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Can you identify this clock?

cuilvona

Registered User
Jan 22, 2021
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Hi,
I recently bought this Napoleon Hat clock on ebay as a restoration project. The seller thought that is was a Haller, but I am not convinced as the stamp on the back plate does not look right.

The only mark on the dial states 'Foreign' & I'm guessing that this is a German clock made for the UK market. The mark on the backplate looks a little like a Kienzle one, but does not seem quite right either. But I can't find anything closer.

Any suggestions regarding the maker and/or an approximate manufacture date would be much appreciated. I can post more piccies if that would help.

Thanks,

Arthur
(A newbie to the forum - this is my first post)
P1070639.JPG
 

tracerjack

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Jun 6, 2016
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That is the mark of Kienzle. Several forms of the winged dial were used by Kienzle and can correspond to time periods. The "foreign" mark also has a date associated with it. Those that have that information will surely post soon.
 

new2clocks

NAWCC Member
Apr 25, 2005
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Hi,
I recently bought this Napoleon Hat clock on ebay as a restoration project. The seller thought that is was a Haller, but I am not convinced as the stamp on the back plate does not look right.

The only mark on the dial states 'Foreign' & I'm guessing that this is a German clock made for the UK market. The mark on the backplate looks a little like a Kienzle one, but does not seem quite right either. But I can't find anything closer.

Any suggestions regarding the maker and/or an approximate manufacture date would be much appreciated. I can post more piccies if that would help.

Thanks,

Arthur
(A newbie to the forum - this is my first post)
View attachment 633729
Welcome to the forum.

As Tracerjack mentioned, this is the trademark of Kienzle, a German company, and was registered in 1921.

The use of the term "foreign" was a U.K. requirement for clocks imported into the U.K., effective in 1926. So, your clock was manufactured no earlier than 1926.

Do you have any pictures of the complete clock and a full picture of the back of the movement? Perhaps we can narrow down the date of manufacture.

Regards.
 

cuilvona

Registered User
Jan 22, 2021
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Welcome to the forum.

As Tracerjack mentioned, this is the trademark of Kienzle, a German company, and was registered in 1921.

The use of the term "foreign" was a U.K. requirement for clocks imported into the U.K., effective in 1926. So, your clock was manufactured no earlier than 1926.

Do you have any pictures of the complete clock and a full picture of the back of the movement? Perhaps we can narrow down the date of manufacture.

Regards.
Thanks for that both of you - much appreciated. I hadn't thought of trademarks evolving over the years but when I come to think of it, it isn't a total surprise. I've attached pictures of both the face & the back of the movement & any other info that can be gleaned from those would also be much appreciated. Note that the pendulum is missing (a wee challenge for me) & the gong post is wooden. Whether or not that is original, I have no idea.

Best regards,
Arthur


P1070637.JPG P1070637.JPG P1070683.JPG
 

new2clocks

NAWCC Member
Apr 25, 2005
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Arthur,

Thank you for the additional pictures.

The use of "foreign" on the dial indicates that the clock was cased outside of the U.K., most likely in Germany.

The aforementioned U.K. law did not require "foreign" to be imprinted on the dial if substantial transformation took place in the U.K. Based on observational data, it has been interpreted that casing in the U.K. of a non-U.K. movement, such as yours. met this transformation requirement. Since your clock shows "foreign" on the dial, it was cased outside the U.K., as noted above.

Regards.
 

cuilvona

Registered User
Jan 22, 2021
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Arthur,

Thank you for the additional pictures.

The use of "foreign" on the dial indicates that the clock was cased outside of the U.K., most likely in Germany.

The aforementioned U.K. law did not require "foreign" to be imprinted on the dial if substantial transformation took place in the U.K. Based on observational data, it has been interpreted that casing in the U.K. of a non-U.K. movement, such as yours. met this transformation requirement. Since your clock shows "foreign" on the dial, it was cased outside the U.K., as noted above.

Regards.
Thanks for the added info. I've been doing a bit of googling to see if I can find dates for the variations on the Kienzle trademark .... and so far have found nothing. But at least I now have a better idea of what I'm going to be working on.
Best regards,
Arthur
 

new2clocks

NAWCC Member
Apr 25, 2005
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I've been doing a bit of googling to see if I can find dates for the variations on the Kienzle trademark .... and so far have found nothing.
Many times, trademarks are are used concurrently with older trademarks. Kienzle introduced a trademark in 1923, just two years after your trademark, which is the same as your trademark except that the words "Kienzle" are imprinted above the trademark. But, based on the the evidence provided by your clock, the 1921 trademark was used at the same time as the "newer" trademark. And, there is no need to google. The correct answers to all questions horological are contained in these forums. :)

So, to find the vintage of your clock, we must first look at what we know.

We know your trademark was registered in 1921 and the use of "foreign" moves the "no earlier than" date to 1926.

What we now need to do is look at the cosmetic aspects of your clock, which is more subjective. The dial, to me, looks like the clock was made closer to 1926 than, say, 1930 or beyond.

Perhaps someone has Kienzle documentation (i.e., catalogs) that can identify a particular year of manufacture. Keep in mind, however, that a catalog for a particular year of manufacture proves only that a clock was offered for sale in that year. It most likely was offered for sale a few years before and after.

I feel comfortable in stating your clock was made circa 1926 to 1930.

Regards.
 

cuilvona

Registered User
Jan 22, 2021
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Many times, trademarks are are used concurrently with older trademarks. Kienzle introduced a trademark in 1923, just two years after your trademark, which is the same as your trademark except that the words "Kienzle" are imprinted above the trademark. But, based on the the evidence provided by your clock, the 1921 trademark was used at the same time as the "newer" trademark. And, there is no need to google. The correct answers to all questions horological are contained in these forums. :)

So, to find the vintage of your clock, we must first look at what we know.

We know your trademark was registered in 1921 and the use of "foreign" moves the "no earlier than" date to 1926.

What we now need to do is look at the cosmetic aspects of your clock, which is more subjective. The dial, to me, looks like the clock was made closer to 1926 than, say, 1930 or beyond.

Perhaps someone has Kienzle documentation (i.e., catalogs) that can identify a particular year of manufacture. Keep in mind, however, that a catalog for a particular year of manufacture proves only that a clock was offered for sale in that year. It most likely was offered for sale a few years before and after.

I feel comfortable in stating your clock was made circa 1926 to 1930.

Regards.
You (& the forum) are a mine of information making me feel quite inadequate! Out of interest, does the D R below the logo signify anything in particular?
(Before sending this I thought that perhaps I should check the DR out myself .... &, as you predicted, google directed me to a NAWCC forum post which confirmed my suspicion that it stands for Deutsch Reich - though my guess had been Republik). I can feel myself getting hooked on this!
Regards,
Arthur
 

JTD

Registered User
Sep 27, 2005
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You (& the forum) are a mine of information making me feel quite inadequate! Out of interest, does the D R below the logo signify anything in particular?
(Before sending this I thought that perhaps I should check the DR out myself .... &, as you predicted, google directed me to a NAWCC forum post which confirmed my suspicion that it stands for Deutsch Reich - though my guess had been Republik). I can feel myself getting hooked on this!
Regards,
Arthur

I don't think the letters D and R on your clock are associated with each other. They are different fonts and different sizes; I doubt that they stand for Deutsches Reich.

The only time, in my experience, that the letters DR are used to signify 'Deutsches Reich' are when they are used in association with a patent number, eg. DRP XXXXXX or DR Patent XXXXXX, or DRGM (which is a type of registration, but not a regular patent).

However, in this case I cannot say what the letters do stand for; perhaps a factory code or batch identifier. Others may know more.

JTD
 
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