Carriage clock speed adjustment

[doug sinclair]

Dr. Craig,

To be running out that much in a day means that it is NOT running properly! Running at best, but not properly! There is not enough scope on the regulator to allow for up to one hour in a day. At best, the regulator might span from - 10 minutes on the slow side to + 10 minutes on the fast side, provided the clock is running properly. Your clock needs more that regulation. Repair first, THEN regulation. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Scottie-TX]

Reads like your balance assembly ( plus probably the clock entirely ) is dirty and your balance is not full - cycling. What DOUG said.

 

[Mike Phelan]

Or magnetised, oil on hairspring, or the second turn of the hairspring is caught in the regulator. What is its history?

 

[steve45jm]

Hi Doc.

Your Elliot and Son carriage clock was made in China. Even if it says "Made in France" on the face and/or the back plate, it's still made in China. The movements are not well made, to say the least. There have been many complaints on this Board re. clocks that have been made in China, and you will find it quite dificult, if not impossible, to get the movement to work accurately, but I wish you luck.

Sorry about that.

Steve

 

[leeinv66]

Or it needs a new mainspring. Low power will cause the balance not to rotate fully.

Cheers
Peter

 

[Ansomnia]

Two months ago, I saw another small "Elliott & Son, London" carriage clock being offered by an evening street hawker off Nathan Road in Hong Kong. He wanted HKD 800 for it - USD 100. I was only curious. The other stuff he had on his table were various small brass ornaments and tourist souvenirs.

You can tell they are made in China by the type of brass they use and by the machining characteristics. There are other cues. I mentioned my bad experiences with Chinese clocks in another post. Well, at least your clock runs.

If the clock is "new", I suspect the platform escapement was not calibrated before it left the factory. I believe the balance should be set to vibrate at the standard 18,000 beats per hour. Proper adjustments can be attempted by a watchmaker or an experienced watch repair person but this is not a great clock and I have to wonder if the costs are justifiable. You can read up on "springing and timing" in de Carle's book "Practical Watch Repair".

My impression of these clocks is that the people who made them did not put much attention into actually having them work. They just want your money.


Michael

 

[doug sinclair]

Michael,

the balance should be set to vibrate at the standard 18,000 beats per minute

 

[Ansomnia]

Originally posted by doug sinclair:
Michael,

the balance should be set to vibrate at the standard 18,000 beats per minute

Thanks for catching that mistake Doug - I meant to say 18,000 beats per HOUR...I imagine it's pretty impossible to visually discern 18,000 beats per minute!

The method described by de Carle used a device often represented by a "Luthy Vibrator"; essentially a metal platform that allows an technician to suspend the balance being calibrated directly over a reference balance that is encased in a glass-covered enclosure. The device has a lever mechanism that simultaneously sets both balances vibrating and the test balance is calibrated when it is in step with the reference balance.

I imagine this sort of work requires a certain amount of skill mixed in with natural ability. I found the following job description for a "hairspring vibrator" on the Internet (could not find a picture of the Luthy Vibrator though).

Hairspring vibrator job description

If you read through the job description it will give you an idea of how balance wheels are calibrated. In the job description, a cathode-ray tube device appears to be used in lieu of the mechanical Luthy-type vibrator.


Michael

 

[doug sinclair]

Michael,

The way I see it, Dr. Craig's clock suffers either from poor operating condition, or, as Steve has mentioned, poor quality. If poor operating condition is the reason the clock doesn't keep time, that would have to be attended to first. If poor quality is the problem, that might be a whole lot tougher to deal with! We don't know enough about the clock to really predict what the solution will be. Is it possible that someone before Dr. Craig tampered with the hairspring in an attempt to solve an erratic rate? If so, further messing around with the hairspring is not the answer. If the clock is of sufficient quality that one might expect decent timekeeping, and if the clock hasn't been compromised by inept handling, then thorough conditioning and minor adjusting is likely all that is necessary. If it is of poor quality and has been handled badly, I don't like its chances! A hairspring vibrator would be a last resort, after all other factors were dealt with.

 

[Ansomnia]

Originally posted by doug sinclair:
Michael,

The way I see it, Dr. Craig's clock suffers either from poor operating condition, or, as Steve has mentioned, poor quality.

...
A hairspring vibrator would be a last resort, after all other factors were dealt with.

Doug, I wasn't suggesting anyone to go get a hairspring vibrator. Please have a look at my messages again.

I said if the clock were NEW then I suspect the platform was not calibrated. You have to have seen first-hand and owned these clocks to know what I mean regarding lack of quality in manufacture.

A good Luthy vibrator will set you back between $700 and $1000 - if you can manage to locate one. IMO, the clock is not worth more than $100 even in proper working condition.

I was merely describing the calibrating process stated in de Carle's book. It would be fair to presume NAWCC readers might want to consider the calibration of balances as a technical point of interest. It is of critical importance for anyone who wants to fix carriage clocks.

In fact, if a person wants to seriously work on platform escapements today, you might want to use something like a MicroSet timer instead. With such a modern timer, it's much more affordable and easier to achieve the accuracy you want and you get to use it to work on other clock timing problems as well. IMO, the Luthy vibrator is really more for the collector or for an experienced repair person who wants to enjoy the experience of using period technique and equipment.


Michael

 

[doug sinclair]

Michael,

I didn't say that a hairspring vibrator had no place in trying to solve the problem of the erratic clock. I said it would be a last resort, after everything else that might interfere with a good rate was out of the way.

Here is a picture of a hairspring vibrator, for those who've heard of them but never seen one. This one shows a balance wheel suspended above the table in a position to permit vibrating it. If you look closely, you can see a black arm beneath the glass of the table. That is an index which oscillates as the balance wheel oscillates, allowing easier reference. This tool is not mine, unfortunately!

 

[Ansomnia]

Originally posted by doug sinclair:
Michael,

I didn't say that a hairspring vibrator had no place in trying to solve the problem of the erratic clock. I said it would be a last resort, after everything else that might interfere with a good rate was out of the way.

Doug, I agree with you that with well-made carriage timepieces that were known to have worked properly, the platform is usually not the first place to look for a problem unless you spot evidence of a mishap on the platform (i.e. someone mangled it).

However, if the clock is NEW and has never worked properly and is Chinese then I would disagree with you based on my past experience.

I think it is fair to say that with Chinese imitation antique timepieces, all the components and any aspect of their assembly may be suspect.

With Western timepieces, they at least use expensive Swiss or German platforms which are likely of higher quality than the rest of the clock. But with the Chinese clocks I speak of, the platforms are not necessarily in any better condition than the rest of the clock. It may not even be due to shoddy manufacture but due to the way they are acquired and assembled. I know this because I have lived many years in that part of the world and I know the way and the conditions under which many businesses work. I am very familiar with the mentality and the practices.


Michael

 

[doug sinclair]

Michael,

Well then! From what you have said, perhaps the vibrator WOULD be a good place to start. I am not familiar with these Chinese clocks.

 

[Ansomnia]

Originally posted by doug sinclair:
Michael,

Well then! From what you have said, perhaps the vibrator WOULD be a good place to start. I am not familiar with these Chinese clocks.

Actually, as I suggested earlier, IMO the clock isn't worth the hassles of professional services for the platform and neither is it worth the price of a hairspring vibrator.

I was trying to inform readers that such a clock may require the facilities and knowledge that a watchmaker or watchrepair person would have. If you are this person then great. If you are not, then you may not be able to fix the clock or indeed you may not want to.

These Chinese clocks are for the uninformed, the impulse buyer or the curious buyer. They are not serious timepieces. For me, who owns 2 of them, identical non-working ones - one actually sent to me as a replacement, they are purely educational and items that if I mangle, would not be of any consequence to me.

Back to Dr. Craig's clock - Doug, I would like your expert opinion here.

Is it reasonable to determine if the index has any bearing on the problem by swinging it to the F or FAST side to see if it has an effect on the speed? If it does make the clock run even faster then perhaps an index adjustment can correct the speed problem. If the index position has minimal impact then the balance. in its current state, is not likely to correct the clock's problem. The hairspring may be way too short or completely of the wrong type for the balance.

OTOH, if the index position does significantly alter the speed of the clock and there is an extra length of hairspring sticking out from the end of the stud, is it possible or a good idea to position that forward, in essence slightly lengthening the coil at the end of the hairspring? I believe this is what hairspring vibrator technicians do when calibrating balances to vibrate slower.


Michael

 

[doug sinclair]

Michael,

You stated your opinion. I stated my opinion. You took exception to my position. I withdrew my assertion. I prefer not to comment any further on this!

 

[Ansomnia]

Doug, I apologize if my comments seem to contradict yours. They weren't meant to question your expertise.

I hold your expertise in the highest regard and I am simply adding the dimensions of specific personal experiences and cultural knowledge. My input is not from personal technical knowledge or experience. I leave that to you and other experts, including de Carle.

I have had nasty personal experiences with Chinese clocks and really want to inform others of potential problems.

At the same time, I try to take great care in carefully wording my messages. I would like to learn and be helpful at the same time but being misunderstood greatly impacts the value of my comments so I rigorously defend them if I feel I have been misunderstood.

I like debates and always attempt them in an objective but rigorous manner. I used to do very similar work for a living and it is second nature to me.

There's another aspect of regulating balances that I would like to investigate. I wonder if the balance can be made to vibrate slower by using temperature adjustments. Is it possible the balance is not properly adjusted for temperature where Dr. Craig is running his clock? Anyway, I'm just guessing as I haven't attempted this before myself.


Michael

 

[oldticker]

I bought a small carriage also marked 'Elliott and Son'.

It had obviously been added to the enamel dial some time after manufacture. It was a different colour to the Roman numerals for a start.
it is a genuine solid movement with a vintage proper platform made to the clock.

I have come across a few of these and I think they are being done like this to fool people into thinking they are made by a genuine decent maker thus increasing their resell value to the untrained eye.

I bought the carriage in the full knowledge it was not genuine because I needed the movement as a replacement.

I have also serviced a number of genuine China made carriage movements recently and they are indeed a very cheaply made piece of junk.
Quite a few have 'Alain' on the back plate.

Back to the problem.
I think the hairspring could have been pulled through the pinhole or replaced at some stage of it's life.
Would like to see pics if you have them.

 

[Ansomnia]

This is a photo of a typical "Elliot & Son" clock:

http://www.coote.demon.co.uk/it566_01z.jpg

Here is a side view:

http://www.coote.demon.co.uk/it566_02z.jpg

There's an almost identical clock on eBay at the moment. Here's the URL for it:

A Chinese clock of Elliot & Son format

And here's a photo from that ad. All they did at the factory is change the cases which are essentially the same basic case. If you study the photos well you can easily figure out and spot other imitation French clocks from the same maker:



Further up the eBay list is the same clock sold by another person from China - the seller has a music clip that loads up when you load up the weboage:

Same thing as Elliot & Son

At least you know these clocks are Chinese. However, both these clocks have "Made in France" printed on their dials. This sort of reminds me of what German factory violin makers did in the 19th and early 20th Centuries. It was "normal" practice to fake violin maker labels for Stradivari, Steiner, Guadanini, Amati, ...etc. Many of the violins were poorly made but many were also very well-made and have become good and reasonably valuable instruments in their own rights. I should add the fact that the buyers of that time generally knew the labels were faked.

China actually has a very long history of fascination with clocks and the craftsmen there are very capable of turning out good work. I think the poor clocks they are making today are simply the result of "unfortunate" business mentality.


Michael

 

[Ansomnia]

DC, you need to do a couple of things to make it easier for us to help you with your clock hands.

First, it would help if we knew what sort of hands you are looking for - are they exactly as shown in the photos I provided references to?

Second, you need to measure the hands you want replacements for. I find that sizing is a killer problem when trying to locate the correct hands for an "old" clock. You need to measure centre to tip lengths for both the hour and minute hands.

If the hands you want are exactly like those shown in the photos I referred to then they are "Gothic trefoil" style hands and are fairly common. Since the Chinese obviously make them you should be able to find them. You may even want to contact the people who are selling the clocks on eBay and see if they will source you the hands from China. They may live or work close to the factories.

However, I should add that the hands chosen by the factory for the "Elliot & Son" clocks are the wrong size for the dial. It's another reason why these clocks are so miserable.


Michael

 

[oldticker]

I was asked to repair rhe clock for an antique dealer, who apparently does not know that he has an imitation European carriage clock.

China is in europe?

 

[Mike Phelan]

Originally posted by oldticker:

I was asked to repair rhe clock for an antique dealer, who apparently does not know that he has an imitation European carriage clock.

China is in europe?

When we are all asleep, some of our USA friends move countries and towns around the planet. When you awake, you may find that Cardiff and Glasgow are in England, that England is in Europe, Dublin is in the UK.
Only a small problem, therefore, to put China in Europe, except that it may not fit, and all the Chinese population would sink it. :biggrin: