Help Can I use this verge?

Clockinit

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Hello All. I have a few questions.. I received today a ST #9 Regulator..at least that's what the person who sold this clock to this woman, told her...I've googled it to see what I could find, but have yielded nothing as of yet...#18's, #2's..I'll keep looking....Any how, The clock had fallen off the wall. The case has some damage to the upper part, that can be easily repaired. However the verge assy seems to be used and abused. The one pallet face has been 'repaired' as seen by the photos. The owner indicates the clock was running...I guess:???: The pendulum leader coming off the verge arbor was all kinds of bent (not from the fall). It broke off when I attempted to straighten it out and the one pivot on the one end is sheered off. it was bent at a pretty severe angle and as soon as I touched it to see if I could align it..It broke off. So my one question is..TIMESAVERS sells a verge that advertises it to be for the ST #2 AND other clocks...This movement looks very similar to the #2 Movement. Are the verges and or Escape wheels the same? I believe The EW on the one i'm looking at has 40 teeth..Another question I have is, can I drill out the remaining portion of the pendulum leader in the arbor and insert a same gauge piece of steel wire and shape it? How do I insure a good tight fit? would it be better to have someone weld it back on?..Is it easier just to get a verge assy from somewhere? Where would I even find one? Too many questions in one post? Good questions? OR silly ones?
I saw someone had a NOS #18 movement for bid on ebay...starting at $250...I wonder if that's the way to go:???:
As always, any help will be greatly appreciated!!

Bob

verge6.jpg verge5.jpg verge4.jpg verge3.jpg verge2.jpg verge1.jpg vergea.jpg
 

Willie X

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Clock,

I would:

Remove old verge and order a new repo.
Knock out the broken stub.
Repivot the arbor.
Make and fit a new crutch wire.
Refit and adjust the new verge.

The last item will be the most work
(by far) and I'm assuming the repo blank can be made to work in your movement.

Willie X
 

bruce linde

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the 61 movement has a 40 tooth escape wheel and is used in the #2 and the #9... which means the timesavers verge should work for you... probably. you'll still need to polish it, and possibly fine tune it to work with the existing escape wheel. given the crappy verge repair you'll have to make sure no one mucked with the escape wheel teeth.

the movement on ebay (not that we talk about active listings or auctions :)) is a 61A movement... it has a 30-tooth escape wheel and beats seconds... yours beats 80 x a minute.

getting the verge-to-EW relationship right with either movement is always the issue... there can be a very small sweet spot where the movement is reliably happy.

the timesavers verge seems like a better way to go than trying to graft on a better done piece to the existing verge... go for it.
 

bruce linde

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dangit, willie... give me a minute to finish typing my responses! :)
 

Clockinit

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Bruce Willie...I think I WILL go for it...I think I'll get more satisfaction this way...What is the methodology for installing the crutch wire to the arbor, so it's snug and won't move?

Bob
 

shutterbug

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You'll have to file it even with the arbor, and punch out the old piece. You should be able to use the old piece to insert into the hole. Push it through about 1/16" on other side, and mark the long side at the arbor. Remove the wire and use a flat dull chisel punch to flatten the wire at the mark. Then reinsert it, put it into a vise near the arbor and tap the exposed short end with several light glancing blows with a hammer to flatten it and spread it out (peen it). Keep tapping until the wire is snug. Be sure you position it correctly ;)
 

Willie X

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My method is similar to Bugs.

I push the wire through the hole about 1 inch (the wire needs to be a snug fit in the hole) then simply flatten the end SLIGHTLY for no more than 1/4". Tap the slightly flattened end back into the hole until it bites. Don't get carried away, you can split the arbor. Lastly, finish off the proud end of the wire with a file, or just leave it as is. Leaving it proud had a plus side, as you can easily retighten it if it ever loosens.

Willie X
 

Clockinit

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OK Guys, I think I got it...Positioning, I'm sure is key....Which leads me to my next question I just thought of...How should the new verge be positioned/aligned to the crutch? Evenly on both sides??

Bob
 

shutterbug

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Yes. You can bend it slightly either way later for beat.
 

Clockinit

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...OK guys, so I'm just waiting on the new verge to arrive. I've removed the remaining part of the crutch from the arbor, fashioned a new one and have installed it on the arbor. I've also installed a new pivot. However, don't laugh, but I used an 'EZ pivot' cap for the replacement. I've had success once before with these. I don't have a lathe (yet).. A question I would have any how is, seeing that the crutch wire was so close to the end of the arbor, I don't think I'd be able to drill into the end of the arbor to install a pivot the 'correct' way...what is the actual solution for this? Make a new complete arbor? In which case I would need a lathe....I need a lathe!!.....My second question is ...How do I polish the new verge to make it ready to be operational??

Bob
 

shutterbug

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The easiest way is to use a bench clamp to insert the impulse face at the right angle, slightly above but parallel with the face of the clamp. That provides a guide for the emery boards. That impulse face angle is critical and must be right. After polishing it should be hardened and then cleaned up again to a mirror finish. You'll likely need several grades of emery, ending with very fine for the polish.
 

Clockinit

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'Bugsey... The verge from Timesavers says it is machined and ready for final finish and polish. Does that eliminate any of the steps you've indicated?
If not, I will follow your instructions. Hardening ...involves heat? Can I use the flame tip of a soldering gun?
I have #1 and #0 sanding sticks...will these work? AND...Will a fine wire brush on the dremel be good for the 'mirror' finish. I know I can use it on hard steel and it will make it very 'shiney'...How's that for a technical term:???::)
..SIDE BAR... If I wanna ask a couple of other questions about this movement, do I create another post?

Bob
 

kinsler33

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My method is similar to Bugs.

I push the wire through the hole about 1 inch (the wire needs to be a snug fit in the hole) then simply flatten the end SLIGHTLY for no more than 1/4". Tap the slightly flattened end back into the hole until it bites. Don't get carried away, you can split the arbor. Lastly, finish off the proud end of the wire with a file, or just leave it as is. Leaving it proud had a plus side, as you can easily retighten it if it ever loosens.

Willie X
Thanks for that. I think I've been overthinking repairs like this.

M Kinsler
 

Willie X

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You have to fit the verge first. This usually requires several things like: often, narrowing the pallet tips, shaping the impulse faces to the correct angles, getting the right spacing between the pallets, etc. You need to know where you are going before you do anything ...

Polishing is a minor (but very important) step at the end of the process. Polishing is only necessary for the 4 tiny pallet faces.

I wish you hadn't done that pivot cap thing. Not to difficult to make a new arbor though.

Willie X
 

kinsler33

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...OK guys, so I'm just waiting on the new verge to arrive. I've removed the remaining part of the crutch from the arbor, fashioned a new one and have installed it on the arbor. I've also installed a new pivot. However, don't laugh, but I used an 'EZ pivot' cap for the replacement. I've had success once before with these. I don't have a lathe (yet).. A question I would have any how is, seeing that the crutch wire was so close to the end of the arbor, I don't think I'd be able to drill into the end of the arbor to install a pivot the 'correct' way...what is the actual solution for this? Make a new complete arbor? In which case I would need a lathe....I need a lathe!!.....My second question is ...How do I polish the new verge to make it ready to be operational??

Bob
Two thoughts: 1: The verge may be pressed onto the arbor like a locomotive wheel. I needed a hydraulic press to push out the arbor.

2: You don't need a lathe to do repivoting. YouTube has Al Takatsch's re-pivoting video. You can purchase his CD and his centering tool through eBay, and they take the angst out of repivoting.

Note that the hole needed for the new pivot only needs to be around 3 pivot diameters deep.

M Kinsler
 

shutterbug

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If the verge is already hardened and mirror smooth, you can just test it and follow what Willie mentioned. But ask here first so you don't do the wrong thing. Be prepared to show us video's of the EW and verge interactions. Slow motion. Moving with your hands if needed.
 

Clockinit

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I hope to get the new verge tomorrow (maybe today?)..When I do I'll post pictures of it....
I will try to do the right things as I go...
I guess I should've asked before I did that 'pivot'... Just for 'Poops N Giggles I put the original hokey, repaired vege on the arbor and tried it in the clock.
The clock ticked for a while, but with very low amplitude, and then would stall... I gotta believe that's because of the repair that had been done on the verge? I also noticed it stalled even faster when I installed the hands, and particularly faster when I installed the taper pin..Thoughts?
I guess I have to wait until a new, properly prepped verge can be installed. (here's to hoping I can provide that verge:D)
Guys, thanks for all the help, thus far...
Can I make a verge? with new pivots?..

Bob
 

kinsler33

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It sounds as if a tight or bent or otherwise-compromised pivot is blocking power to your escape wheel, or perhaps wheels aren't meshing well because a pivot is worn.

I'd suggest that you learn as much as you can about the dead-beat escapement and then file/grind/polish new surfaces on your old verge. The practice will be useful. Install the old verge and see how well it runs and if it doesn't run, figure out why. When the new verge comes in, polish the pallets: I use Timesavers wooden 'emery buffs' (they're crocus cloth) progressing from 1/0 grit to 6/0 'grit' for a jewelry polish. Thus you'd need six buffs: 1/0 2/0 3/0 4/0 5/0 and 6/0. You may find, as I did, that the factory angles on the Timesavers verge are very close to what you need, and only polishing is required.

After I did all this on a worn ST #2 the clock ran vastly better, but it would still stop unpredictably. I finally traced the problem to an escape wheel pivot that had been bushed a bit too tightly. A quick twist with a cutting broach opened that bushing up a bit, and while the movement rattles even more than before, the clock has run for a few years now.

Mark Kinsler
 

Clockinit

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Mark, great advise and duly noted. I had checked all the pivots and bushings and actually bushed the front plate for the escape wheel..I will double check everything though, EZ enough as there's only, what? 5, 6 wheels.? I am really trying to figure this out with the old verge, before the new one arises. The owner said the clock WAS running before it fell off the wall..I don't know how well.?.?.? Maybe the hokey verge IS THE problem..I'm gonna keep checkin'...
Thanks for the input

Bob
 

Clockinit

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OK, Gents..Here is the new verge from Timesavers fresh out da box!! The pallets appear to be somewhat rough..So i begin by smoothing and polishing the small angled surfaces first? then polishing?..Then how about the larger surfaces of the pallet? the inside? the outside?

Bob

STV2.jpg STV1.jpg
 

Willie X

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Polishing anything now will probably be a waist of time. Mounting the pallet on its arbor would be the first step. Polishing would be the last step as already stated. In between there will likely be many other steps. :) Willie X
 

Clockinit

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If the verge is already hardened and mirror smooth, you can just test it and follow what Willie mentioned. But ask here first so you don't do the wrong thing. Be prepared to show us video's of the EW and verge interactions. Slow motion. Moving with your hands if needed.
'Bugsey, WillIe and Mark...I want to thank you all for making me 'swim' on this one. I researched the 'dead-beat' escapment on line in the MB and some books I have. I learned alot about the spacing between the pallets. the need for high polishing and also the need for maintaining the correct angles for the impulse faces and maintaining the very sharp edges for those pallets...i'm happy to report that the clock is running on my stand and keeping good time. I would like to get a little more amplitude in the pendulum. I believe some power is being robbed at a couple of the pivots. Namely the #1 wheel/cable drum arbor and the #2 wheel... It was a learning lesson, for sure..So again , THANKS..!!

Bob
 

Clockinit

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Polishing anything now will probably be a waist of time. Mounting the pallet on its arbor would be the first step. Polishing would be the last step as already stated. In between there will likely be many other steps. :) Willie X
'Bugsey, WillIe and Mark...I want to thank you all for making me 'swim' on this one. I researched the 'dead-beat' escapment on line in the MB and some books I have. I learned alot about the spacing between the pallets. the need for high polishing and also the need for maintaining the correct angles for the impulse faces and maintaining the very sharp edges for those pallets...i'm happy to report that the clock is running on my stand and keeping good time. I would like to get a little more amplitude in the pendulum. I believe some power is being robbed at a couple of the pivots. Namely the #1 wheel/cable drum arbor and the #2 wheel... It was a learning lesson, for sure..So again , THANKS..!!

Bob
 

Clockinit

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If the verge is already hardened and mirror smooth, you can just test it and follow what Willie mentioned. But ask here first so you don't do the wrong thing. Be prepared to show us video's of the EW and verge interactions. Slow motion. Moving with your hands if needed.
'Bugsey, WillIe and Mark...I want to thank you all for making me 'swim' on this one. I researched the 'dead-beat' escapment on line in the MB and some books I have. I learned alot about the spacing between the pallets. the need for high polishing and also the need for maintaining the correct angles for the impulse faces and maintaining the very sharp edges for those pallets...i'm happy to report that the clock is running on my stand and keeping good time. I would like to get a little more amplitude in the pendulum. I believe some power is being robbed at a couple of the pivots. Namely the #1 wheel/cable drum arbor and the #2 wheel... It was a learning lesson, for sure..So again , THANKS..!!

Bob
 

kinsler33

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Consider bushing the pivots on the escape wheel and on the verge. These don't follow the usual rules of when to bush or not bush, for even the smallest amount of side shake in these pivots will result in lost motion, and that seriously affects pendulum motion. Whenever I can't find any other reason for an underperforming clock I'll usually bush the escapement no matter how good its pivots look.

M Kinsler
 

shutterbug

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Yes. Dead beats are not like recoils though, so don't take low pendulum amplitude as a suggestion that something is wrong. It may very well be that you need to do some bushing work. But dead beats do not require much swing beyond locking and unlocking correctly. Judge them by over swing. If you have that, they will usually be quite happy.
 

Clockinit

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Consider bushing the pivots on the escape wheel and on the verge. These don't follow the usual rules of when to bush or not bush, for even the smallest amount of side shake in these pivots will result in lost motion, and that seriously affects pendulum motion. Whenever I can't find any other reason for an underperforming clock I'll usually bush the escapement no matter how good its pivots look.

M Kinsler
Thanks Mark...I'm gonna look at all the pivots & bushings closely...

Bob
 

Clockinit

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Yes. Dead beats are not like recoils though, so don't take low pendulum amplitude as a suggestion that something is wrong. It may very well be that you need to do some bushing work. But dead beats do not require much swing beyond locking and unlocking correctly. Judge them by over swing. If you have that, they will usually be quite happy.
'Bugsey...that's good to know! I will look closely though, and probably will end up doing some bushing work..
Thanks for getting back to me!! ;)

Bob
 

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