Cannon Pinion Repair

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by R&A, Jun 28, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    #1 R&A, Jun 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
    Have a cracked cannon pinion on the Eingraham T/S The spring broke and bent the pivots on the second wheel and cracked this part. I drilled a hole through the arbor to hold the tension spring back hole .046. Took the knurling down to a slip fit for the gear. Then held the gear on the arbor in a vise and drilled half way into the arbor and installed a pin between 2 teeth. << On one side of the crack. Then did the same thing on the other side of the crack between 2 teeth. Then when both sides were drilled and pinned. Pulled the pin out, that held back the tension spring. No solder, no superglue, or Epoxy.

    20190628_111708.jpg Cannon 1.jpg cannon 2.jpg cannon 3.jpg cannon 4.jpg
     
    TF73 likes this.
  2. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

    Mar 10, 2016
    398
    22
    18
    Male
    Clockmaker, General Flunky
    Apopka, Fl.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    R&A, thanks for the post. So, you're saying that worked. I don't know if you remember my post from a month or so ago called "another Ingraham" or maybe "dirty Ingraham" that Ingraham had a broken pinion also, or I should say still has. My repair didn't hold. I purchased another on ebay to get the part out of and it was broken also.
    I had thought about drilling some pins in the pinion but then scaped the idea. I'm so glad you were brave enough to try it.
    Let me ask you this. Instead of drilling the hole all the way thru to pin the tension spring, Do you think I can put the minute arbor in the vice with it altogether and the pinion gear against the side of the vise jaws ( not between) and push some tension on the spring and then clamp the arbor in the vice to hold the tension and then drill my half holes to pin the gear to the arbor? I think that would hold the pinion on the arbor where it needs to be and hold the correct tension long enough to drill and pin.
    I'm not ready to dig that movement out for repair right now but when I do I'm going to use that method.
    What do you think?
     
    tracerjack likes this.
  3. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,041
    286
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Squeeze the pinion shut and hold it there. With your jeweler's saw, cut a kerf across the teeth and across the crack, all the way down. Slip a piece of sheet brass into the kerf, and solder it. Remove excess with a small file.
     
    Kevin W. likes this.
  4. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    There is to much tension with that thick spring That is why I held it back while I drilled it.
     
    disciple_dan likes this.
  5. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    Seriously
     
  6. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,041
    286
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  7. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    Sorry it would interrupt the teeth, and then would have to file all that with the tension pushing on the gear. Not any stroke to file. I believe my approach is an alternative solution to have to avoid all that. Less work. But hey if that what you want to do and it works for you So be it.
     
  8. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,133
    471
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A cracked cannon pinion typically causes a clock failure in one of two different ways; the crack causes the spacing between the teeth on either side of the crack to increase causing the mating wheel to bind, and/or the crack allows the pinion to slip on the arbor. A proper repair should include relieving the tension that caused the crack in the first place and closing the crack and providing a means to ensure that the crack does not reopen and a means to retain the pinion in place on the arbor against the force of the clutch spring. This generally requires that the pinion be removed from the arbor and the inside diameter of the hole be relieved enough to allow the crack to be fully closed.

    I prefer boring out the pinion on a lathe and soldering in a bushing that can maintain the original friction fit without stressing the crack, which is held together as the bushing is soldered in place. Others here have recommended relieving the pinion ID, closing the crack, and soldering the pinion directly to the arbor. I have seen both methods work.

    Personally, I would not attempt to saw or drill holes in an already cracked pinion or attempt to close the crack without removing the pinion. I have not tried R&A's method or seen a clock in the shop that was repaired this way so all I can say is good luck and hope it holds up.

    RC
     
  9. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    hey RC It will hold up There isn't any presser from the gear being forced onto the arbor. The crack is closed.You can see that in the photo. Plus the only pressure is from the spring, it is held by the pins. These pinions fail from all the force that is applied from forcing the gear onto a knurl and they crack. This type of movement is known for this. I eliminated that force. Now the only force is from the tension spring. Problem solved.
     
  10. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,589
    581
    113
    Soldering can be used for an effective repair. I've been doing it this way for many years and there are many post on the subject.

    There is quite a bit of prep involved and the part has to be placed on the shaft in exactly the right place.

    Also, you need to know (or learn) the 'jewelers method' of soldering where a precise amount of solder is used. All methods where you hold a roll of solder in one hand and a torch in the other will not be satisfactory.

    Willie X
     
  11. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,164
    610
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I don't think that gear is part of the train, so the pressure on it is minimal. R&A's approach seems fine to me. The hard part would be getting the hole centered and straight through the arbor.
     
    R&A likes this.
  12. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,041
    286
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The method I suggested presupposes removing gear from arbor. I thought that would go without saying. :rolleyes:
     
  13. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    I try to put it in in a little bit of an angle so when it pulls back it locks it in so the gear can't separate. And drill between the teeth.
     
  14. TF73

    TF73 New Member

    Mar 5, 2019
    3
    3
    3
    Male
    Country Flag:
     
    R&A likes this.
  15. TF73

    TF73 New Member

    Mar 5, 2019
    3
    3
    3
    Male
    Country Flag:
    You always seem to amaze me. Your knowledge in clock repair is phenomenal. This is just another ingenious idea.
     
    R&A likes this.
  16. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    Okay the clock has been running for a week. After repairing this piece. I had to straighten 4 pivots. turn one shroud cap and straighten 3 gears. No teeth bent that was surprising. Plus had to replace one spring. And bush every hole except the winding arbors. Ta-da Goal completed
     
    breeze and disciple_dan like this.
  17. moe1942

    moe1942 Registered User

    Oct 25, 2010
    1,640
    14
    38
    retired USAF Etc..
    Alexandria, La
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Willie X has brought up a very necessary topic...soldering.I dare say that most don't know the proper way to solder. The area to be soldered must be tinned first.. I use a razor blade to shave off a small sliver of solder..More than enough. Any solder outside the joint is not holding anything..just looking ugly..I'll bet WillieX could describe this process much better..
     
    breeze likes this.
  18. breeze

    breeze Registered User

    May 2, 2010
    86
    7
    8
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I hammer the solder on an anvil until it is less than paper thin than it's ready to use. That's my opinion, but I could be wrong.

    breeze
     
  19. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    For those that really want to repair without solder and I see there isn't many. Then it's an option But my opinion about solder is that it is a lower from of repairing. And not very professional. Take it for what it's worth
     
  20. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,589
    581
    113
    It depends a lot on how good you are at soldering. :) Willie X
     
  21. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,041
    286
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  22. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,133
    471
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The part is broken, the "higher form of repair" of course would be to make a new cannon pinion or obtain a part from a salvaged movement.

    RC
     
  23. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,710
    215
    63
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Sometimes soldering is simply unavoidable. In the case of that Ingraham cannon pinion there was room for the holes Mr R&A drilled in both gear and arbor and for the pins he very skillfully installed. But sometimes there's no alternative. I've been learning to work with an American Beauty resistance soldering machine I bought on eBay. The first job consisted of repairing a very small strike-train pallet: the one that the star wheel lifts to raise the hammer. The star wheel had worn a neat slot right through the working edge of the pallet.

    My usual repair for this is to solder a small piece of suspension-spring steel over the slot and hope that the hardened steel will wear better than what the Germans used, and I've done this now and again with other clocks. But this was a very small pallet and my hand tremor was kicking up. So I fluxed the surfaces with some Burnley Never-Corrode-Evil-Brown-Soldering Paste,
    cut about 3/8" of my trusty 63/37 lead-tin solder and laid it on the damaged pallet, and balanced the tiny square of spring steel on that.

    Then came guesswork: I set the machine's voltage somewhere between 'fluff-dry' and 'permanent press' and, hoping for the best, grabbed the steel-solder-pallet sandwich between the 'jaws' of the plier-like soldering tool. I pressed down on the foot switch and watched smoke curl upwards, immediately after which the solder melted and filled every gap with a nice fillet of radio solder.
    It was on there quite solidly, so I just trimmed the spring-steel square a bit and re-assembled the clock. It runs fine.

    It's a used machine, and I paid $125.00 for it. I'll send reports in as I learn to use it. The pictures I was able to take are horrible and show nothing, so I'll try to have better ones next time.

    Mark Kinsler
     
  24. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    That would not be a repair it would be a replacement
     
  25. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,133
    471
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I guess we will just have to disagree on that point. The clock movement is what is dysfunctional and is being repaired by replacing a defective part of that movement. Repair jobs frequently involve the installation of new parts.

    RC
     
  26. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    You can call it anything you want.
    A replaced part is not a repair.
    It's installing or replacing with used or new parts.
    I actually repaired this part.
    It's not new, nor is it from another clock.
    It's an actual working repaired part.
    Say this three times.
     
  27. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,164
    610
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I just had new brakes and rotors put on my car. I took it to a repair shop for that, and they repaired it ;) Tomatoes and tomatoes methinks.
     
  28. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    Hum not clock related It doesn't compute
     
  29. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,041
    286
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    As to solder. I learned how to solder a long time ago, and I use it whenever it's convenient. But then...I know how to do i t. :)
     
  30. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,710
    215
    63
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    So you get a higher score if you repair the part rather than replacing it?
     
  31. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    You guys are really entertaining and so predictable.
     
  32. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,589
    581
    113
    An expert soldering job, removes no material, is not visable, and is also reversible. But, I can't think of any reason you would want to reverse a permanent repair. Puzzled, Willie X
     
  33. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    Reverse what repair. Stick with the post Your insinuating something I am not part of. I am giving an alternative solution without solder. Some of you seem to act like your insulted because I don't like solder. Be an expert and scroll on.
     
  34. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,133
    471
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    And that's a bad thing?

    If points are assigned for the quality of a "repair" the highest points go to the repair that most nearly returns the clock to the way it was when it left the factory. It did not have a cracked pinion, it did not have a soldered cracked pinion, it did not have a pinned cracked pinion. Several methods have been described to "fix" the broken part and return the clock to normal operation - take your pick, but none except replacing the pinion with one that isn't cracked can fully restore the clock to original condition. If one has the tooling, and the knowledge and skill to use it, reproducing the pinion to original specs may be the simpler choice of preference. That leaves me out so I'll have to settle for fewer points and opt for a method to restore the cracked pinion to usable if not original condition.

    Whether one choses to call the job a repair or a replacement is unimportant and generally depends on whether the part being replaced is or is not a component of a larger assembly. Replacing a whole non-working clock is clearly a replacement, Relative to the clock replacing the movement with a new one is a repair. Relative to the movement replacing a broken gear is a repair. Relative to the broken gear replacing with a new gear is a replacement. In this example the new gear is itself a replacement but the job on the clock is a repair. A rose by any other name........etc.

    RC
     
  35. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,710
    215
    63
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A lot of this depends on whether you are, or are working for, a clock collector. Most customers are delighted with any repair procedure that gets Grandma's clock working and keeps it that way for the next ten years or thirty years. Most repairmen are happy with any repair that ensures that the clock won't be coming back with the same complaint.

    Collectors vary as well. I know a family nearby whose house has room after room of bookshelves filled with clocks. Some work, some don't, but they keep only a few running, and they dust the rest of them. Others are devoted to four or five interesting clocks and want museum-grade repair work done thereupon--though museums don't generally keep their clocks running.


    And while clock owners have to be made happy, we must consider clock repairers as well. I understand that they are a proud and contentious bunch, and that their personal goals and standards vary widely. This last point is particularly difficult because there's no respected or enforced World Clock-Fixing Code to cite, if for no other reason than that there's 500 years of technology to contend with, and that much of the stuff we fix was retrieved just before being melted down into designer bathtub faucets.

    Our skill levels vary as well. Some of us take great pride and enjoyment in filing out a replacement strike rack, while others (like me) will spend the afternoon tweaking, stretching, soldering and occasionally gluing old parts until they work, and take great pride in _that_. Still others are skillful at dealing with eBay and the like, and take pride in finding replacement parts that will fit and function even though they're extracted from the most unlikely sources.

    My own personal pleasures include making customers happy, learning new tools, inventing techniques, and fooling around with fascinating old mechanisms. I also apparently enjoy writing posts here. And while I don't want to be an administrator, I would observe that many clock repairers, like me, are old and inclined to be on the crochety side especially when we're not feeling so well. That's why it's helpful to maintain a relatively respectful tone in these forums (fora?) for otherwise they cannot work to anyone's advantage.

    M Kinsler
     
    bangster likes this.
  36. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    For those that are skeptical of this repair. I ran this clock in the shop for 3 weeks and it's going home
     
  37. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,710
    215
    63
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It's a very fine repair, though those (like me) with less experience would have tried to avoid drilling through the arbor for fear of weakening the thing. Apparently that's not a concern on the minute arbor, which doesn't get any torque at all. My only gripe is that the repair is essentially invisible, so the photographs didn't help very much.
     
  38. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    Invisible is a good thing. If you look real close you can see where it has been pinned in 2 places.
     
  39. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    Well Haven't heard anything from the customer, So the repair is a success and without a hitch.
     
  40. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,133
    471
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I believe the greatest risks of failure for the type of repair you described are if the damaged pinion snaps into two pieces during the drilling/pinning operation, or the original crack isn't sufficiently closed to prevent binding with the mating gear in the motion works. The fact that you were able to execute the repair successfully and the clock ran OK in the shop suggests that it will probably not fail in the field. However it has only been in the field for a relatively short time.

    RC
     
  41. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    If in fact this were true I just might believe it.
    I have done this more than once this is not my first rodeo. I have been repairing clocks for over 43 years. I find it funny how you try to down talk this repair. Try to do it then report your maybe's and your if's and kind a sorta ramble. Or just move on
     
  42. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,133
    471
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    There are always at least four ways to do any repair, the right way, the wrong way, my way, and your way.
    Sorry you are offended, moving on!

    RC
     
  43. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    4,107
    81
    48
    Country Flag:
    This post has been looked at many times Therefore there is an interest. Some have a positive interest and some with not so positive. If you have never done this how could you possibly draw negative feed back. Maybe I should come to your shop and show you how it's done. My way isn't the only way but your comments are pretty uneducated, if you haven't done this repair this way.
    Thank you for moving on
     
  44. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,164
    610
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    OK guys. I'm closing this one down. Everything that needs to be said has been. When things turn personal it's time to stop posting.
     

Share This Page