c1750 Isaac Roberts verge with Gold Agate case

[pocket2100]

Posting pictures from one of the watches in my collection that I shared here: European collection

This is the gold/agate cased watch by Isaac Roberts from the mid 18th century. I just recently received this watch in my collection, but was really drawn to the gold agate case. Thought it was a beautiful example of the case craftsmanship of the day and just couldn't pass up adding it to the collection.

Beyond that, I do not know much about this watch yet, but it appears to be a very nice movement from the period, and it seems to run very well.

Thanks,
Adam

 

[Incroyable]

Beautiful watch.

Are there any hallmarks? I wonder if this is 22 carat gold.

 

[aucaj]

Adam,

It is a beautiful agate watch! The inside of the outer case is interesting. It almost looks like the stone is 'glued'
in place? Can you tell me more about how it was put in place?

Thank you,
Chris

 

[pocket2100]

Beautiful watch.

Are there any hallmarks? I wonder if this is 22 carat gold.

Thank you - I'm not sure of the gold purity as I do not see any hallmarks on the case. The outer case I assume is gold as the decorative detail is fairly thin and I do not see any places where it has rubbed through to something else, but who knows.

 

[Incroyable]

Thank you - I'm not sure of the gold purity as I do not see any hallmarks on the case. The outer case I assume is gold as the decorative detail is fairly thin and I do not see any places where it has rubbed through to something else, but who knows.

Hopefully you didn't pay 22 carat gold prices then

 

[pocket2100]

Adam,

It is a beautiful agate watch! The inside of the outer case is interesting. It almost looks like the stone is 'glued'
in place? Can you tell me more about how it was put in place?

Thank you,
Chris

Here's a better picture of the inside cover. It appears that they took the gold components of the case and created little gold tabs that folded over the agate to hold them all in place. Then they placed what appears to be a piece of paper or cloth over it and then put something over that to cover it all up and hold it in place. It almost looks like tar. Maybe someone else who know more about the manufacture of these style of cases will shed a little more light on it with this clearer picture.

 

[pocket2100]

Hopefully you didn't pay 22 carat gold prices then

I did pay quite a bit for it, but I was mostly attracted to the agate and the craftsmanship, not the gold content. To me it was worth it.

 

[John Matthews]

I did pay quite a bit for it, but I was mostly attracted to the agate and the craftsmanship, not the gold content. To me it was worth it.

I applaud your response. In my opinion, as watch collectors we should be guided in our purchasing by the extent to which the overall attributes of an item match our collecting objectives and not be distracted by the content of precious metal.

John

 

[Incroyable]

I applaud your response. In my opinion, as watch collectors we should be guided in our purchasing by the extent to which the overall attributes of an item match our collecting objectives and not be distracted by the content of precious metal.

John

On the other hand, market prices are largely dictated by precious metal content for better or for worse.

I find this is especially true if one is buying at auction.

 

[John Matthews]

On the other hand, market prices are largely dictated by precious metal content for better or for worse.

I find this is especially true if one is buying at auction.

And why is that?

Are real watch collectors driving the price or ‘investors’ who are driven by different motives?

John

 

[Incroyable]

And why is that?

Are real watch collectors driving the price or ‘investors’ who are driven by different motives?

John

My impression is that there is a baseline price for the gold content plus any premium for the quality of the movement or complication and then another premium for the name.

 

[John Matthews]

My impression is that there is a baseline price for the gold content plus any premium for the quality of the movement or complication and then another premium for the name.

The way I assess potential purchases is different and that controls what I am prepared to pay. I start with will this fill a gap in my collection of English watches or does it have an interesting story. Then it‘s the quality of the movement and because of the scarcity good restorers and their lead times, what is needed to restore. Then what am I prepared to pay. That’s it. Generally, I am not prepared to pay the price that a ‘gold premium’ adds. So most of the watches I go for are not in gold cases.

John

 

[gmorse]

Hi Adam,

I wonder if this is 22 carat gold.

If it is solid gold, as it appears to be, then at this date it would be 22 carat, because 18 carat didn't become legal again until 1798.

The inside of the case looks as though the agate panels were held in by pitch as well as the gold tabs. Alternatively, the pitch could have been added after the accident which cracked the side panels in an attempt to stabilise them; such a shame, but a material as brittle as banded agate was a highly attractive but risky choice for a watch case.

Hallmarks on elaborate cases such as this are seldom found, simply because there isn't a suitable surface to place them. The gold mounts were probably made by a champlevé technique, beating out the design from the inside rather than as a solid casting; it used less gold for the same effect!

The hands are probably contemporary but I think they're replacements because they don't quite fit the dial, which is almost pristine with just a faint hairline, and matches the 1750s date.

A fine example of a watch with an 'exotic' case.

Regards,

Graham

 

[pocket2100]

... Generally, I am not prepared to pay the price that a ‘gold premium’ adds. So most of the watches I go for are not in gold cases.

John

I also primarily go by this approach. I have very few gold watches because of this, and I have some very interesting (interesting to me) silver and other non-gold watches.

One other aspect I do not put much value in is the English watches vs the Dutch "fakes". I have some very nice "fakes" that I find very interesting and am proud to have in my collection.

 

[John Matthews]

Graham - it appears to me that the gold has been attached to the agate by the tabs and then the pitch was applied to stabilise the fixing. It seems more likely that the pitch was original.

John

 

[pocket2100]

Hi Adam,


If it is solid gold, as it appears to be, then at this date it would be 22 carat, because 18 carat didn't become legal again until 1798.

The inside of the case looks as though the agate panels were held in by pitch as well as the gold tabs. Alternatively, the pitch could have been added after the accident which cracked the side panels in an attempt to stabilise them; such a shame, but a material as brittle as banded agate was a highly attractive but risky choice for a watch case.

Hallmarks on elaborate cases such as this are seldom found, simply because there isn't a suitable surface to place them. The gold mounts were probably made by a champlevé technique, beating out the design from the inside rather than as a solid casting; it used less gold for the same effect!

The hands are probably contemporary but I think they're replacements because they don't quite fit the dial, which is almost pristine with just a faint hairline, and matches the 1750s date.

A fine example of a watch with an 'exotic' case.

Regards,

Graham

Thank you Graham.

I completely agree about your champlevé technique - looking closely at it, it would appear to be correct.

I am also very sad that the agate has cracked over the years, but what is even more sad is the fact that there was a matching chatelaine with matching agate that went with this watch that unfortunately was not sold with it. It was sold separately to a chatelaine collector. The dealer I purchased this from was very kind and reached out to the person who purchased the chatelaine to ask if they would consider selling it to me in order to restore the them again, but the other collector did not wish to sell. I still hold out hope that they will one day reach out to me on this.

The hallmarks on the inner case may have been worn away. There is some wear on the sliding cover for the key hole where the little nub that would typically catch your fingernail - this has worn almost completely away where it is difficult to move the cover now. I believe that cover must be pure gold at least in order to wear like that.

 

[John Matthews]

I also primarily go by this approach. I have very few gold watches because of this, and I have some very interesting (interesting to me) silver and other non-gold watches.

One other aspect I do not put much value in is the English watches vs the Dutch "fakes". I have some very nice "fakes" that I find very interesting and am proud to have in my collection.

What’s the saying - imitation is the highest form of flattery - as to whether they are ‘Dutch’ is a different story.

John

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

It seems more likely that the pitch was original.

I think both are equally likely.

I'd be very surprised if this case isn't solid 22 carat.

Regards,

Graham

 

[pocket2100]

Graham - it appears to me that the gold has been attached to the agate by the tabs and then the pitch was applied to stabilise the fixing. It seems more likely that the pitch was original.

John

I'm guessing it was original as well to avoid the parts from rattling.

 

[John Matthews]

Graham - surely the outer back is predominantly agate and the gold is a skeleton supporting the agate.

John

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

...surely the outer back is predominantly agate and the gold is a skeleton supporting the agate.

Yes, I think it is, the back and side panels are separate pieces of agate, held in by tabs, but whether that would have been sufficiently stable without any additional adhesive such as pitch is debatable. Perhaps pitch seems an unlikely substance to use, but engravers and gold chasers used it frequently in their work so it would have been readily to hand.

Regards,

Graham

 

[aucaj]

I am also very sad that the agate has cracked over the years, but what is even more sad is the fact that there was a matching chatelaine with matching agate that went with this watch that unfortunately was not sold with it. It was sold separately to a chatelaine collector.

I have seen this done by resellers a number of times. It is very frustrating. Those pieces stayed together for a couple hundreds years and somebody separates them under the assumption it will net them more money.

 

[Incroyable]

I have seen this done by resellers a number of times. It is very frustrating. Those pieces stayed together for a couple hundreds years and somebody separates them under the assumption it will net them more money.

You also see this with original boxes and old invoices particularly for brands like Patek.

 

[John Matthews]

the back and side panels are separate pieces of agate

Graham - are you sure? I think it was probably formed from a single piece of agate (chalcedony = cryptocrystalline quartz) that was shaped and then encased by the gold skeletal case back.

John

 

[Incroyable]

A lot of old silver used pitch to attach various components particularly knife blades to handles.

 

[Incroyable]

A London dealer once told me that whenever he sells pocket chronometers the price for gold and silver are pretty much the same.

 

[John Matthews]

I think these rubbed hallmarks have the cartouche shape corresponding to London 1740-1755 and most likely 1744-1746 ...

John

 

[pocket2100]

I think these rubbed hallmarks have the cartouche shape corresponding to London 1740-1755 and most likely 1744-1746 ...

View attachment 754759 View attachment 754760

John

Very good eye. I can take a better picture of that...

 

[pocket2100]

I think these rubbed hallmarks have the cartouche shape corresponding to London 1740-1755 and most likely 1744-1746 ...

View attachment 754759 View attachment 754760

John

Here are some better views of those apparent rubbed hallmarks. Hopefully someone can make out what they are, I don't think I'm going to be able to. It appears to be 3 hallmarks around a 4th stamp of what appears to be a makers mark.

 

[John Matthews]

You have a very rubbed complete set of hallmarks with the maker's mark at the centre.

The crowned Leopard's Head (London Town mark) I believe is the one at the bottom left (used 1740 to 1755) - below comparison with that on a 1752/53 case.

I suspect the top mark is the fineness mark - Lion Passant, same as for silver until 1798. That would leave the mark on the right as the unidentifiable date letter.

John

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

I think it was probably formed from a single piece of agate

I infer from the position of the tabs in this image that the agate is in separate pieces. If it were a single piece, I don't think the tabs would be anywhere near as large, and indeed would be more likely to be rivets or pins than these large flat tabs. The way the side cracks don't extend into the back also suggests that they're separate.

London 1740-1755 and most likely 1744-1746 ...

I think these dates tie in very well with the stylistic clues from the whole watch, especially the dial.

Regards,

Graham

 

[gmorse]

Hi Adam,

According to Loomes, Isaac Roberts died in 1774.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

I get the feeling that this watch has been restored by a very capable person. I have seven watches from the same period, and all were restored. When I received them, each one needed some kind of TLC. I think one of our members has not seen this yet, I do hope he notices the thread soon.

If the hallmarks are for silver, then the watch is guided, though the outer fixtures could well be 22K. I think you have a wonderful watch there, and no matter what something, to please all that have seen it, The only other watch I have seen like yours is in the BM. A note to Oliver Cooke there could give some information that could help. Thank you for your photographs too, they inspire me.

Allan.

 

[Bernhard J.]

I had considered buying this watch also. If it had a Turkish dial, I would have for sure. Because I am presently restoring an Isaac Rogers lantern clock für die Turkish market.

Congratulations to this lovely watch!

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[anguilla1980]

Good lord, that is a strikingly beautiful case! Congratulations on the acquisition Adam.

Considering the colour choices available for the agate, they did very well choosing the grey juxtaposed with the gold.

Very sad to hear that the original chatelaine was separated from the piece by the seller. That's a real shame. If the chatelaine collector won't let it go over the next few years, perhaps they will share detailed enough images of it so that you may commission a re-creation. Were you able to get images from the dealer of it?

 

[pocket2100]

Good lord, that is a strikingly beautiful case! Congratulations on the acquisition Adam.

Considering the colour choices available for the agate, they did very well choosing the grey juxtaposed with the gold.

Very sad to hear that the original chatelaine was separated from the piece by the seller. That's a real shame. If the chatelaine collector won't let it go over the next few years, perhaps they will share detailed enough images of it so that you may commission a re-creation. Were you able to get images from the dealer of it?

Thank you!

Yes, I do have pictures of it, but I doubt I would ever recreate it. I would either want the original or none at all. I'm still holding out hope that the person who purchased the chatelaine will be willing to part with it in the future.

 

[anguilla1980]

Could you share a picture of it? I'd love to see it!

 

[pocket2100]

Could you share a picture of it? I'd love to see it!

 

[anguilla1980]

WOW! Thank you

 

[Incroyable]

Was this originally a lady's watch given the chatelaine?