C.J & A. Perrenoud Foudroyante Seconde Mort, or Is It Really a Louis Audemars?

[Ethan Lipsig]

I just acquired a very pretty 18k foudroyante seconde mort hunter, signed on the cuvette C.J. & A Perrenoud & Cie., Le Locle, No. 34,783. The movement itself isn't signed nor does it have an easily visible serial number. I bought this watch because I believe it was made by Louis Audemars. I haven't found a photo of an identical Audemars movement, but Zantke shows many dials that look essentially identical. For that reason, because the movement has two tandem-wound mainsprings with internal ratchets, Louis Audemars-like bridges, and appears to have a shepherd's crook counterpoise, I attribute the watch to Louis Audemars. On the other hand, I have a signed Louis Audemars foudroyante seconde mort that differs from the Perrenoud in (a) not having a subseconds dial, (b) have a gilt movement, rather than a nickel one, (c) having a helical hairspring, rather than a flat or Breguet one, (d) needing to be wound in one direction for one mainspring and the other direction for the other mainspring, rather than in one way for both, and (e) being pin-set, instead of lever-set.

Here are photos of the Perrenoud.




Here are photos of my signed Louis Audemars foudroyante/seconde mort.



I would appreciate your views as to this watch, C.J. & A Perrenoud, and my attribution of it to Louis Audemars.

 

[John Pavlik]

Ethan, both very nice and interesting watches... in my limited experience with L S Audemars watches , your Perrenaud has a very un typical Audemars hairspring stud .. The 2nd Watch does have the typical attachment ... The case number is quite high for LS also, as his examples generally stop in the 16,000 range with a small grouping in the 21-22,000 range ... Attached are 2 signed Audemars examples with attachment style..

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Thanks, John. Your skepticism as to whether the Perrenoud was made by Louis Audemars may be justified, but the two issues you raised do not seem dispositive. By a typical Audemars "hairspring stud," I understand you to mean that the little crescent-shaped bit next to the balance staff jewel, with 2-3 screws. The Perrenoud's hairspring stud, in contrast, has a longer flange and only one screw. I checked Zantke to see whether all Audemars have the "typical" Audemars stud. The watches on pages 205, 209, 214, 217, 222, and 281, have longer one-screw flanges, similar to the Perrenoud's flange. There likely are other examples after page 281, but I didn't look beyond that page. As for the serial number, it is a Perrenoud number and not necessarily the serial number of the movement-maker, if it even assigned a number to the movement.

 

[John Pavlik]

Ethan, you may well be correct ... most of the single screw hairspring stud Audemars were quite early ... 1840’s - 1850’s ... There maybe some clue under dial that could help... I’ve found attributating High grade Swiss Watchs to individual makers quite frustrating... Some features match identically, with other features on the same ebauche quite different..

 

[Audemars]

34783 isn't in my archive and would be the Perrenoud number ( - although, John, there is a lot of 5-digit numbers higher even than that, let alone higher than 16000).

I am told those "internal" clicks in the winding train are usually a marker for Louis Audemars, as is a fixing pin on the central pinion, which isn't clear from the photographs - at least not to my 79-year-old eyesight.
Ethan, if ever you get a look at the under-dial side of the movement, it will be interesting to know of any numbers/punch marks there.

- what a pretty watch!

Paul

PS à propos of not-a-lot, there was a M. Perrenoud who used to come to our house when I was growing up. I think he was quite an important customer of my father's.

 

[Keith R...]

I Love them all. I've often wondered this:

Did the watch owners of old, own a daily watch and a dress watch for Sundays?

Thanks for sharing.

Keith R...

 

[Dr. Jon]

I believe it's by Luis Audemars or possible Louis Elisse Piguet who was a close associate. It is a very unusual dead seconds watch due to its small size, which may explain teh single screw in the balance spring stud

A minor quibble, I think it is a seconds morte not a foudrayante, which has a jumping 1/4 or 1/5 seconds subsidiary seconds hand. The seconds morte is bit harder to do than the fouroyante. Check the lever to see wherther it has the signature shepard's crook counterpoise.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Dr. Jon, thank you for correcting my foudroyante error. I paid too much attention to posting 9 in the thread about my other Audemars seconde morte, Louis Audemars Chronograph, identifying that watch as a foudroyante. I should have paid more attention to your posting in that thread, #14, in which you explained that the watch was a seconde morte (i.e., one in which the second hand jumps in full second increments) and not a foudroyante (i.e., one in which the second hand moves in discernible partial second increment), such as my L. Huguenin two train rattrapante, unless I am again being errant.



I will take issue with you on one point, however. You said that my Perrenoud "is a very unusual dead seconds watch due to its small size." The cased Perrenoud is 50mm in diameter, not small. My signed Louis Audemars seconde morte is about the same size, 51mm in diameter, cased.

The Perrenoud appears to have a shepherd's crook counterpoise.

 

[Dr. Jon]

I had thought the watch was smaller. Also, the combination of a running subsidiary seconds with a seconds morte is unusual, which might explain the unusual movement layout.