Can you ID this Welch clock?

TimelyFool

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Oct 2, 2017
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Hello-

Purchased my first E.N. Welch clock in auction. The label on the back is part missing. Have yet to find a copy of Tran du ly's Welch book at a price I can afford. The clock is in good shape and has a Jacot regulator pendulum. Attached are two photos of the clock.

Thanks for any information you can give me.
Timely

welch clock with jacot pendulum label.jpg welch clock with jacot regulator pendulum 4.jpg welch clock with jacot regulator pendulum 1.jpg
 

Dick C

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Oct 14, 2009
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AIDA, Tran Duy Ly book, pages 361 and 362

Circa 1884, Black Walnut, Height 21 1/2 inches, dial 6 inches 8 Day

The hands and pendulum bob appear to be different on yours.
 

TimelyFool

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Thanks Dick. I should have been able to deduce the name given the incomplete label and some help from the Savage and Polite website. But you made it easy for me. Thanks again. The name, the title character of the Verdi opera is right in keeping with Mr. Welch's passion for opera. Incidentally, when I was young I performed in two productions of Aida as "the king" in an amateur group and later as a spear bearer at Chicago's Lyric Opera.

Google Images shows different hands as you mentioned mine are not original. Will check Timesavers for a suitable replica. Perhaps I can also get the correct pendulum on eBay. Unfortunately the wavy glass panel has two cracks across the middle. I collect wavy glass from old windows thrown out on garbage day. As for the leaf pattern Timesavers sorry to say does not carry a phoenix transfer wide enough for my clock. Perhaps someone here knows of a supplier who does.

I know it is possible to repair a windshield crack with epoxy. Possibly with care and practice on scrap glass I might successfully fill the cracks using Loctite's special glass repair super glue #233841. I assume it has as similar index of refraction as the glass. Just ordered a tube from Amazon. If I am successful I can let others know here on this forum.

Best.
Timely.
 

Steven Thornberry

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Perhaps I can also get the correct pendulum on eBay.
Don't be too hasty. The pendulum on your clock is a Welch pendulum (see Tran's book, p. 525, fig. 1629. Since the clock could have come with one of a variety of different pendulums, this one might well be original.
 

Willie X

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Some of those pendulums, with the rate indicator, have patent information on them. Willie X
 

Uhralt

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Thanks Dick. I should have been able to deduce the name given the incomplete label and some help from the Savage and Polite website. But you made it easy for me. Thanks again. The name, the title character of the Verdi opera is right in keeping with Mr. Welch's passion for opera. Incidentally, when I was young I performed in two productions of Aida as "the king" in an amateur group and later as a spear bearer at Chicago's Lyric Opera.

Google Images shows different hands as you mentioned mine are not original. Will check Timesavers for a suitable replica. Perhaps I can also get the correct pendulum on eBay. Unfortunately the wavy glass panel has two cracks across the middle. I collect wavy glass from old windows thrown out on garbage day. As for the leaf pattern Timesavers sorry to say does not carry a phoenix transfer wide enough for my clock. Perhaps someone here knows of a supplier who does.

I know it is possible to repair a windshield crack with epoxy. Possibly with care and practice on scrap glass I might successfully fill the cracks using Loctite's special glass repair super glue #233841. I assume it has as similar index of refraction as the glass. Just ordered a tube from Amazon. If I am successful I can let others know here on this forum.

Best.
Timely.
Also let us know if your attempt to repair the glass using the super glue is not successful.

Uhralt
 

Jim Hartog

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Hello Timely,

Your pendulum appears on page 525 of Tran's Welch book. It has a Jacot patent on it, nothing Welch, but Welch used it, I guess. Once you figure out how it works, you will see why it was not a good idea. A bottom nut is a lot better than the Jacot snail idea.

Jim
 

TimelyFool

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Oct 2, 2017
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Thanks Jim, Uhralt, Willie, and Steve.

My Jacot pendulum has a patent date of 1877. So were they manufactured by / for Welch exclusively? What connection if any was with Jacot, the watchmaker? And who was E. Horton?

The clock keeps good time. I have been doing a "push-pull" to adjust the bob length. How the pendulum is suppose to work is still a mystery to me.

When I have time I will pull the clock movement for a long dip in the ultrasonic bath and an oiling. Still I have not worked up the nerve to disassemble a movement before "ultrasonicing".

Best Wishes,
Timely

horton-jacot pendulum patent diagram.jpg
 

TimelyFool

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Uhralt, I should have the special super glue next week. Will let you know how I do with my experiments. You may know a better way to fix a cracked pane. mb
 

Steven Thornberry

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Jim. I re-read your response. Did any other clock company use Jacot's pendulum?
A number of companies used a variation of Jacot's pendulum, originally patented in 1877. Here is a link to the Jacot patent: US194915.pdf.

What you show above is Horton's version, which he assigned to the New Haven Clock. Co. Here is a link to the full document: US238392.pdf.

Four weeks after Horton's patent was granted, Florenz Kroeber received a patent for another version of Jacot's pendulum: US239391.pdf

The Canadian Patent Office Record and Mechanics' Magazine of January 1879 mentions Jacot's pendulum on page 22, showing an illustration that looks very like the pendulum on your clock. The Canadian Patent Office Record and Mechanics' Magazine
 
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Jim Hartog

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Hello Timely,

The Jacot pendulum works by using the clock winding key (likely a number six) on the square post in the centre of the FRONT of the pendulum. That rotates the snail shaped thing on the back of the pendulum and that is how the bob is raised or lowered.

I have a Jacot pendulum on a Kroeber kitchen clock, the "Jefferson".

Jim
 

TimelyFool

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Oct 2, 2017
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Thank you Steven for the three patent drawings. By mistake I posted the later Horton diagram of 1882 which is not the pendulum I have. Mine has a patent date of Sept. 4, 1877 stamped on the face,. So it is probably the original Jacot design.

Jim- for some reason I failed to notice the square winding post on the face. Thanks.
 

John P

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I have a clock here that has a similar pendulum with the Pat.D.MCH.1st 1881. There is no square on the front of the thing to adjust it and no snail on the back.
The clock movement is not signed and I have no idea who made it.
P8170104.JPG P8170102.JPG

Perhaps someone might be able to identify it.
 

Steven Thornberry

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I have a clock here that has a similar pendulum with the Pat.D.MCH.1st 1881. There is no square on the front of the thing to adjust it and no snail on the back. The clock movement is not signed and I have no idea who made it.
Horton's patent on the pendulum (see post # 11 above), the glass pattern, and the use of colors in the pattern suggest New Haven, and the clock does appear to be the Drave, shown in Tran's New Haven book from the 1886 catalogue. However, yours appears to be missing some pieces. Here is a link to one on antiqueclockspriceguide.com for comparison: Antique Clock Details.

P.S., the Drave: Drava - Wikipedia.

BTW, would you prefer this inquiry in its own thread?
 
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John P

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Thanks Steven, my clock is indeed the New Haven "Drave" I was more interested in that strange pendulum and how it works.

johnp
 

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