Canadian Railroad Watches

[MikeB]

Hi -

I have owned two interesting "railroad" watches that came out of Canada.

The first was a later model 16S 23J Waltham Vanguard, and I just acquired a 1900 17J 18 size pendant set Waltham P.S. Bartlett, serial number 10,049,476, (which, I assume, may not have been railroad grade at that time in Canada). It also has a great double sunk Roman 24 hour dial.

I have a question regarding these watches:

Both of these watches came in high quality railroad style cases that appeared to be original to the movements. The Vanguard was housed in an "Empress Sturdy" case, while the P.S. Bartlett is housed in a "Derby Sturdy" rolled gold case. Both cases stated that they were made in Canada. The cases are very similiar, (one was 18 and the other was 16 size), and they both closely resemble Waltham's railroad case #4D, as pictured on page 131 of Shugart's 2001 watch price guide. (The only major difference is that these cases don't have screws beneath the crown).

Does anybody know about these Canadian "Sturdy" cases? Were Canadian Walthams being cased in them at the factory?


Thanks --
Mike.

 

[MikeB]

Hi -

I have owned two interesting "railroad" watches that came out of Canada.

The first was a later model 16S 23J Waltham Vanguard, and I just acquired a 1900 17J 18 size pendant set Waltham P.S. Bartlett, serial number 10,049,476, (which, I assume, may not have been railroad grade at that time in Canada). It also has a great double sunk Roman 24 hour dial.

I have a question regarding these watches:

Both of these watches came in high quality railroad style cases that appeared to be original to the movements. The Vanguard was housed in an "Empress Sturdy" case, while the P.S. Bartlett is housed in a "Derby Sturdy" rolled gold case. Both cases stated that they were made in Canada. The cases are very similiar, (one was 18 and the other was 16 size), and they both closely resemble Waltham's railroad case #4D, as pictured on page 131 of Shugart's 2001 watch price guide. (The only major difference is that these cases don't have screws beneath the crown).

Does anybody know about these Canadian "Sturdy" cases? Were Canadian Walthams being cased in them at the factory?


Thanks --
Mike.

 

[Larry Jones 98326]

Mike,

I'm pretty sure these were cased in Canada to help reduce import duty, maybe one of our Canadian contributors can add some detail.....

 

[MikeB]

Hi Again,

Here are some pics of the very pretty 18 size Canadian 17J adjusted Waltham P.S. Bartlett, as mentioned above. Is there any chance that this could have been "railroad grade" in Canada at the time of manufacture? (Probably not, but...)
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/477/24860-753.jpg
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/477/24860-752.jpg

Mike.

 

[Kent]

MikeB:

You said that the Vanguard was a later model. From that, I'd guess that you meant it was the 1623 Vanguard, produced in the 1940's and 50's. One of these in an Empress case is advertised in the T. Eaton 1953 Spring/Summer catalogue. The T. Eaton Co. of Toronto was a large retail and mail order house, at least as large as Montgomery Ward. They went bankrupt a few years ago and the stores may, or may not, still be open for business under a reorganization.

Fifty years earlier, the same company offered a series of Waltham 18-size watches in a variety of cases in their 1902-3 Fall And Winter Catalogue. As stated at the top of the page, watches denoted with an asterisk pass railway inspection. The P.S. Bartlett is not so noted, and is significantly lower in price that the least expensive watches that do pass inspection, the 17-jewel CPR or CRTS grades. The model `92 AT&Co., which was at the bottom of the model `92 line of railroad watches, is considerably more expensive than those two. Keep in mind that the prices shown are Canadian dollars.

Peter Kushnir, a former Canadian Pacific Time Service official, once described to me how watches used to be shipped to Canada from the U.S. For those that were supplied with cases, the movements, not mounted in the cases, would would arrive in the same boxes with the cases. Both were designated as "watch parts." Movements alone would also be purchased, to be mounted in Canadian cases. As Larry said, most of the time, this was done both to reduce import duties and also because the Canadians, like many people, preferred (and still do prefer) to buy domestic products,

Kent

[This message has been edited by Kent (edited 10-06-2001).]

 

[doug sinclair]

Mike,

Fellow NAWCC member Larry Buchan has a nice 1883 Waltham with the CPR beaver logo on the barrel bridge. It is S# 5742981 which is listed in the Waltham serial number list as: Grade 35, stem wound, 15 jewels, pendant set, open-faced, with patent regulator and Breguet hairspring, not "U" (unadjusted), or "A" (adjusted), but "P" (whatever that might mean). The movement is nickel, marked "Adjusted", and definitely has 17 jewels (not 15) in gold jewel settings. Larry purchased this watch from the daughter of the original owner, a lifelong CP conductor who used this watch for his entire career on the Canadian Pacific Railway. It has a 24-hour dial with all numerals in Arabic, the 1 to 12 numerals in bold black enamel placed radially, and the numerals 13 to 24 placed tangentially. The case is not marked as such, but it is silveroid (silverode?), and is marked with a crescent and star logo (Crescent Watch Case Co.?) The case is original and is not marked as to whether it is of Canadian origin or not. With the watch came all of the supporting items such as inspection cards, original receipt, chain, pouch, and other items such as brotherhood membership cards and regalia, and photographs of the original owner. It was used until well into the 1920s when the owner retired. It appears by the serial number list that this watch was put into service circa 1890-91 at which time the standards on many railroads for railroad watches were much like the later standards, but were perhaps more liberally interpreted by the Canadian railroads. Grandfathering seems to have made many watches such as this one still "legal" even after standards changed. Kent may have a comment on this.

Regards,
Doug S.

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[MikeB]

Hi Kent,

Thanks for all the info. The Vanguard I had (and have since sold) was EXACTLY like the one that you've pictured in the scan.

I was wondering what people thought about the case of the P.S. Bartlett I have pictured. There are no additional case screw marks, so the case "appears" to be original to the movement, yet this still has the look of a later case, (maybe 1920's to 1950's), while the movement dates to about 1900. (Just my opinion).

Any thoughts?

Mike.

 

[Tom Huber]

Mike, It is entriely possible that your 18S Waltham went into service in a different case. If used hard on the railroad or other line of work that caused damage to the case, the case probably wore out in the 1930's, at which time the owner took it in to be recased. The case that it is in might be the second or maybe the third case that the movement has seen. Still a great looking watch in a great case. Tom

 

[Kent]

Doug wrote:

... It appears by the serial number list that this watch was put into service circa 1890-91 at which time the standards on many railroads for railroad watches were much like the later standards, but were perhaps more liberally interpreted by the Canadian railroads. ... Kent may have a comment on this.

Ah Doug, you know me too well, I sure do have a comment on this!

Its obvious that you didn't receive your October Bulletin yet.

I don't think that Canadian railways were any less professional than their counterparts down south, and I doubt that they were any more liberal. It took until around 1906-1908 before the watch requirements settled down to those with which everybody seems to be familiar.

The No. 35/CPR grade watch, adjusted to postion, was a very high grade watch in 1890/1891, and heavily promoted by Waltham for railroad service in Period Ads. Casey Jones carried a 15-jewel, pendant-set, No. 35 to his death in 1900. His watch was a little earlier than the one that Larry has, serial number 4,725,871. By the way, you didn't say (or I didn't notice) if Larry's watch is pendant or lever set.

Its not surprising that Larry's watch was up-jeweled for the CPR grade. George Ritchie, the Calgary CPR watch inspector, worked on 17-jewel S/N 5,742,087 back in 1927. Also, S/N 5,742,502 is in our data base as a 17-jewel CPR grade.

Kent

 

[doug sinclair]

Kent,

The Waltham S# list indicates it is a stem set (I stated that in my post), and it IS in fact a stem set. I received my Bulletin the day I sent that post so hadn't read your column. I received an e-mail from Keith (whose last name eludes me) that many of these later grade 35 watches were converted from 15 to 17 jewels at the factory in reaction to the competition of the day, particularly by Dueber-Hampden.

Regards,
Doug S.

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[Kent]

Doug:

I don't know about a lot of the No. 35's being up-jeweled, but Waltham did say that a Limited Number were up-jeweled.

Kent