Can you identify this Anniverary clock

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Nochime, Feb 9, 2012.

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  1. Nochime

    Nochime Registered User

    Dec 10, 2011
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    Large clock just the dome measures 11 inches high and 6 3/4 wide only makers mark is the stamping on back any help would be great.
     

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  2. doug sinclair

    doug sinclair Registered User
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    Aug 27, 2000
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    Welcome,

    The stamping appears to be K & O, or Keininger and Obergfell. Generally, these are identified by matching the sillhouette of the back plate to the sillhouette in the Horolovar guide. I don't know that they can be identified by a specific model number.
     
  3. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    Jun 24, 2011
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    In the guide, it's plate number 1388.
    Mid '30s possibly?
    I think that one came in both brass and chrome (with a brass dial).
     
  4. Nochime

    Nochime Registered User

    Dec 10, 2011
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    All here but block to connect wire to Rotary Pendulum. Wheres best place to find one,thanks for replies.
     
  5. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Sep 7, 2000
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    Nochime, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and thanks for posting your inquiry and the photos of your clock.

    There should be a serial number stamped at the bottom center of the back plate, mostly hidden behind the suspension guard. With the number I can provide the year it was made, if there is no number it was made in 1939.
     
  6. Nochime

    Nochime Registered User

    Dec 10, 2011
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    I took guard off and found no number at all.Why no number for 1939 ?
     
  7. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You can get the lower block from most suppliers. Check out the suppliers link in the clock repair forum.
     
  8. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    I actually don't know the reason why Kundo stopped putting serial numbers on their clocks in 1939; however I have ample documentation to show that this did happen. There are two clocks identical to yours in my records having dated inscriptions one in late 1939 and the other in 1940, these could not have been made later than the inscriptions thus were from 1939 since I have other data proving serial numbering continued through the end of 1938 and likely into early 1939. The documented serial numbers in my Kundo database stop at 73669 which is very late 1938; my judgement is that these didn't go higher than 75000.
     
  9. Nochime

    Nochime Registered User

    Dec 10, 2011
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    I am guessing this is a clock worth fixing up.I do not have a 400 day clock anyway.
     
  10. Tony10Clocks

    Tony10Clocks Registered User
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    Aug 10, 2010
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    Nice art deco clock
     
  11. Nochime

    Nochime Registered User

    Dec 10, 2011
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    Thanks for impuys I have ordered part hope it will run great.
     
  12. Shayne

    Shayne Registered User

    Dec 17, 2008
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    Very nice clock are these hard to find ?
    I have seen one yesterday same condition as the pics just missing the usual suspension and blocks. Will check if it has any serial no .

    Were there any other manufacturers who made octagonal dials ? or the square .... ..... what do I call them (pendulum wieghts) ? :)

    Thanks
    Shayne
     
  13. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Shayne, this particular clock isn't common at all, I've documented only eight out of 237 total Kundos in my database (3.4 %). Schlenker & Posner made a very few clocks with this type dial but not with the rectangular pendulum weights. Kundo was the only maker having that design, pendulum No. 47 in the Repair Guide. There were at least four variants of this pendulum but all are Kundos.

    I'll be interested to hear if the clock you've seen does have a serial number. The first of these in my data has serial number 38829, made right at the end of 1930, most of them were made in the 1936 to 1939 period.
     
  14. Shayne

    Shayne Registered User

    Dec 17, 2008
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    Hi John sorry I did not reply earlier as I was rather busy thanks for your info .

    I will try and go to my aunt's palce to check the clock for any serial the dial is a different design but same shape with square weights. Since I am new I would appreciate it if you could explain what you mean by (documented only eight out of 237 total Kundos in my database (3.4 %)

    Is there any way of guessing how many of these clocks would not have serial nos ?

    I have learnt so much from this forum thanks to all you guys.

    Thanks

    Shayne
     
  15. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Shayne, what I indicated with the above statement is that as of this writing I have a total of 237 Kundos made between 1923 and 1939 in my database, and only eight of those (including yours) have the octagon dial. Of those eight clocks four have no serial number, reinforcing the comment I made that most of these were made late in the pre-war period.

    For all of the clocks in my data, 16 don't have serial numbers or about 6.75% of the total. This is roughly proportional to one year's production over the 16-year period from Kundo's start of 400-Day production in 1923, which supports my thesis that serial numbering was stopped either in late 1938 or very early 1939. Production seems to have been relatively constant across these years, thus using the known serial numbered clocks there could have been about 5,000 clocks made without serial numbers, all from late 1938 to the cessation of production in late 1939 or early 1940.

    The number of clocks having the exact design as your clock that did not have serial numbers is very speculative since these appear to have almost all been made for a trader. My judgement would be no more than 1,000 total of which half or somewhat more would have serial numbers.
     
  16. Shayne

    Shayne Registered User

    Dec 17, 2008
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    Thank you John for your reply its amazing how much one can learn.

    Shayne

    ''How do you know so much about everything?'' was asked of a very wise and intelligent man; and the answer was ''By never being afraid or ashamed to ask questions as to anything of which I was ignorant.

    John Abbott (1821-1893) Canadian lawyer and statesman.
     
  17. Shayne

    Shayne Registered User

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    #17 Shayne, Feb 18, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2012
    Hi John I asked my aunt to check the clock in the mean time for a serial # and she says that there is no serial #just KS on the left hand side of the back plate which would make it a Kern . The dial also has Kern ,I am confused I have to pay her a vist soon .

    If you say only Kundo made these clocks then what have I stumbled across here?

    I do not know much about the history of Kundo and Kern did they have any association ?

    John at first i thought it could be a marriage of two clocks but we have

    1) KS movement no serial
    2) Kern dail octagonal
    3) rectangular/square weights

    What would be the approx production date.

    Thanks
    Shayne
     
  18. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Shayne, please do visit and take some photos so this can be sorted out. Kundo and Kern had no association that I am aware of, however this clock "may" be one of the Schlenker & Posner clocks that were completed and sold by Kern in 1938 and 1939 after they bought out the SuP business. We have already documented several SuP design clocks having Kern logo stamps so this may be another. The pendulum, however, I suspect to be a marriage as I've not seen any square/rectangular weight pendulum used by any company other than Kundo. Photos will tell the story, be sure to get good clear photos of the movement back plate, upper suspension bracket, pendulum, full clock front, dial etc.
     
  19. Shayne

    Shayne Registered User

    Dec 17, 2008
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    Sure I will post pics.

    Shayne
     
  20. Shayne

    Shayne Registered User

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    Hi John I got some pics of the Kern as promised.

    Shayne
     
  21. Shayne

    Shayne Registered User

    Dec 17, 2008
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    Sorry here it is.

    Shayne
     

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  22. any400day

    any400day Registered User
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    Aug 26, 2000
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    Shayne,

    Your clock is a Kern. Pages from an undated Kern & Sohne catalogue shows the pendulum and dial used on some of their clock. Your exact clock is not shown.

    Vic
     

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  23. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Vic, I also was going to post that it was a Kern, thanks for confirming as well as the catalog scans. This type of "squared ball" pendulum I have only seen on Kern clocks, actually it is quite different from the Kundo version that was posted with the clock that started this thread.

    Also, since I made my comment earlier about Kundo being the "only" one to use the particular octagon shaped dial on that same clock, I should have posted that most makers had some kind of octagon dial particularly in the 1920's/30's, but usually having quite a different appearance from the Kundo design. JUF, Kern & Link, Kern, and SuP all had octagon dials of one kind or other.
     
  24. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

    Sep 5, 2000
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    As the pictures in in the Kern & Sohne catalogue posted by Vic were undated we cannot know when the square ball pendulum was first introduced by the company. However we do know for sure clocks with these pendulums were made by the company in the mid 1950s.

    Pictures below show two clocks fitted with such pendulum. Both clocks are infact identical in many ways.
    Each has a wooden base quite similar but not identical to the one shown on the left picture in the catalogue page listed above .
    The name Kern is found on the octogan dial and a Kern & Sohne logo ( KS within a circle) stamped on the back plate on both clocks. The square ball pendulun of both clocks can be locked in position by raising the pendulum cup through turning a screw under the wood base. The upper part of the pendulum is then pushed against the collar above it and immobilizing the pendulum.

    Undernearth the wooden base of each of these two clocks is a ink-stamped date : 24 Jan 1955.
    The date was most probably stamped there by the workers who assembled the clock at the factory.
    Here we probably have the rare instance of knowing not only the year and month but also the day when the clock was made.
    More information on these two clocks can be found in an article published in the March 2001 issue of The Torsion Times.

    Mun C W

    View attachment 122374 View attachment 122375 View attachment 122376 View attachment 122377 View attachment 122378 IMG_3925-2.jpg IMG_3917-2.jpg IMG_3920-2.jpg

    [​IMG]
     
  25. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

    Sep 5, 2000
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    Not sure why a few pictures in the above post did not get through.
    I will try reposting them here again.

    Mun C W IMG_3887-1.jpg IMG_3890-1.jpg IMG_3894-1.jpg IMG_3921-4.jpg IMG_3925-2.jpg
     
  26. Ken M

    Ken M Registered User

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    I had one of these, same base, pillars, pendulum, everything. BUT, the base did not have any locking mechanism, it was just bare except for the ring. I've always wondered if it was original, or if a hobbyist had built the base. Now I know! Thanks! I gave it to a girlfriend at the time. Needless to say, I have not seen the clock (or her) for some time now:^
     
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