Cases with Faces.

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by MrRoundel, Apr 21, 2019.

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  1. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Since the nicest case I have houses a Swiss movement, I didn't add it to the fine case thread on the American PW section. My Golay, Fils, an Stahl is a beauty of a multi-color 18k bold, and it has an interesting, Mercury-like face on it in white gold. So I'll open my Swiss case and see what turns up in the "Cases with Faces". Enjoy.

    golay_2.jpg
     
  2. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    I read your post on the American side and came here to see your case, simply beautiful.

    I am going to show an American case and a Swiss case together since the face is actually the pendant on both cases. I think the design similarity is amazing.

    DSC_0002 (3)-002.JPG DSC_008s.jpg
     
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  3. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I love those Crown heads and I am always on the look out for them
    since you posted them on the forum.


    Rob
     
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  4. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    I too like those faces on/as the pendants. In fact, if you bought that one on that auction site about 15 years ago, I may have been an under-bidder. I remember seeing one, and probably bidding, quite a few years ago. No matter what, those are great faces on cases. And they both have a style of shoulders that sit nicely below the heads. Thanks for adding your fine cases to the thread. Cheers.
     
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  5. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    I know it is not a competition. It is about sharing. But well, send prize. (Mike drop..boom!) 20994000_10214241847422695_4663944229466722860_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.jpg
     
  6. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    That fork-fed moon was quite inspired and beautifully carried out. I love that there's a real interaction, a feeling of motion, going on between the cherub and the moon. And I love the diamonds on the outside of the crescent. Really special piece, Jeff. Thanks for posting the image.
     
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  7. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    Perhaps my most curious case-with-a-face is this Elgin Grade 156 in a 14k W.W.C.Co. hunter case. I had always thought the case was decorated with peacock feathers until someone told me that he saw a bear face on the case. Now, I no longer can see the peacock feathers.

    IMG_0664_edited.JPG
     
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  8. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hey Jeff, I thought it was the man in the Moon? Really like the Case. Regards Ray
     
  9. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Today my copy of Ian Whites new book arrived fresh from the AHS. "The Majesty of the Chinese-Market watch" The Life and Collection of Gustave Loup of Tientsin and Geneva Watch Dealer and Collector (1876-1961). Having read this thread yesterday I thought this was the place to tell you about this book. Jeff you will have to try a little harder in this race. See photographs below, and these are nothing compared to some that come later in the book, all I can say is the book is worth every penny, and I highly reccomend the book to all members.
    Regards,
    Allan.

    IMG_7173.JPG IMG_7175.JPG IMG_7176.JPG IMG_7177.JPG
     
  10. SKennedy

    SKennedy Registered User

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    Does this one count?

    _MG_4086.JPG
     
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  11. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    I think this one's escaped from a balance cock; how can a few engraved lines convey so much mischief?

    DSCF4071 - Copy.JPG

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  12. D Magner

    D Magner Registered User
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  13. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    One has to look closely to find the Monkey's face, second face, 1850's horse.

    Keith R...

    100_2832 (800x600).jpg 103_7669 (800x600).jpg
     
  14. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    This is one of the oddest watches I have seen and it has two faces. I also am showing its marking. It has both English and Swiss hallmarks.
    pendant_back_s.jpg dial_sm.jpg Outerback_s.jpg
     
  15. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    ok get ready. I know this is not a competition. But. Ok. Get ready. :)
     
  16. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    It's American. So sue me!

    20190425_112406.jpg 20190425_112517.jpg 20190425_112712.jpg 20190425_112720.jpg
     
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  17. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Jeff, who made the case and are there any
    markings in the case. Can you post some photos the inside



    Rob
     
  18. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Fantastic looking Pocket Watch Jeff. Regards Ray
     
  19. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    Serial number of the case is 101 leading to me to believe it was a one-of-a-kind. I bought it from a Midwestern fellow the speculation is that it may have been made for the Columbian exposition.
     
  20. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    That case is just fabulous Jeff.

    What's the size of that Illinois movement?
     
  21. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    I'm not convinced by the "English hallmarks". The combination of crowned leopard's head with lion passant would indicate a date between 1756 and 1783 (assuming that the case is gold), the date letter U (if London) would be for 1815 or 1895, there is no Crown mark, and there is no casemaker's mark. So the "English hallmarks" are fakes ... which is very strange goven that the Swiss marks look authentic.
     
  22. John Matthews

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    Or are they?

    Dr Jon/Martin - yesterday morning I looked at these hallmarks and turned to my now well-worn Bradbury - 3 hours later, I was still looking! So thinking it had been despatched to the waste bin and gone for ever, I spent the afternoon ordering a replacement (incidentally there is a new version available, in standard and hard copy form). I forgot about these hallmarks.

    Martin's post reminded me. So I have just turned to Jackson - my backup.

    If this was silver, the crowned leopard's head 'U' & the lion passant without a duty mark would be for 1815 up to 4 July, after that it should have a duty mark. Martin's point, regarding the absence of a crown & 18, is, according to Jackson, absolutely correct. Now it could be that they are stamped outside the field of view - problem solved. However, according to Jackson, if the gold was 22ct and not 18ct - the marks are correct - i.e. no 18 + crown for 22ct. The 18ct mark was introduced in 1798. So one other possibility is that the Swiss assay mark 18.K implies the minimum grade, but when it was assayed in London it was discovered to be 22ct and was so stamped. Just an early morning thought ...

    I would be happier if I could identify the maker's mark (EHT, EAT, ERT ? ?) not in Priestley or Jackson - a search of makers marks for 'small workers' might yield reward, if it is a English maker's mark

    John
     
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  23. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Duty marks on watch cases were abolished in the Act of 1798, which also reintroduced the 18 carat standard as you say.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  24. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Jeff-I would say you have your nose in front at the moment, but there is a long way to go.
     
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  25. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I wonder, do these keys count:???: They were attached to the watch at least once a day, in day´s gone by??

    IMG_7181.JPG IMG_7183.JPG IMG_7182.JPG
     
  26. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Hi Graham - thanks for causing me to abandon Jackson in favour of Priestley as my backup :).

    I should have used his tables that clearly show the duty marks on cases were limited to 1784 to 1798. Your post also caused me to read Priestley's narrative and I then understood why you said 'reintroduction of the 18ct. standard' - it being the old standard that was introduced in1477 by Edward IV and being raised to 22ct. by Queen Elizabeth I in 1575/6.

    John
     
  27. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Dear Dr. Jon- I took another look at your watch on post 14, and there are one or two points I think could be answered if we knew the date of the watch. or a photograph of the movement. Looking at the style of case and dial the impression is it could have been made about 1820 to 1830 if English if Swiss it could be later. What worries me is the fact the Swiss never used 18K, they used 18C when they used it at all, and this after 1880. 18K is excepted as an American mark. Then there are the letters ERT. I think it would help if people were to look at Edward Raworth of Tennessee (Nashville) So it would be very good of you if you could help with a couple of photographs.
    Best wishes,
    Allan.
    IMG_7184.JPG
     
  28. zedric

    zedric Registered User

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  29. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Beautiful case, Jeff! That took a lot of work, didn't it?

    I can't help but wonder if it was engraved, OK sculpted really, by someone like the US coin artist, George T. Morgan. It sure looks a lot like the head/face, in profile, on a Morgan dollar, doesn't it? Even the cotton flowers in Liberty's hair look very similar. It was at least inspired by Morgan's design. Of course, depending on what year yours was made, maybe Morgan was inspired by it? Regardless, it is a real work of art. Thanks for showing it. Cheers.
     
  30. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    My watch, as a mentioned os very strange. I had the UK marks ID's as about 1815. The cuvette is there the interesting stuff lies.
    cuvette_s.jpg

    To my knowledge there was never a Brunner Brothers jeweler in New York and I have gone through the business directories if New York at the New York Public Library looking for the company. There was a Brunner in Paris. This is not the only part of the description which is wrong as shown by the movement

    movement_r.jpg , which is very nice Breguet curb compensated lever.

    My theory is that this was salesman's demonstration piece showing that:
    1) They could recycle a nice old case
    2) Make a lovely cuvette
    3) Provide any kind of high grade movement

    I think the case was stretched a bit in resizing it from and English to a Swiss watch. I have and have seen some others like this but accurately described by the cuvette and with real retailer's names and one other watch like this one with a fake ENglish name on it, which I surmise was to use to try to sell the English retailers.

    I date teh movement and final work on the case to the 1840's.

    I think having two faces on this case is very appropriate for this watch
     
  31. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    But there were two Brunners at the same address in successive trade directories ...

    1839 Londworths - first appearance of Joseph

    upload_2019-4-26_23-9-52.png

    1845 & 1846 Doggetts- Joseph a jeweller

    upload_2019-4-26_22-58-23.png

    1847 & 1848 Doggetts - Bartholomew - a watchmaker also Joseph 'watches' at different address

    upload_2019-4-26_23-0-25.png

    1865 Trows - Joseph at different address

    upload_2019-4-26_23-7-49.png

    and from a very quick search they could be brothers who emigrated from Switzerland and then Bartholomew dying in 1849 and hence absence from later records ...

    upload_2019-4-26_23-26-2.png

    upload_2019-4-26_23-26-37.png

    A comprehensive search might yield confirmation ....

    John
     
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  32. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    Thanks, very interesting. 1846-1847 is a reasonable date for the watch. I do not recall whether I fond these in my previou search, which was several years ago. Still there was not Brunner Brothers as such, but this may be bit pedantic and it was a long time ago.
     
  33. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Thank you for taking the trouble to post the above photographs, a really nice watch. I see too John Matthews has produced some very good research, which helps my current research. I have been listing French, Swiss, and American watchmakers (retailor´s, Jewellers) from a repair book of a well-known firm in New York. On quite a few pages I found the owners name, and then the watch he wanted to be cleaned or repaired. some of these watches were listed as Brothers. Not being able to find them, like you, I listed them for later research. So now thanks to the above I can list them with the others. I do have "SILVERSMITHS & RELATED CRAFTSMEN in the 1839 NEW YORK CITY DIRECTORY" and Joseph Brunner is listed "watchmaker 475 Pearl"
    Regards,
    Allan.
     
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  34. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    Some of my reluctance to take the two Brunners as Brunner Brothers is that when there is a brother relationship as part of the business it was usually stated in the business names. for example Galt and Brother, a very high end Washington DC retailer. OTOH the dating of the two brothers being in the same place is also a good date for the watch. Very neat insight from John M on this.

    In response to Marty, I had not thought much about whether the fourth mark is missing. The marks are a bit distorted and the fourth mark if there may have rubbed out. I will check the gold content when I next use my tester.

    The case has two numbers as shown. The number 3538 is also punched on the dial plate under the dial. I believe the other number was that of the movement originally in the case. Thus the movement and case do go together in spite of the description on the cuvette being wrong.
     
  35. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    I'd be very surprised if it isn't 18K. For that I would rely on the Neuchatel chevron and the "!8K" mark (which I assume to be a Swiss punch). I'm only doubting the validity of the three "English" marks (again I assume that the maker's mark "EAT" or whatever is Swiss). I further have no idea why anyone would want to add English marks (unless they were import marks) to an entirely valid set of Swiss marks, or vice versa :???:
     
  36. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Dear Dr, John, sorry this took so long, I must admit I owe you an apology. George Brunner of New York ( Watchmaker at 475 Pearl 1839). I somehow got mixed up with Brothers Melly, who in fact, is a Geneve trademark. When I first saw the Brothers Melly it did not say Geneve,(see below) and jumped in with both feet, thinking they were in New York. I then came across the other photograph, though there was a gap of some two weeks. Sorry,:rolleyes: Allan.

    IMG_7205.JPG IMG_7206.JPG
     
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  37. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Is it a man in the moon in Australia? In Japan it is a rabbit. They can't see a man's face, I can't see a rabbit.
     
  38. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Sorry folks, no Rabbits??

    IMG_6193 (1).JPG
     
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  39. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Let me remind everyone that we have rules here regarding offensive images, and prurient posts - especially those which are completely off-topic or amount to ribald comment - will be removed.

    The previous post is being reviewed by the Moderators.
     
  40. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Seeing as I have been singled out; I have no idea what you are talking about; I will remind the you that so called "Smutty" comment and images or comments were pretty common in the times that early Pocket Watches were made. I had no idea that we were a bunch of Prudes on this Forum. I think that it was I wrote that "She could jump into my place anytime", comment about the previous image; is the image going to be taken off the Forum? I object most strongly the imputation that I did something wrong. Regards Ray
     
  41. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I assumed he was referring to Allan's naked lady.
     
  42. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Nick, about a 3rd of the population of the Northern Territory walk around Naked. Regards Ray
     
  43. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Yes but this site is hosted in the US. They wouldn't like that.
     
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  44. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #44 Omexa, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
    My comment (if this is what is objected to?) was a totally innocent comment and not implying anything sexual. Wake up Moderators!!! Put my comment here on the forum so that other people can have their opinion? I probably would not have objected if on the Forum it said We have deleted Rays post because of and reason; but hiding behind walls is not done in the Northern Territory. Regards Ray
     
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  45. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    This is what I get when I attempt to see what was objected to:
    NAWCC Message Board - Error
    You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action. This may be Goodbye. Regards Ray
     
  46. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Please stop Ray(said in a VERY VERY nice way). We didn't remove the image of the watch case you commented on
    only your comment about the image on the watch case. If you have problems with the rules
    please contact Marty.
     
  47. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Please PM me the Comment, I am not happy about this. I have already contacted Martin. I will not put up with Rubbish. Regards Ray
     
  48. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    This is my final comment on this; the Moderators prudish and mistaken attitude has ruined a very good post; Moderator please remove all my comments. Regards Ray
     
  49. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You are taking this very personally, Ray. You've virtually replaced your original comment in subsequent posts, and so far they are still there. We're still debating whether the image is acceptable. It really has little to do with the thread. We understand you were being humorous in your comment, which was also (like the picture) way off topic. Give it some time. We'll no doubt arrive at some sort of consensus soon.
     
  50. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Just got back from my visit to the UK, very nice too, shame you could not be there Ray the beer was wonderful. Then I find the above if that is not a face on a case I give up The artistry of the female form goes back as far as Adam & Eve, though it could be said this is a religious comment, which is also against the rules. So I will just say I have not got an erotic watch, shame on me, they show some really sweet pictures of faces on cases. One last remark, I wonder what the mods do with Dr, Crott´s catalogue´s??
     

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