Bushing used movements, conclusion!

[NEW65]

I've come to the conclusion that the majority of used movements over 20 yrs of age, serviced or unserviceable, need just about every pivot hole rebushing! This takes a load of time to do but in my opinion still cheaper than buying a new replacement movement.
Are there any of you repairmen out there that actually bush all the pivot holes ??( Minus the flys? )
Apart from the time trains, I would presume that the most important gears to focus on are the ones in the lower parts of the trains? (Minus fly and perhaps warning wheels?).
Thanks

 

[bruce linde]

I've come to the conclusion that the majority of used movements over 20 yrs of age...

and under 70 or 80 years old, yes?

my (somewhat limited) experience is that if they're over 100 yrs old someone has probably already bushed the one or two holes that needed attention, or they're waiting for me to give them some bushing love... but certainly not most.

 

[Willie X]

Some do bush all the holes, that's what I've heard anyway. I don't think I've ever actually seen a clock with all the holes bushed.

Note, I think you might as well do the fly holes while you're at it.

Willie

 

[NEW65]

Thanks Bruce and Willie. I find the worst thing is to regret not doing a worn pivot hole and then having to possibly split the plates again later!
I have seen sloppy fly pivots many times in the hermle movements but I decided to discontinue bushing fly pivot holes years ago.

Last question.... how many of you use cutting broaches instead of files to address worn pivot holes?

 

[wow]

I don’t use either if I can do it without it. I use reamers and bushings that pop in the holes and the bushing ID’s fit the pivots

 

[NEW65]

Do you use a bushing machine wow?

 

[wow]

Do you use a bushing machine wow?

Yes.

 

[disciple_dan]

For modern movements, after 1970, plated pivots are my biggest concern. If it's more than 20 years old and many or all of the bearings need bushings then the pivots are most likely compromised. I believe that when the plating has been compromised there is no hope for repair. I have stopped repairing these movements and recommend replacement.
Danny

 

[John P]

We use D shaped KMW reamers to open worn bushing holes. They cut smooth round holes and if needed you can walk them over.

Don't remember ever needing to bush every hole in a clock movement. Just the loose or worn ones.

 

[shutterbug]

I have only bushed every hole in a clock once. It was in extremely bad condition. The number of times that is necessary is very very small.

 

[NEW65]

John, do you use a bushing machine too? And shutterbug?
I recall Mark B using a bench drill to ream the holes.
Thanks

 

[NEW65]

Dan. I can see your reasoning but I always overhaul the used movements and just do my best to clean up the pivots ... if a particular pivot/s are in a really bad state I just fit a replacement part.
I rebuild all the used hermle movements and they work like new when I've done them. It takes a while but I feel its well worth my time and effort.
Replacing a few bushings a few years later on(should that ever arise, never needed to yet and some of my reconditioned movements have been out there for well over 5 years), is no big deal so I don't see a problem really.

 

[Willie X]

5 years out, better get ready!

The repair (or replace) issue is made a little different now with the movement prices at an all time high.

Willie X

 

[NEW65]

I allow a 1 year guarantee on all used movements that I've overhauled. I've had a few clock friends say that I'm being too generous at that. However if I only offered 3 months guarantee I reckon it would lose sales.
I've never really been sure what to think when including guarantees on used movements!
Am I being too generous?

 

[Willie X]

I would say definitely not. Customers will always be leary ... a one year warranty is going to 'seal the deal' for many. Willie

 

[comet61]

For me, clocks (American movements) I have done average about 8 bushings per clock. These are clocks made between 1885-1925. I just got done restoring and overhauling an Ingraham Wizard that needed 12 bushings, not to mention re-pivoting 3 bad pivots. In my opinion, it's a crap shoot.

 

[Peter John]

I give a 3 yr warranty. American clocks usually get 14-16 bergeon bronze bushings. Mine stay out 15-20 yrs. I have been in business 58 yrs with 3rd generation customers. Peter

 

[shutterbug]

I offer 1 year, but will go beyond that if a customer is needing it. I don't like to put my generosity in writing
I think recalls are negatives for a business, and try really hard to insure I never see a clock twice. It has happened a couple of times though.
Yes New, I use a bushing machine.

 

[JeffG]

I recently had to bush nearly every hole in an old Ingraham movement. I skipped the fly pivots because they weren't awful, but now I wish I had done them, too. I guess the fly is a little off balance and it makes a lot of noise when striking.
-Jeff

 

[John P]

new65, we use a Sherline mill set up to bush plates. I like the X-Y feature to center up and I can quickly switch to bush pulleys, spring barrels/caps etc.
however, bushing by hand is a needed skill because you can't get to some of the worn holes no matter what you use.
My advise is to get good at hand bushing first no matter how long it takes, Update your equipment later. I had a bushing machine but sold it because it could not be trusted. Perhaps the problem was me as I am heading toward 76 years old.

johnp

 

[NEW65]

Jeff, I know how that feels when you finish up not bushing a gear and regret it later. I've done it a few times. Sometimes I actually miss seeing a sloppy pivot which is annoying when I've reassembled and set the movement up working again. I know it doesn't take long to split the plates again but I'd rather not if I can help it! However If I don't deal with it and take steps to put things right, it will be on my mind until I eventually finish up doing it! The joys of clock repair !

 

[NEW65]

John, thanks. 58 yrs is a very long time, you must know the job inside out.
I think I know what you mean about the bushing machine. Are you saying the issue of not being reliable is probably down to general wear in the machine? Or movement of the work piece perhaps?
I know the Mill eliminates that. But is it true that it takes longer to bush using a Mill?
I bush by hand and don't seem to have a problem with that.
Thanks John.

 

[R. Croswell]

I guess this one is a bit unusual, 29 bushings installed. That's one of the infamous steel-plate Ingrahams. Those steel pivot holes did quite a number on all the pivots. Was able to turn down many of the pivots and replaced others. Even the control levers had messed up pivots. No way I was putting cleaned up pivots back in steel pivot holes. I typically replace 12 to 16 bushings in a typical American time and strike. I apply the same standard to fly pivot holes as I do all the others. One consideration not often mentioned is that it is a lot easier to assemble a movement if there are not a lot of arbors tilting way over, with one exception. I like to fit the stop wheel bushings a bit loose so that wheel can be slipped out more easily to time the stop pin without bending the pivot.

The debate over various hand bushing methods vs machine bushing methods has been pretty much debated out. The important thing being that the bushing be centered over the original hole and not fall out. However you do bushings, ask yourself, can I prove that my bushing is accurately centered? The fact that typical American mental clocks may run after the bushing job proves nothing and can give a false sense of accomplishment. One can screw up a bushing job regardless of the method and tools used.

RC

 

[tom427cid]

I have only bushed every hole in a clock once. It was in extremely bad condition. The number of times that is necessary is very very small.

The most I have ever done is 26, generally 8-12 will do the trick for one that has been in service for a while, 3-4 decades, bottom line why make extra work if it's not needed? While on the subject of bushing, I most always swedge the bush and then broach to fit, I don't like a bush to spin when I broach! tom

 

[NEW65]

Cheers Tom.
Like you , when I fit a new bush , there's no way it would ever fall out!