Cant get gathering pallet off of Hubert Herr cuckoo 8 day

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Chris M., Feb 23, 2020.

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  1. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Hello - Trying to get a Hubert Herr cuckoo clock running for a friend. I have never worked on a Hubert Herr movement before. Not too worried (taking lots of photos as I disassemble the movement) but I can not get the gathering pallet off. I have tried some Liquid Wrench on the arbor and have tried prying the gathering pallet off with various implements with no success. I have bent the arbor some (and scratched up the front plate some - not happy about this), but hope to bend it back straight(ish) once I get the gathering pallet off. Any tricks would be much appreciated. Thank you, Chris M.
     
  2. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    Have you tried a hand puller? Is that pivot hole bad? Maybe leave it be if the pivot hole is ok.
     
  3. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
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    I use one of these pullers or the pry bars from opposing sides with even pressure. Some use paint can openers

    IMG_20200223_201206.jpg
     
    Bruce Alexander likes this.
  4. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    small torch or soldering iron to pallet while using puller.
    Good luck
     
  5. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    I agree with Vernon. Two thinned paint can openers applied opposite of one another usually will do the trick for me. After removing the Rack, access from below is no problem, but you need two pry points to avoid bending the Arbor.
     
  6. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Thank you for your replies. I will try those ideas. Chris M.
     
  7. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Since you don't know who has messed with it before, don't discount the possibility that it has been soldered on or another type of bonding has been used. Try heating it up and see how that goes.
     
  8. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    I just did my first one of these this weekend. 13 bushings later I had no trouble removing the GP by placing needle nose pliers underneath and gently prying and turning it little by little taking my time. Note the position of the lever on the back of the arbor and the pallet, makes for easier assembly. Also note the location of the strike wheel, getting all this timed back is a bit fussy.
     
  9. John P

    John P Registered User
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    The paint can openers work great on that pallet and others like the chime cam, stop cam etc. I have 2 sets that have different angles at the foot,
    a clock man's must have tools
     
  10. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Thank you! The paint can openers (2) worked great! P.S. I accidentally started another thread on this clock - different question/problem but same clock. Sorry. Chris
     
  11. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    It’s not all that fussy if you put the warning pin against the lever in reassembly. Then when the plates are on, and the pin is stopped at the lever, put the lever on the front of the plate that has the pin on it that rests in the gathering pallet. When the warning pin is stopped internally, put the pin on the outside in the groove of the go and you should be in good shape.
     
  12. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Can anyone describe how to adjust the minute hand on a Hubert Herr 8-day cuckoo movement? I am most familiar with antique cuckoo movements and Regula. The Hubert Herr hand arrangement is more like the antique movements Ive seen. Hoping there is an easy trick to get the minute hand straight up and down when strikes. Thank you for any advice. Chris
     
  13. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
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    The nut in the minute hand is friction fit to the hand and indexed to the hand shaft. Just loosen the outer most nut on the hand shaft, rotate the minute hand then retighten. There should be a cupped washer under the outer most nut.
     
  14. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Thank you for your response. The minute hand has a square hole for the minute hand arbor (not a round hole with a friction fit nut as in Regula movements) and there is a nut immediately in contact with the minute hand that screws down to tighten. Then there is a cone shaped nut that screws on at the tip of the hand arbor. Inboard from the minute hand and sitting in front of the hour hand tube are two spacers and a thin chrome washer with a square hole. See photos. The minute hand spins too easily, with almost no resistance, unless the nuts are in place. When the nuts are in place they can be tightened such that there is a good deal of resistance to moving the minute hand. My problems: 1) the minute hand is past straight up and straight down at the strike and 2) I think that you can tighten the hands tightly enough to cause the time train to stop. I am completely unfamiliar with this hand set up. I assume this is pretty straight forward, but being a rookie, I just have not encountered in the past. Advice? Thank you in advance, Chris

    IMG_9985.JPG IMG_9986.JPG IMG_9987.JPG IMG_9988.JPG IMG_9989.JPG IMG_9990.JPG
     
  15. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
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    You will have to move the snail by unmeshing it from the idler pinion. If your photo is the position in which it strikes, slide the snail out a little and turn it counter clockwise to the twelve then remesh. You will want to check that the rack clears the snail at the 12 to 1 position.

    That is how I would try to fix it but I would wait to see if someone else has advice.
     
  16. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    The snail will only move the hour cannon, not the minute hand. You'll probably have to split the plates again and move the position of the pinion of the minute arbor. Alternately, you could ream out the square hole and then flatten a square hand washer and glue it on the back of the hand in the position you need it in. That will run the minute hand fine, but you'll have to remember to adjust the time with the square, not the hand, because it may not be strong enough.
     
  17. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Ok, I can see that. How do you get the minute hand arbor to be in the right position? Sounds like it would be just luck to have it square when movement strikes.

    What about the tightness of the minute hand arbor? it is super loose unless the hand nuts are tightened down, so loose that the minute hand does not advance. Also, it seems like the hand nuts can be tightened enough to slow the time train or make the time train want to stop. Is that normal? Thank you. Chris
     
  18. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    It's normal for it not to move the hands until there is pressure applied to them, but not normal that tightening them down stops the movement. The nut behind the minute hand might have to be screwed out so it's closer to the hand. Then tighten the hand against it with the nut.
     
  19. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    I've done this once to repair a damaged plastic minute hand. I roughened the mating surfaces and used J-B Weld ClearWeld Epoxy. I've been careful not to torque the hand. I adjust time by applying force near the hub and not the end. That was over a year ago. We keep the clock running 24/7 with periodic adjustments/regulations and while a year isn't very long, so far it has held up well.
     
  20. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Is there a trick to positioning the minute hand arbor successfully so will strike straight up and down when reassembled? Thank you. Chris
     
  21. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I don't remember where the lift for warning is on those. If it's on the outside of the movement, it's just a matter of coordinating the final drop with the position of the minute arbor. If inside, it would have to be adjusted as you build the train. Is yours lifted by pins? Got a pic?
     
  22. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Ok, I think I have the minute hand position when striking fixed. I filed out the minute hand hole to be round and accept a brass inset washer like on Regula minute hands. The inset washer on these Regula hands have a square hole - I had to enlarge the square hole to fit the minute hand arbor of this Hubert Herr movement. I don't have the other half of this "sandwich" hand nut set up (the inset portion with the round hole on a Regula minute hand) - not sure if I will need this part to make this work.
     
  23. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    New problem: The movement was running pretty well on the test stand (tick and pendulum swing seemed a little weak) so I put it back in the case. Strike train running great and strong. The time train is running very weak with a very weak tick and eventually stops. Does anyone have an idea about why a movement might run weaker in the case than out of the case? Also, what would make the strike train run weak? I cleaned and re-bushed as usual, but movement was not very dirty and was pretty new when I got the clock for repair. I thought maybe just needed lubrication but cleaned anyway. Two pivot holes were a little loose, so I rebushed those two - they were not very badly affected but rebushed anyway. This is the first 8-day movement I've worked on and also the first Hubert Herr movement I've worked on. My instinct is to take movement apart and use a smoothing broach on the time train pivot holes to loosen them up a bit. Any other advice or experience would be much appreciated. Opinions? Thank you. Chris

    squirrel2.JPG squirrel3.JPG squirrel4.JPG squirrel5.JPG squirrel6.JPG squirrel7.PNG squirrell1.JPG
     
  24. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    I just repaired a regula one day that is symptomatic of this. I have a thread somewhere here on it. It actually ran fine through the 24 hour cycle for two weeks. It would stop when I wound it, annoyed me terribly. I would go to restart it and might stop and then would start and run. Then it developed som other small annoying problem. i never liked the smallest swing on this particular movment. I couldn’t figure it out either as it was as smooth as butter by hand. I literally had rhat movment in and out of the case 10 times and split 4 or maybe more. A loose perch rod retaining hook is what made me take it out and put a spare in. A couple days later with it running in a test stand, curiosity got to me and I changed the verge with a spare and it seems the swing has increased some. I don’t know if I have the full three inch swing like I prefer to have, but it may be close. Have you checked the pallets on the verge etc? The 8 days also do not tolerate any inconsistencies. I actually don’t like them as they’re really finicky. I think you have a tight bushing or maybe a pallet with a rut in it, or someone else has riddled with it before you. I myself, have been convinced through my repairs that I will not Bush a cuckoo movment unless the holes are oblong. Any round hole, even if a little sloppy should probably be left alone. The ocd in a repair person makes them want to Bush anything that is looser than ideal, but it will usually cause more harm than good.
    On another note, I think I’ve repaired about 40 regulas already. This one I speak of above is an outlier in that it’s been nothing but trouble.
     
  25. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    My first Herr 8 day I went for it and put 10 bushings in it and over a month later it's running fine. My second one I put four bushings in and have the same problem as you. The strike 2 minutes after the hour, won't run consistently. Smooth broach the bushings and free them up. Also make sure you put a slight chamfer in the bushings where they meet the arbor. These Herrs look better built but sure are finicky.
     
  26. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    I think the Herr movement are better made. Harder to set up because of the internal strike wheel. Over bushing is bad.
     
  27. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Thank you both for your comments and suggestions. I will take apart and smooth broach all of the time side pivot holes and especially the two bushings I installed. I will check the pallet faces on the verge (but don't have a spare for an 8-day Hubert Herr, so...). The swing of the pendulum is lousy and the tick is weak and quiet. I think 8-day movements want to stop running more so than the one day movements. They seem weaker to me. On a separate note, I really like the antique cuckoo movements - built to last and repair. Not finicky about running. Both the modern day Regula and Hubert Herr movements are mass produced and chintzy in comparison. "They don't make em like they used to". Thanks, Chris
     
  28. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    #28 POWERSTROKE, Apr 5, 2020 at 10:52 AM
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020 at 10:57 AM
    It’s kit that it’s weak. You have an extra wheel in there in both sides. So there is less room for any amount of friction. Conceptually it’s all the same. The more wheels in a train, the less tolerance for any amount of friction, ho much total swing at the bottom of the pendulum is there? I personally like 2.75-3” or greater, how does the time train feel when you run it in your hands manually without the verge? Is the verge/crutch adjusted properly? Do you have the correct sizes weights? It’s amazing what people have down to these clocks over the years. The “new” movements have been around for almost 100 years I would say. Or close to it. They run and will run if done properly. The guys in here will instruct you to remove the movement and replace it for the most part. I disagree. I’ve had good success with repair. I think every once in a while, you’ll get a bum movement that is hard to diagnose because maybe there are multiple things going on. Is there a bent pivot? My bet is you have power loss at the escape wheel or verge/pallets, or you have a tight bushing. Leave them loose.
     
  29. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    How do you adjust the verge on a modern movement? There is no retainer for the verge/crutch on a screw like with antique movements - so you can't move the retainer up and down. Also, are you reassembling without the verge first and then sneaking the verge in once checked both trains with thumb pressure? i do this with the antique movements but have not been with Regula and this Herr because no retainer on a screw so would have to loosen plates to get verge in there later and risk everything getting out of whack. Thanks. Chris
     
  30. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    You can sneak it in by loosening the plates. With no issues. You can also order a new one from timesavers for a couple dollars. I personally wouldn’t adjust one for what the price is of a new one.
     
  31. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    You can check that the movement is flat on its blocks before you screw it in, if not it will twist the movement causing frition
     
  32. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    It worked. Uninstalled movement from case and removed the back plate. Removed the time side wheels and smooth broached all of the time side pivot holes. Reinstalled the back plate and tested the time train with thumb pressure and without the verge. It ran a lot better than before - good momentum. Reinstalled the movement and it is ticking and striking like it should. Also, my jury rigged hand set up seems to be working well. Thanks for all of the tips and similar experiences. Chris
     
  33. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    May I ask what your total pendulum swing was before and after?
     
  34. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Not sure, didn't measure. Pretty much wouldn't run at all once I put the movement back in the case. Now after smooth broaching the pivot holes, it seems to be about 1.5 - 2" (not great). Also, movement ran all day today while I was at work, but movement stopped running over night (bummer) so I might have to split the plates again and smoothing broach pivot holes some more and maybe polish the pivots again. Really don't want to. Chris
     
  35. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    I have a movment like this tha I believe I had mentioned above. I strongly suspect the verge/pallets. My experience is that anything under 2” is not going to cut it on a Cuckoo. I can’t really get a straight answer on the subject either.(amplitude) When you start getting into the 2.5 and 3” swing it’s nice and powerful and you can see the very slight deflection in the pendulum rod as it’s almost being forced in the opposite direction.
    Maybe someone else can chime in here. What causes poor amplitude? If you’re pretty positive your bushing work is good. And you’re getting, like Chris, 1.5-2” swing on a cuckoo, what else should be looked at? Tight bushings, offcenter bushings? But what if this is not the case? I have a regula 25 that had many different things going on that is up on the bench running. I put another exact dated movment in for originality and it has 3.25” swing. 1 bushing on the t2r. The other one had 2.4” swing. Stopped when being wound, hard to keep going after that, cuckoo door was caught with its pants down once etc. I feel your pain with this. One difference is the one I had didn’t stop. So there is something definitely wrong with that. Does it have a very finicky setup for getting it in beat? I think that is a sure sign of poor power transmission. Like I said, please chime in to explain what causes this poor power if it’s not the bushings. The one Oli have had been split apartC 10 times and I’m still not “thrilled” with it. I did swap the verge with a spare and it seems better. But the other movment in the case is an extremely strong runner, and I’m not taking it out to retest this one.
     
  36. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    One easy test is to put the movement on a seat board and test it like that. If it runs well that way, but won't run well when testing using the movement legs to hang it, it's more than likely bushings that are too tight. The way cuckoo's are designed to hang in the case is not a good way to hang weight driven movements. That's the reason the pivot holes have to be a bit sloppy.
     

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