Celebrate repair?

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
Hi, I think I’m going to attempt to repair this Celebrate Westminster chime. I’m thinking of doing pivot polishing, disassembly, and cleaning. I have not inspected the movement yet and will not disassemble it until I find out any issues (will post pics tomorrow). I thought this might be a good goal to get since it’s my spring break. Any comments or advice would be more than helpful. Thanks.

Isn’t this a pretty movement?

CC2FDAC8-390F-4FAC-935F-C476B364DB3E.jpeg
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,418
2,142
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
You are probably ready for the challenge. Take lots of pictures, go slow, separate the trains so you don't accidentally mix them up. In many ways, chiming clocks are easier than striking clocks .... just more parts. Most of the final adjustments can be made after you get it back together.
Yes, it is pretty :) It's not common to have jewels in a pendulum clock.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Salsagev

tracerjack

Registered User
Jun 6, 2016
1,891
292
83
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
I also found it helpful to remove the top straps from the movement before trying to take it out. I also put them back on only after getting the movement in. As for separating the barrels and springs, are you referring to the mainsprings or the chime barrel and chains?
 

tracerjack

Registered User
Jun 6, 2016
1,891
292
83
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
You are still not telling me which barrels you are talking about. But for the chime barrel, photos, photos, photos. For the mainspring barrels, keeping entire trains (including mainspring barrels) together, cleaning them in separate batches, is the best way to keep things right.
 

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
Yes, sorry. The spring barrels. Do they need disassembly and kerosene soaked? Do they also matter which spring they get if they are all out; should I only take one spring out at a time?
 

chimeclockfan

NAWCC Member
Dec 21, 2006
4,661
516
113
WI
Country
Region
The springs can come out without taking apart the entire movement.
LET SPRINGS DOWN ENTIRELY, then take off their sashes and clickwheels.
The arbor should pull right out, allowing the barrel to come out of the movement.

All springs are different sizes and should not be mixed.
These are among the easier clocks to disassemble. They also use very few parts
compared to other three train chime movements.

Movement64.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Salsagev

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
14,810
1,751
113
Yes, one at a time. Look up "servicing main springs". Look closely, the barrels and caps may already be marked. If so, hopefully they were properly marked?

No need to mark all three. Just the time barrel will be sufficient on ALL clocks, assuming the chime barrel is bigger. Single train movements get a free ride.:) All the caps should be marked before removal, so they can be put back in the same alignment with the barrel; this is not really necessary on mass produced clocks but a good habit just the same.

Waxed paper ice cream cartons, or small plastic tubs, can be your best friend when it comes to keeping the trains separate.

Willie X
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Salsagev

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,418
2,142
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Undo either, but the same on all of them. Then you can separate the hammer assembly from the movement. Keeping the chains hooked to the hammer assembly would make things easier. Regarding the mainsprings, they won't need replacing unless they are broken.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Salsagev

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
Finally got this out. That was the hardest movement removal I ever done. What’s the point of concern with this movement? Thanks.
 

chimeclockfan

NAWCC Member
Dec 21, 2006
4,661
516
113
WI
Country
Region
They're very good movements but with age and wear I find these are the most common wear points to watch for:

1. Grub gear arbor stripping, resulting in the grub gear becoming loose & not turning the chime drum effectively.
2. Stop pins on chime/strike warning wheels becoming bent up - only seen this on one movement but worth keeping in mind.
3. Escapement anchor's adjustable crutch stripping on its arbor.
4. 2nd wheels' bushings wearing out on all trains - common wear point on all German 3 train movements.

It can happen anywear and you have to repair it for the clock to actually run.
A clean movement with wear will not work well.
 

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
Is this the grub gear your referring to? 38F89E7C-14EE-4BDE-8830-22C8321B8F17.jpeg
Also, whats that square arbor on that anchor do? 3F5A29F2-138E-4D9F-88A0-753C88197FE4.jpeg

The second wheel pivot: 7F930363-51DE-4E34-95BB-A278B654EFDF.jpeg
 

chimeclockfan

NAWCC Member
Dec 21, 2006
4,661
516
113
WI
Country
Region
Yes, tightens crutch, yes.
 

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
Thanks for the advice!
I think everything seems to be in good to very good condition. Not a major scratch anywhere.

Now that the problems have been accessed, any preparation I should do before disassembly?
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
14,810
1,751
113
Sals,
If this is a working clock, I would just oil it, re case it and wait on some non working less complicated clock/s to come along. As I often say, starting with the complex is not a good idea. :) Willie X
 
Last edited:

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
If this is a working clock, I would just oil it, re case it and wait on some non working less complicated clock/s to come along. As I often say, starting with the complex is not a good idea. :) Willie X
Yes, but I’ve went through a lot of mud trying to get the chain links undone and the movement out.
I’ve done a bunch of two train movements (and I think I only done one one train movement).

Nonetheless, what do you think I should work on next? Over a hundred of choices:^.

14F089B0-1D70-4D77-8389-2150F936C999.jpeg 4203D4A5-7AA5-4244-A803-62167874141B.jpeg EBDA45BD-88E3-4644-8DD5-C7FBF793F5C7.jpeg F7EDBF56-86C6-4156-8EB8-F08F649C5640.jpeg 381B1848-20F6-46B8-B7C4-5E2E429A2A30.jpeg 39180D74-89AA-4DBB-A282-019B497F6FEC.jpeg 79E76C92-1E5E-437F-ACA5-CB57215E6E42.jpeg
 

tracerjack

Registered User
Jun 6, 2016
1,891
292
83
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
Since you already have the movement out of the case, if you really want to tackle a three train, set this one up and watch it work ( if it does). If it doesn’t, you might want to pull a three train that does. See if you can identify how each lever and cam functions before taking one apart. Look for cams and levers between the plates. Take photos of everything. You may end up wishing you’d followed WillieX’s advice. If that happens, you can always bag up the parts and store them until you get more experience. Personally, I find the three trains easier to put back together than some two trains. The hard part of three trains is when it’s back together. Trying to get everything to work in sync can be a lesson in patience and perseverance.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,418
2,142
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Go for it. We're here to help if you get in trouble. You've been around for a while and have several movements under your belt, so it's time for the plunge. Go slow. Have fun.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,418
2,142
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Not unless you find a need to.
 

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
Well something bad has happened...

The gathering pallet became loose for some reason. CCF suggested I punch it back. How can I achieve this? Thanks.

E78E9426-DB1B-4C52-B7A5-668C703E6ACD.jpeg
 

tracerjack

Registered User
Jun 6, 2016
1,891
292
83
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
For right now, you can hand press it on. It will hold well enough to let it work until you are ready to take it apart. When you are completely finished with it, and everything works as it should, a hollow punch and a very light tap with a small hammer.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,418
2,142
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
If you happen to bush the other end, be sure to support the bushing when you tap it on. It's frustrating to push out a bushing when the clock is almost finished ;)
 

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
I got the Celebrate back together.
The issue I am having now is the resynchronization. The quarter chime "4 way" teeth thingy doesn't seen to lift the quarters enough. I have no pics yet. Thanks
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,418
2,142
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Do you meant hammer lift is low?
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,418
2,142
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Check your center arbor. They are forced downward from lifting the chime levers, and when the wear is too great, they can no longer lift high enough. Operating the chimes by hand generally overcomes that issue, so it's easy to miss. Wiggle it up and down. If there's quite a bit of movement there, you'll have to bush it.
 

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
Update: I have (or think) I got the chime sequence figured out pretty good (good news) but may have worsened problems...

Bad news: I have lost one chime washer. I have accidentally broke the suspension spring somehow (It's such a weird shaped suspension spring that I have no idea what to do.). The chime lever activator's nut is pretty stubborn when it comes to screwing and unscrewing. It's like it's stripped or something. Kinda anxious right now but there is nothing I can really do at this moment. I really need to clean up my table.

Advice appreciated. Thanks.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,418
2,142
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
You will be able to fix it. Don't panic yet. Post some pictures so we can coach you through the issues.
 

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
The clock is back together and in its case but will need to be taken back out because the hour chime is inconsistent.


Anybody had the issue of a clock behaving when it is out of the case but starts being problematic once reinstalled to its case?


Gonna be annoying because the dial doesn’t come off on this clock. Glad I left the chain links undone knowing some issues may occur.
 

chimeclockfan

NAWCC Member
Dec 21, 2006
4,661
516
113
WI
Country
Region
This is why chime clock movements must be fully tested before going back in their cases.
There are many small defects that tend to go unnoticed when a slap-dash check is all it gets.
Also check that the thin black tab springs that hold the chime levers in place have not failed to hold tension.
They are usually the first part to go bad on these movements.
 

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
Maybe later I can go back to the clock but not this moment.

I usually use the case as the Movement test stand.
 

kinsler33

Registered User
Aug 17, 2014
3,762
534
113
74
Lancaster, Ohio, USA
Country
Region
The clock is back together and in its case but will need to be taken back out because the hour chime is inconsistent.


Anybody had the issue of a clock behaving when it is out of the case but starts being problematic once reinstalled to its case?


Gonna be annoying because the dial doesn’t come off on this clock. Glad I left the chain links undone knowing some issues may occur.
If the movement stops in its case, try loosening the mounting screws that hold the movement into the case. These can twist the movement plates (as will the torque of fully-wound mainsprings) and if that happens, any pivot that's bushed too tightly will seize up. And while you're at it, check for any nails or other potential obstructions that might be poking into the movement. This usually only happens on cuckoo clocks, but it's worth checking.

M Kinsler
 
  • Like
Reactions: Salsagev

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
If the movement stops in its case, try loosening the mounting screws that hold the movement into the case. These can twist the movement plates (as will the torque of fully-wound mainsprings) and if that happens, any pivot that's bushed too tightly will seize up. And while you're at it, check for any nails or other potential obstructions that might be poking into the movement. This usually only happens on cuckoo clocks, but it's worth checking.

M Kinsler
Thanks. It’s not the movement that stops but the rack and snail assembly not dropping correctly. This clock is pretty unique as it doesn’t mount directly in the case but a seat board with a few brackets holding securing it.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,418
2,142
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Sometimes there's a spring for the rack hook that uses the post that the rack goes on as a brace. If yours has that arrangement, be sure the spring is not under the rack shaft. If it is, the rack will be too tight against the e-clip and can't fall correctly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Salsagev

chimeclockfan

NAWCC Member
Dec 21, 2006
4,661
516
113
WI
Country
Region
Also make sure the e-clip is not too tight against the plate, otherwise the lever it clips will not work.
Just had that happen on a Celebrate I worked on earlier this year: clip was too tight and the rack hook stayed up.
Wondered why it was striking 50 o'clock! Loosened spacing between plate and clip just a trifle, all worked again. Hah.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vernon and Salsagev

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
The clock is pretty much done. My overall thoughts of the clock were that the setup produced quality results but was tight and inaccessible, like a Prius.


Here are my entire steps:

1) Remove hands and pendulum.
2) Undo the chain links.
3) Removed the hammer unit from movement.
4) Undo the movement to seatboard screws.
5) Maneuver the movement out.
6) Letdown the springs, access damage, and took lots of pictures of everything especially the chime stuff.
7) Unscrew all the levers nuts. (Leaving movement posts and escapement bridge on).
7a) unscrew the mainspring bridge and take the arbor out to let the barrel fall out. (Separated stuff/trains in drawers)
8) Unscrew the nuts of the chime plates and separate parts.
9) Carefully lift the plates to allow pictures while everything was in position.
10) Brush each gear carefully and pre wash plates before ultrasonic.
All pivots were fine.
11) SEPARATELY (trains), popped the mainspring caps off and use mainspring winder to extract springs. Cleaned and oil with Slicklube. Reinserted springs and popped the cap on using the clamp method.
12) Reassemble based on the trains and pictures (easy, surprisingly)(without barrels).
13) Put back the levers according to the pictures.
14) Put the barrels back in the same as I took out.
15) Resynchronization (time consuming).
16) Reverse steps from 5-1.

Any thoughts or missing steps? Thanks.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,418
2,142
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
Since most of your experience is with cuckoo's, I suspect that some of those bushings actually needed replacing. Cuckoo's like to be sloppy, but other types of clocks need them to be tighter. Time will tell ;)
 
Last edited:

chimeclockfan

NAWCC Member
Dec 21, 2006
4,661
516
113
WI
Country
Region
The work list looks alright.
Celebrate movement bushings must be tight as a bumble bee's butt.
Any slop in the bushings will cause the chimes to prematurely stall during the week.
Clocks that got lubed with bad quality grease are usually the worse for wear once the grease goes dry.
There are so many clocks out there that have been 'restored' without checking the bushings, resulting in poor chimes.
 

Salsagev

Registered User
Feb 6, 2020
1,589
231
63
15
Madison
www.youtube.com
Country
Region
Since most of your experience is with cuckoo's, I suspect that some of those bushings actually needed replacing. Cuckoo's like to be sloppy, but other types of clocks need them to be tighter. Time will tell ;)
You mean cuckoos need bushings? I never done a cuckoo before.


I promise, there were no bushings that needed replacement.
 

tracerjack

Registered User
Jun 6, 2016
1,891
292
83
Lodi, CA
Country
Region
On these heavy, well made movements, I suspect that those that don’t need bushings have remained idle far longer than they ran, so the wear on them is minimal. Once kept working for another 20+ years, they will most likely need them.
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
47,418
2,142
113
North Carolina
Country
Region

Forum statistics

Threads
168,305
Messages
1,467,949
Members
48,234
Latest member
mehedi94
Encyclopedia Pages
1,060
Total wiki contributions
2,955
Last update
-