the hole is now round. At that point, use more downward pressure to finish it up.
 
  • Love
Reactions: disciple_dan

R. Croswell

Registered User
Apr 4, 2006
11,112
1,186
113
Trappe, Md.
www.greenfieldclockshop.com
Country
Region
............I'm still investigating the reason for that orbiting in the tool. I think it might be the bit holder has a slightly oversized hole for holding the reamers. It has a little too much play.
There is definitely a problem with your machine setup and you will need to resolve that before it will be of much use to you. If the center finder fits loose that's no good. If that is the case I would also be concerned whether the reamers also fit loose. Then there is the possibility that the tool holder was improperly machined with an off-center hole. Who is the maker of this machine and is it new? If you have a lathe you can chuck the tool holder and easily see if the hole in the tool holder runs true. The centering bits sold by some suppliers are crap. If the reamers and the center locater all fit loose you will have a problem forever unless you have a new tool holder made that fits and runs true.

RC
 

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
If the reamers and the center locater all fit loose you will have a problem forever unless you have a new tool holder made that fits and runs true.
Yeah, the machine's piston is nice and tight, I think it's fine. It's the bit holder. I think the hole was drilled too large. It has a set screw that is pushing it over to one side and I think that is where the orbiting is coming from. I'm going to ask the maker to look at his specs and make another for me.
I'll let you know how it turns out.
Thanks, Danny
20210304_151033.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave T

MuensterMann

Registered User
Mar 23, 2008
1,538
21
38
I have a centering bit like the one used here - and I found the tip was not centered. I stopped using it.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,379
2,133
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
That last picture looks suspicious. It might be an illusion, but that tip sure looks tilted.
 

NEW65

Registered User
Nov 17, 2010
1,539
69
48
United Kingdom
Country
Region
Thanks Dan and sorry for late reply... hoping the above info has made things clear. Shutt's comment on using the machine is spot on though.. well done with that movement though :)
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
14,781
1,744
113
For bushing work, everything has to be "on axis". Your tooling needs some serious work there. Do you have a dial indicator?
Willie X
 

JimmyOz

Registered User
Feb 21, 2008
961
240
43
66
Gold Coast Qld
Country
Region
You said it was a KWM, is it new? I would send them an email with the links to your video's and ask for a 'Please Explain' :banghead::mallet:
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,379
2,133
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
What I see with the centers is a lot more than the dial shows, but it does show some runout. There are different things that can cause the issue you are seeing. It is clear that you can't use the tool the way it is. How much slop do you have when inserting the cutters/centering points? The set screw should not move the cutter when you are tightening it down. It should only hold it in position. You might have too much slop there at the chuck.
 

NEW65

Registered User
Nov 17, 2010
1,539
69
48
United Kingdom
Country
Region
Hi Dan. Yes I was going to ask if the machine is new? I have studied your very good videos, good filming by the way! The only think I can think is what Shutt mentioned... is there any play in the cutters when its been inserted because that would cause this issue when the screw is tightened. I cannot think of any other reason. The cutter should be a spot on snug fit when positioned??
 

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
Simon, Yes, it's a brand new Keystone. I am convinced that is the issue. I'm not sure what to do about it short of making a new bit holder which I don't have the ability to do. I was thinking that the tool that I have for hand bushing is the same way. What if I didn't use the set screw and after I nibble out a little on the original side of the hole then the reamer will find its own center just as it does when doing it by hand?
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,379
2,133
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
You don't want the reamer to find its own center. It will go to the center of the wear instead of the center of the original hole.
Your chuck is basically a hole the same size as the tops of the reamers. A handy person with a larger lathe could make a new one for you.
 

Jerry Kieffer

NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
May 31, 2005
2,997
589
113
wisconsin
Country
This seems to have worked to get the bushing centered but I just wondered if other machines perform similarly?
Dan
A tapered point that is not running perfectly true is of little use.
One that runs true, will only reliably center a perfectly round hole.

As such, I do not use a tapered point to center on a original pivot holes.

My personal method and equipment is as follows with reasons shown and explained.

(1) A point inserted in a egg shaped hole in real life will wander all over the place in that it is only held in place by a very sharp edge that deforms very easily. As such it can wander very easily as seen in the first Two photos. The first photo shows a egg shaped hole to be bushed. To test centering, I mounted the KWM point in a vise and set the plate over the point. As you can see from the back side it is far from centering itself on the original hole per the red arrow.

(2) When I personally center on the original hole, I use a snug fitting gage pin mounted in a small milling machine that is also used for bushing.
The third photo shows the gage pin that has locked itself into the original pivot hole cavity and exposes the degree of wear that has occurred.

While the gage pin is used to center the mill spindle on the original pivot hole, it is also initially used to evaluate wear to determine if bushing is required. If so, it is then set aside to line bore/ ream the original pivot hole size in the bushing where desired after bushing.

Jerry Kieffer


fullsizeoutput_81b.jpeg fullsizeoutput_81a.jpeg fullsizeoutput_815.jpeg
 

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
Hey, [name removed]. I'm sorry to have to bother you with this but it is just unavoidable. I'm attaching a couple more pics of the tool in action. In these pictures, I'm not using the centering tool but I'm lining up the round part of the reamer and getting it set in the original side of the pivot hole. I have the flat side of the reamer parallel with the line of the two pivots that have their gears and pinions working together.
In the second set of pictures, I have turned the bushing tool arbor 180 degrees and the flat side of the reamer is parallel to the same line. As you can see, the reamer has moved away from the original hole.
What's happening, I believe, is the hole in the reamer holder is too large and it is being pushed over to one side and causing the reamer to orbit around the hole.
How much would it cost me to get your machinist to make me another bit holder with a little bit smaller hole? Do you think that will fix the problem?
What can I do? Help me find the solution so we can get back to work.
Thanks, Have a great day, Danny 813-562-0650
20210314_170629.jpg 20210314_170635.jpg 20210314_170749.jpg 20210314_170754.jpg
He asked me to send it back so he could find the problem.
Thanks, Danny
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,379
2,133
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Send what back? The bushing tool? That would be good .... but if you're talking about the centering point, it's not going to help ;) Keep us posted on how it goes.
 

NEW65

Registered User
Nov 17, 2010
1,539
69
48
United Kingdom
Country
Region
It has kinda put me off investing in bushing machine now . If your machine is new Danny you should not be having all this carry on. I really hope you get this sorted soon as your machine is no good like this. I also noted what TEACLOCKS said about bushing machines so I will not be investing in one now. I’ll stick to bushing by hand and probably get the Mill now.
keep us updated ??
 

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
Send what back? The bushing tool?
Yes, I'm sending the tool back so he can find the problem. I trust him to make it right. He has sold many of these machines and never had a callback. I'm sure he'll get it back to me soon in working order.
Simon, I've been doing it by hand for years also but my hands don't work as well now. I have a lot of pain in them so I really need this machine to work well. These machines have been around for many years and they do work and do a good job if used properly. I'll get it worked out.
Thanks to all, Danny
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,379
2,133
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
If I could go back 20 years, I would invest in a mill instead of a bushing machine too! But I got mine really cheap and it's been good for me. I still might, if I knew how many years I have in front of me :)
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
14,781
1,744
113
Did you send the centering bits back, along with the bushing tool? Willie X
 

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
If I could go back 20 years
Did you send the centering bits back, along with the bushing tool? Willie X
If I could go back 20 years I would go back 40 and become a clockmaker instead of a builder. Really, I wish I had been born in the mid-1800s. I would have been an inventor. I would have loved being involved in the industrial revolution. But, I'd be dead now so I will continue the path that God has chosen for me.
Willie, the bits are just typical KWM reamers. I didn't think to send them. I'll ask my guy if he wants the ones that came with the machine. I guess they could be faulty.
Ok, I'll let you know more as soon as I know more, Be blessed, Danny
 
Last edited by a moderator:

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
Hey, I sent it back to the manufacture for inspection and he said he couldn't find anything wrong. I have it back now and have put in a couple of bushing with good success. I don't know. Maybe it was me. I still can't explain the way it acted in those tests I was doing. I'm going to use it on some of my own clocks for a while and make sure it's good.
Thanks for asking, If there are any issues I will let you know. Danny
 

MuensterMann

Registered User
Mar 23, 2008
1,538
21
38
As mentioned earlier, I have the same problem. I am not sure what it is at this point. However, I am planning to switch my bushing method to a Sherline mill. I like the use of pins to be on center and it seems to be a more accurate method.
 

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
Cool, I have a Sherline lathe on the way here now and hope in a year or so I'll be able to add the mill.
What bushing machine do you have?
 
Last edited:

POWERSTROKE

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
1,332
91
48
I’m with Phelan on this. Aren’t the cuckoo movements hard
To set up with all the pins etc that jut out? I sometimes have to think about how to get a bushing in after it is reamed because all of the things that poke out of the plates. I’ve had only very small amount of problems reaming and bushing by hand and it was early in in this adventure. I also rarely see insane bushing wear on a cuckoo movment. Some off the old Baduf movements like to cut into the plate in the second wheel rear because of those smaller pivots, and they’ll run well for quite a long time as they do this. I must be able to hold center really well when I ream for the cuckoos or people just like the machines for speed.
 

MuensterMann

Registered User
Mar 23, 2008
1,538
21
38
I am not sure what bushing machine I have in terms of who made it. It is black heavy one that I pickup. It doesn't have a name on it and I don't see any similar for sale on the major clock suppliers. All my tooling seems to be straight - except a long cone that I bought from Timesavers. The center point is not centered and a circular rotation of this bit shows how far off it is. It CANNOT be used for finding the original center of bushings. I have another centering tool that I use that is shorter and not shaped so much like a cone. It is KWM.
 

D.th.munroe

Registered User
Feb 15, 2018
948
318
63
39
BC Canada
Country
Region
That sounds a bit like a webster bushing tool Muenster.
Along these lines I just received a replacement KWM shaft for a machine I was trying to make useful for someone and the new shaft is bent more than the old one was. over .6mm run out.
(I would've just made one but the big lathe and tooling is in storage)
Dan
 

Mike Phelan

Registered User
Dec 17, 2003
10,277
109
63
West Yorkshire, England
Country
Region
In the fifty years that I've been repairing clocks (not a living, I hasten to add!) I have never had or needed a bushing tool.

However, a a depthing tool I find is essential - I made mine decades ago!
 

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
Hey, Mike. Nobody really needs one, but they sure are nice. It is certainly possible to do it by hand. I hope you are thankful that God spared you the agony of Arthritis. When your knuckles are swollen and sore it can be a very painful experience.
I got the kinks worked out of my bushing tool and I have learned how to use it. I'm so thankful for it.
Now, back to bushing. Have a happy day, Danny
 

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
I'm satisfied that my machine is doing a good job centering the bushing. It's up to my skills to get it to do that. I'm doing some bushing today and as I was removing the centering tool to install the reamer I thought why not just use the reamer as the centering tool also? It's half of the diameter of the bushing I'm installing and very nicely tapered. Why not turn the half-round tapered side to the original site of the bearing hole, make sure it looks good in the hole, and call that the center? When it's time to start cutting, turn it 180 degrees and nibble a few half turns away at the original site of the hole first to relieve any push back and then ream the hole?
Would that present any problems that I haven't considered?
Thanks, Danny
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,379
2,133
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
I've never tried it that way, but as long as the reamer is true I can't think of a good reason for it not working. It would be a bit clumsy getting the plate secured that way.
 

disciple_dan

Donor
Mar 10, 2016
1,172
106
63
63
Plant City
Country
Region
Hey, Shutterbug. I just finished 12 bushings in an ST 89. It has the oil sinks stamped in the plate around the original bearings. I'm not sure if they do that before or after drilling the hole. I'd think it was before. It would deform the hole if they did it after drilling.
Anyway, all but one of the bushings came out looking fairly well centered in the oil sink. I'm not sure if the original bearings were centered or not but this one is pretty far off. I guess maybe I wasn't watching close enough. It's the T4 wheel and the end opposite the lantern pinion. I don't have the springs installed yet but I did assemble the wheels and it's turning with little resistance. I hope it will be ok.
I didn't take any pics while I was doing this bushing job but I will on the next one and post them here if you are interested.
I'll let you know how the clock runs when I get it all assembled.
Thanks for your interest. Learning to use this machine has been a nerve-racking experience. Danny
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,379
2,133
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
No, Danny - those stamped holes cannot be relied on for accuracy. Quite often the hole is not centered in the stamped oil sinks. If you notice, they only stamp the visible plate that way. It was evidently thought that they make the movement look better.
 

Similar threads

Replies
6
Views
893
David Holk
D
P
Replies
10
Views
1K
proconsul
P

Forum statistics

Threads
168,216
Messages
1,467,021
Members
48,171
Latest member
garyray
Encyclopedia Pages
1,060
Total wiki contributions
2,955
Last update
-