• The NAWCC Museum and Library & Research Center are currently open. Please check the Visiting Schedule for Days and Hours at the bottom of the Visit Page.

Bushing Tool Machine for hobbyist

legosnell

Registered User
Nov 5, 2020
168
6
18
68
Country
I need to get one of the basic must have tools even for the hobbyist like myself. A bushing tool and accessories. I've got the book "Clock Repair Basics" by Steven G. Conover and starting to go thru it and he talks about KWM, BERGEON and KEYSTONE. Not sure what a beginner would need to start out with. I'm trying to accumulate the necessary tools a little bit at a time since they are quite expensive. Can one of the clock guru's here suggest a basic bushing tool that would be right for a beginner hobbyist, just to maintain his own collection of mainly inexpensive mantel clocks? Even a used tool would be great.
I'll be tearing down for the first time one of the clocks in my collection for cleaning and repair, probably not a good one for a beginner to start out with because it's a three train movement with westminster chime, Junghans W64 movement (1952 year) Two bushing are worn out with pretty bad side to side play. This is on the chiming side first gear that meshes with the left side mainspring looking at the backside of the movement-pendulum side. One bushing on each plate worn out. All other bushings look pretty good.

When I think about it, In a way, it really doesn't make much sense for a hobbyist to spend $1000 + on a bushing tool so he can maintain a small collection of inexpensive mantel clocks with most of them only costing $50 or less. And additional tools probably required. Clock repair is an expensive endeavor to get into unless you can buy used tools dirt cheap.

Any ideas for a beginner hobbyist type bushing tool?
Appreciate the education and advice
Larry E Gosnell
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: tracerjack

Dick Feldman

Registered User
Sep 1, 2000
2,382
151
63
Colorado, usa
Country
Region
Hello Larry,
A sufficient amount of accuracy can be obtained by installing bushings using common hand tools. In my estimation, much bad advice is given about installing bushings. Many of the tools suggested for that process can easily introduce error and do that consistently.
For instance, a normal drill press will have excessive run out in the spindle. Why bother?
Check out this link: https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Bushing-Using-Hand-Tools
I have used USA made bushings in KWM sizes for 30+ years with satisfactory results.
I do not believe that high price designates quality or will assure greater success.
If one is whore to tools, the above will be argued.
JMHO
Dick
 
  • Like
Reactions: legosnell

legosnell

Registered User
Nov 5, 2020
168
6
18
68
Country
Hello Larry,
A sufficient amount of accuracy can be obtained by installing bushings using common hand tools. In my estimation, much bad advice is given about installing bushings. Many of the tools suggested for that process can easily introduce error and do that consistently.
For instance, a normal drill press will have excessive run out in the spindle. Why bother?
Check out this link: https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Bushing-Using-Hand-Tools
I have used USA made bushings in KWM sizes for 30+ years with satisfactory results.
I do not believe that high price designates quality or will assure greater success.
If one is whore to tools, the above will be argued.
JMHO
Dick
Thank you Dick, this makes so much more sense for the hobbyist. Hand tools for bushing repair rather than expensive bushing tool machinery.
 
Last edited:

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
45,489
1,620
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
If I were starting out again, I would consider a mill over a bushing machine. Not that much more expense, and lots more useful. Bushing by hand is slow and tedious, and a real workout for old hands. You'll get satisfactory results on big holes, but they get harder as the size decreases.
 

John P

NAWCC Member
Sep 17, 2010
1,061
82
48
73
North Carolina
Country
Region
Learn to bush a clock plate by hand. No matter what bushing machine you purchase will work on all the difficult to reach worn holes in a clock plate. You will have to fall back on hand bushing when this happens.

Get a set of broaches, both cutters and smoothers and an assortment set of KMW 1.4 and 1.9 high bushings. The cost wont break the bank. Messing up is part of the learning

You should get some experience on an old junk clock plate first. We all started out this way.

Pay shipping and ill send you some junk.

good luck
johnp
 

Colin Drake

Registered User
Feb 9, 2015
185
5
18
26
Tacoma, Wa
Country
Region
http://instagr.am/p/B97hftCHrpt/
This what I did when the boss took the bushing machine so he could work from home during the first covid lockdown. The drill press, I think is about $100, but it had an incredibly accurate chuck. No wobble at all.

I made a new spring and an adaptor for the hand wheel.
Thread Cutting Attachment Handwheel – Sherline Products

It wasn't the best, but it worked. I know that a lot of people are partial to bushing by hand, and I understand that, but it can be hard to get used to, and a lot can go wrong with it as well, as it can be very easy to ream the hole at the wrong angle. I think it all comes down to personal preference.
 
  • Like
Reactions: legosnell

Vernon

NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Dec 9, 2006
938
119
43
Country
Region
Hi Larry,
KWM. and Bergeon are each a proprietary bushing system. Keystone is a brand that uses the KWM. system. I am a hobbyist too. I started out with a few clocks that I purchased from antique stores, then joined the NAWCC. a few years later. I couldn't afford to pay for repairs so I assembled a few tools and started doing my own repairs. Over time, I've changed tooling a few times and now have a Sherline lathe and mill for all of my work. So, if your hobby is repair, beware because it is a lot of fun!
 
  • Like
Reactions: legosnell

Lynsey

Registered User
Nov 7, 2019
408
109
43
South County, Rhode Island
Country
Region
Hi Larry and Welcome to The World of Bushing. I am still doing them by hand and I enjoy it immensely. I thought about machinery but decided against it. If you learn to do it by hand, you will always have the skill. If you start with machinery, you may never obtain the skill. I think we repair clocks because we love to collect tools. Either way you go, have major fun and ask questions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: legosnell

legosnell

Registered User
Nov 5, 2020
168
6
18
68
Country
Youtuber Chris Clock Repair suggested I start with Bergeon Cutters 1.97mm, 2.47mm, 2.97mm, 3.47mm. Is the term cutter and reamer the same thing, same tool?? Bergeon Reamer adapter for drill press (Timesavers), Small set of 5 sided Broaches 5 pack from size 0.77mm to 2.27mm or similar range, individual Bushing sizes for each of the cutters in 10 to 25 packs, one set for each cutter. Bushing OD = 2x pivot OD. Also need a set of Smoothers and probably a small set of wire Drill bits. The basic barebone tools to start with. Sound about right? I can come up with my own pusher for drill press and I may remove belt from drill press and just rotate it slowly by hand.
 
Last edited:

Jerry Kieffer

NAWCC Member
May 31, 2005
2,880
515
113
wisconsin
Country
I need to get one of the basic must have tools even for the hobbyist like myself. A bushing tool and accessories. I've got the book "Clock Repair Basics" by Steven G. Conover and starting to go thru it and he talks about KWM, BERGEON and KEYSTONE. Not sure what a beginner would need to start out with. I'm trying to accumulate the necessary tools a little bit at a time since they are quite expensive. Can one of the clock guru's here suggest a basic bushing tool that would be right for a beginner hobbyist, just to maintain his own collection of mainly inexpensive mantel clocks? Even a used tool would be great.
I'll be tearing down for the first time one of the clocks in my collection for cleaning and repair, probably not a good one for a beginner to start out with because it's a three train movement with westminster chime, Junghans W64 movement (1952 year) Two bushing are worn out with pretty bad side to side play. This is on the chiming side first gear that meshes with the left side mainspring looking at the backside of the movement-pendulum side. One bushing on each plate worn out. All other bushings look pretty good.

When I think about it, In a way, it really doesn't make much sense for a hobbyist to spend $1000 + on a bushing tool so he can maintain a small collection of inexpensive mantel clocks with most of them only costing $50 or less. And additional tools probably required. Clock repair is an expensive endeavor to get into unless you can buy used tools dirt cheap.

Any ideas for a beginner hobbyist type bushing tool?
Appreciate the education and advice
Larry E Gosnell
Larry
Under no circumstances would I suggest anyone do anything they are not happy with or wish to do such as Linsey`s post #9.

However there are always two sides to a story that should be considered.

Back 300 years ago during the cottage industry, the average individual was lucky to truly master one or two handwork procedures in a life time.
It was a truly rare person who was able to master construction of a complete movement by themselves. Around the mid 1800s, machine tools were developed to construct interchangeable parts in production. Shortly after, machine tools became available and the average person was now capable of developing the skill to machine complete movements in a short period of time.

In todays world, small machine tools are very reasonable in price when compared to capabilities.

Inexpensive hand bushing procedures as commonly suggested, is a trial and error method with unassured results depending on long term skill development. Bushing machines provide less drama, but have no purpose other than bushing.

On the other hand, a Small milling machine (as mentioned by Shutterbug) can bush to a highly accurate pre determined location duplicating original conditions as well as correct ones own errors and those of others. This is unlike other commonly suggested methods since the Mill only requires a fraction of the skill and is made responsible for the accuracy.

However the Mill has the ability to enrich the rest of your life in that it can be used in the repair of everything from autos to a sink faucet.

One quick example.
A neighbors home furnace had a deteriorated pig metal fitting in the induction fan assembly and could only be purchased by purchasing the whole assembly for $550.00. since the dealer would not sell the assembly without installation for liability reasons, the total cost would have been over $700.00

One and a half hours later the simple basic fitting had been machined and has function flawlessly for years.

Again in todays world, a small Mill capable and equipped for bushing and other work will run about $850.00.

I can suggest a $10.00 accurate method of bushing for occasional bushing if you wish, but would I be doing you a favor.

Jerry Kieffer
 
Last edited:

Jim DuBois

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jun 14, 2008
3,217
822
113
Magnolia, TX
Country
Region
There are literally hundreds of related discussions around how to rebush movements. I have no idea why I feel compelled to add my comments but it seems to me that many discussions overlook the obvious. And that obvious point IMO is this is not rocket science. Opinions don't count, including mine.

I have rebushed successfully using the hand held approach. I have used a needle file to equal out the worn hole (bad idea) . I have used a twist drill.(bad idea) I have used D bits. I have used a reamer, I have used a milling cutter (bad idea). I have used boring tools on larger bushings. I have used bits I made myself following the Jerry Kieffer approach, that being grinding an angle across a properly sized piece of round tool steel. I have used a high accuracy drill press, I have used a sloppy drill press, I have used a small mill, I have used a large mill. I have used bushing machines made by at least 3 companies.

On the whole, I got it right no matter how I did it. I confess I got sloppy on a couple of them and had to redo the bushing by depthing the wheel/pinion and moving to a slightly larger busing to correct the depthing. But I learned from those. This is a process you almost have to work at to get it wrong, if you think through your process before making chips.

And I have rebushed everything from miniature carriage clock movements to tower clocks. Today, I don't try to equal out the worn hole with anything. I make absolutely certain I have the conventional bushing cutters, those supplied by the various bushing companies, properly centered over the worn hole. I then either use my sloppy drill press or small mill, they both go round. That is about all that is necessary...going around that is. The run out on my sloppy drill press is not enough to be of consequence ultimately in this process. I do use the mill on tower clock bushing work however and more recently I have been using the mill on my conventional bushing work too. It is slower work on my mill, so there is that. Jerry K. has consistently offered the best suggestions as to how to re-bush. I can't see any reason to argue with anything he has said in this regard.
 
Last edited:

TooManyClocks

NAWCC Member
Feb 6, 2019
197
52
28
63
Country
My two cents, which is certainly not as valuable as Jerry Kieffer’s and some others on this thread is to at least learn to bush by hand in the beginning, which is what I did for the first few years until recently a very old but hardly ever used KWM bushing machine came along at a price I couldn’t pass up. I wasn’t even looking for one, but there it was, complete with reamers.

If you start out with a bushing machine, they are not plug and play. There is a learning curve just as with hand bushing methods, and you cannot just line up the pivot hole to what you’re aiming for, ream the hole and expect any better results. The results can be worse than your worst hand bushing error. You still have to nibble out the unworn side of the hole until you have the hole centered, then ream for the bushing.

It still takes practice by whatever method; in other past threads it has been noted you can screw up using hand methods, a bushing machine, or a mill if you don’t understand what is required to achieve good results.

Besides, as a hobbyist, keeping expenses down when starting was a good idea, at least for me. I wanted to have this hobby, pay my bills, put food on the table and have something left over at the end of the month. Beginning with hand tools allowed this for me—and as others have noted, there will be otherwise rare inaccessible pivot holes that still require hand bushing so learning how is a good idea, in my opinion.

Dive in and do it—so many of your questions and uncertainties will be solved by doing. I don’t recommend practicing on anything more than a junk movement. Afterward, have your first clock repaired be something like an American kitchen or mantle clock that is more forgiving of mistakes. A fine French movement or a Vienna regulator is not forgiving, and they have tiny brittle pivots. Not the best place to start out.

Enjoy!

John

...the addiction only gets worse after you repair your first clock and it runs!
There is no cure

Edit: My very first clock still runs very well, even with me learning on it! It is in pretty much constant use:)
 
Last edited:

kinsler33

Registered User
Aug 17, 2014
3,656
483
83
73
Lancaster, Ohio, USA
Country
Region
I think if I ever decided to bother with a bushing machine I would make my own. They didn't exist when KWM and Bergeon began selling their press-in bushings in the 1960's: both assumed that you'd ream the holes by hand, using the needle-file method to render the worn hole symmetrical around its original center. That assumption was made because prior to press-in bushing systems everyone just reamed out the (symmetrized) hole with a cutting broach, cut a short slice of bushing wire that fit into the hole nicely, laid the plate on an anvil and riveted the bushing wire in with a few clops of a hammer. Then you broach out the inside diameter. Note: such bushings never fall out. (Bushing wire is still available: it's brass rod a few mm in diameter with about a 0.5mm hole down the middle)

I've bushed a few clocks this way, but mostly I use KWM bushings in holes symmetrized by a diamond reamer held in a bogus Dremel tool and then reamed with the appropriate reamer on my bottom-of-the-line Harbor Freight Tools benchtop drill press. Mark Butterworth has a video on the subject, and I do it like he does.

I still have problems with loose bushings, for the OD's are not held as constant as they need to be. Some of them can be pushed into the reamed holes by hand and others can barely be hammered in.

I wouldn't spend money on machine tools for clock work. A drill press, maybe, plus some sort of horizontal motor-driven shaft upon which you can mount a half-inch Jacobs chuck. This last will enable you to polish pivots, re-pivot wheels, and run buffing wheels and wire brush wheels. Lots of practitioners like flexible-shaft tools but I've never found much use for them.

Purchase tools as you learn to use them: don't try to start out with a complete set of anything, unless it's cheap.

M Kinsler
 

MuseChaser

NAWCC Member
Feb 5, 2019
187
40
28
Country
Region
....

I can suggest a $10.00 accurate method of bushing for occasional bushing if you wish, but would I be doing you a favor.

Jerry Kieffer
Jerry,

I've read quite a few of your posts and, as a beginner, I confess that much of your advice is beyond my comprehension, but the more I learn the more I understand a lot of it. My approach to almost anything is

1. Spend as little as possible for as much quality as possible.
2. Poor quality tools are NEVER worth the expenditure unless they are purchased with the idea that they are disposable, intended for a single use, and ease of use, accuracy, and longevity are not a factor (case in point.. one very bizarre deep reach clamp I needed to repair a boat transom. I'll never use it again; it was cheap, a piece of garbage, but it got that one job done).
3 Buying once for quality is better than buying two or more times and wishing you had bought quality.

I've heard you echo similar thoughts, and I am in agreement. At my development point in clock repair, I am not quite assured enough of my future endeavors to take the plunge into a $1000 or more mill purchase, but can see it in the future. If you'd be willing to share your $10.00 accurate method of occasional bushing, you most definitely WOULD be doing me a favor.... not sure about the original poster, but I know I for one would appreciate it. I've read some great posts by Willie X, Bangster, and others about hand bushing and have some KWM reamers made for a Bergeon handle, some cutting broaches, and bushing assortments on order. Anything you have to add about hand bushing would be very welcomed.

Thank you.
 

Jerry Kieffer

NAWCC Member
May 31, 2005
2,880
515
113
wisconsin
Country
Jerry,

I've read quite a few of your posts and, as a beginner, I confess that much of your advice is beyond my comprehension, but the more I learn the more I understand a lot of it. My approach to almost anything is

1. Spend as little as possible for as much quality as possible.
2. Poor quality tools are NEVER worth the expenditure unless they are purchased with the idea that they are disposable, intended for a single use, and ease of use, accuracy, and longevity are not a factor (case in point.. one very bizarre deep reach clamp I needed to repair a boat transom. I'll never use it again; it was cheap, a piece of garbage, but it got that one job done).
3 Buying once for quality is better than buying two or more times and wishing you had bought quality.

I've heard you echo similar thoughts, and I am in agreement. At my development point in clock repair, I am not quite assured enough of my future endeavors to take the plunge into a $1000 or more mill purchase, but can see it in the future. If you'd be willing to share your $10.00 accurate method of occasional bushing, you most definitely WOULD be doing me a favor.... not sure about the original poster, but I know I for one would appreciate it. I've read some great posts by Willie X, Bangster, and others about hand bushing and have some KWM reamers made for a Bergeon handle, some cutting broaches, and bushing assortments on order. Anything you have to add about hand bushing would be very welcomed.

Thank you.
Per your request.

This was posted sometime back by myself for someone looking for a one time method, requiring little to no skill development to return a movement back to original condition in regard to bushing.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


When you look at a elongated pivot hole you of course have a problem.
You will certainly court trouble if you create more issues.


(1) If you file another cavity on the opposite side you now create an even larger issue fugitively speaking.

(2) With this larger now really odd shaped hole, attempting to locate a center you have permanently removed can be a challenge. Especially with a tapered broach that will take the path of least resistance.

(3) assuming you get lucky and the broach centers on the original location, you now have a tapered hole for a non taperedbushing.

Certainly not an ideal mechanical solution.


For the beginner who is bushing for the very first time, challenges such as these are best avoided where possible and certainly avoidable in this case.


A logical set goal would be to predetermine where a bushing should be located and provide a method that would assure that location when drilling or using a bushing reamer for proper fit of the bushing.





If cost is a concern on the initial attempts, I would suggest the following method.

(1) locate a flat piece of steel about 8" long and drill a bushingsize hole in the middle of it.

(2) position the hole centered on the original pivot hole (Whats left of it) to be re bushed under magnification and clamp on both sides. (Per attached Photo)

(3) This will provide a guide when drilling or reaming assuring the predetermined location of the bushing hole removing all of the "Luck" and drama. It also provides non tapered bushing holes for proper mechanically fit bushings.





This method can also be used to correct poorly positioned bushing jobs.

(1) remove the existing bushing and reassemble the movement with poorly bushed arbor and next arbor.


(2) Install a bushing in the hole in the flat piece of steel and place the bushing/steel over the pivot with the poorly placedbushing.

(3) This will now allow you to depth the two arbors in place by moving the bushing/steel until ideal depth is achieved. Then clamp in place.

(4) disassemble the movement, push the bushing out of the steel piece from the back side and redrill/ream the proper depthed location assured by the steel guide.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



While these methods are not fast enough or efficient enough for everyday general repair, they offer the beginner an option for quality work with out experience and minimal cost.

Jerry Kieffer


DSCN5565.JPG
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
13,075
1,172
113
I too would recommend that you start out with hand tools. And, reamers made for KWM bushings but made to use in a Bergeon machine, or handle.
You will need 2 small sets of (10) bushings each, one 1.4mm in height and one 1.9mm in height, a proper handle, plus a #3 reamer and a set of broaches. Timesavers #s for these five items are as follows:
11604, 11605, bushings
14925, #3 reamer
22910, handle
17882, broaches
All suppliers sell this stuff but under different #s. So, if you order from another company make sure the item is of the same function. Mark Butterworth is a good reference for this stuff.
You will soon need other items but this short list (IMO) is a good jumping in point. it might be a good idea to put a nice vernier caliper at the top of this, or your next list! :) Bush on. Willie X
 

Jerry Kieffer

NAWCC Member
May 31, 2005
2,880
515
113
wisconsin
Country
I just noticed that something is missing in post #18.

One of the more common Bushing OD sizes often utilized in KWM is the 2.7mm.

When using the guide system with the 2.7 mm bushing, a #36 drill can be used to drill the guide and the bushing hole for a friction fit. A high quality drill should be used at a very slow rpm when drilling for the bushing.

Jerry Kieffer
 
  • Like
Reactions: MuseChaser

Bill Cann

Registered User
Mar 26, 2019
36
2
6
I started out using hand tools but I could only do a couple bushings at a time before my hands ached and cramped. I have been working with metal for awhile and have some large machine tools (mill, lathe, etc). So about a year ago I started making a bushing tool. The hard part was the frame, so looked around Amazon for ideas, and found a grommet press that was almost perfect. Using the press frame and a hand wheel from Amazon, I then machined the shaft, bearings, clamps, rails, anvils, etc, to make this bushing tool. Using a lot of metal stock on hand and many hours of machining, I had a nice $100 tool. I like the two separate bearings holding the shaft, it reduces the play.

Bushing Tool.jpg Bushing Tool Closeup.jpg .
 
  • Like
Reactions: JimmyOz

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
45,489
1,620
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
I wonder if a piece of a scrapped clock plate could be used for the same purpose. You could make the hole(s) with bushing size reamers, and then use those holes as the guide. It might have to be remade after a few uses, but it seems a reasonable place to start. What do you think, Jerry?
 

MuseChaser

NAWCC Member
Feb 5, 2019
187
40
28
Country
Region
Jerry,

Thank you very much for reposting that... very helpful. As a beginner, there's still a couple things that I don't quite understand about the process which, admittedly, may very well answer themselves once I actually go through it the first time myself. Some of my confusion is also undoubtedly fueled by my limited (but at least growing) understanding of some of the theory/physics behind clockworks in general. A couple questions about your post inserted below, if you have time...


(1) locate a flat piece of steel about 8" long and drill a bushingsize hole in the middle of it.
Is the thickness of the steel important? Judging by the helpful picture you included, it looks significantly thicker than a typical front- or backplate. More on that in a followup question re/ bushing thickness and depthing below...


This method can also be used to correct poorly positioned bushing jobs.

(1) remove the existing bushing and reassemble the movement with poorly bushed arbor and next arbor.
This is probably common knowledge to everyone other than me, but by "next arbor," do you mean the next one in the chain furthest from power, or closer to power? I.E., if you're bushing the third wheel pivot hole, do you pair it with the fourth wheel, or the second wheel?

(2) Install a bushing in the hole in the flat piece of steel and place the bushing/steel over the pivot with the poorly placedbushing.

(3) This will now allow you to depth the two arbors in place by moving the bushing/steel until ideal depth is achieved. Then clamp in place.
This is the part that I can't visualize. If the bushing is in the piece of steel and not the front- or backplate, how can the pivot of the arbor reach it? It won't extend far enough through the plate to reach a bushing in the steel, and if the steel is interior to the movement, it'll reduce the distance too much and the arbor won't fit. Are bushings thick enough that they can be held in place in the steel, yet also extend far enough into the worn hole in the plate for the pivot to reach? That's about the only way I can visualize it working... is that the case? Obviously, I've never had a new bushing in my hands, so this is probably a stupid question...

Also, i'm a little confused as to how to achieve proper depthing with only one other arbor. Each wheel, except for the first wheel and the anchor/verge in the time train, or the fly in a chime or strike chain, engages with a wheel/pinion of the arbor before it AND after it. Does not the location of the bushing determine the depthing of both the leading and following arbors? Is the usual procedure to get the depthing of the second wheel correct to the first wheel, THEN work the third to second, etc., until you get to the end of the train?

Again, obviously, my lack of knowledge and experience is the source of my confusion and I recognize that. Right now, I'm just relying on whatever meager amounts of logic and common sense I possess... and trying to learn more.

Thanks very much for your help. I'm getting scared. :) ... reamers, bushings, and broaches should be here in a few days, and I need to decide whether to permanently ruin my Hubert Herr cuckoo or a Seth Thomas 89C first... ;)
 

Jerry Kieffer

NAWCC Member
May 31, 2005
2,880
515
113
wisconsin
Country
Jerry,

Thank you very much for reposting that... very helpful. As a beginner, there's still a couple things that I don't quite understand about the process which, admittedly, may very well answer themselves once I actually go through it the first time myself. Some of my confusion is also undoubtedly fueled by my limited (but at least growing) understanding of some of the theory/physics behind clockworks in general. A couple questions about your post inserted below, if you have time...




Is the thickness of the steel important? Judging by the helpful picture you included, it looks significantly thicker than a typical front- or backplate. More on that in a followup question re/ bushing thickness and depthing below...




This is probably common knowledge to everyone other than me, but by "next arbor," do you mean the next one in the chain furthest from power, or closer to power? I.E., if you're bushing the third wheel pivot hole, do you pair it with the fourth wheel, or the second wheel?



This is the part that I can't visualize. If the bushing is in the piece of steel and not the front- or backplate, how can the pivot of the arbor reach it? It won't extend far enough through the plate to reach a bushing in the steel, and if the steel is interior to the movement, it'll reduce the distance too much and the arbor won't fit. Are bushings thick enough that they can be held in place in the steel, yet also extend far enough into the worn hole in the plate for the pivot to reach? That's about the only way I can visualize it working... is that the case? Obviously, I've never had a new bushing in my hands, so this is probably a stupid question...

Also, i'm a little confused as to how to achieve proper depthing with only one other arbor. Each wheel, except for the first wheel and the anchor/verge in the time train, or the fly in a chime or strike chain, engages with a wheel/pinion of the arbor before it AND after it. Does not the location of the bushing determine the depthing of both the leading and following arbors? Is the usual procedure to get the depthing of the second wheel correct to the first wheel, THEN work the third to second, etc., until you get to the end of the train?

Again, obviously, my lack of knowledge and experience is the source of my confusion and I recognize that. Right now, I'm just relying on whatever meager amounts of logic and common sense I possess... and trying to learn more.

Thanks very much for your help. I'm getting scared. :) ... reamers, bushings, and broaches should be here in a few days, and I need to decide whether to permanently ruin my Hubert Herr cuckoo or a Seth Thomas 89C first... ;)

While 1/8" and 3/16" will work, 1/4" steel is ideal. The reason for steel and the thickness is to resist dill hole enlargement and hold the drill 90 degrees to the plate for accurate hole placement. For easier positioning of the steel guide, the bottom of the movement plate pivot hole can be lite.


The second half of post #18 is ONLY for pivots that have been bushed in the wrong location from original. This aspect of bushing is rarely discussed and many will tell you that mistakes are never made and they have no returns. However in real life, we all make mistakes no mater how we do things with the key being the use of methods that decrease the chance of errors. If one receives a movement recently worked on that will not run with several new bushings, checking the depthing will likely be part of the diagnostic required minus any obvious reasons.

If wheels and pinions are to close together or to far away from each other, the assemble will not function or will have increased friction. To check for this issue, each wheel and pinion combination will need to be checked by how well they function/spin with each other in their respective place by themselves. By checking unworn combinations, you can get the feel for what they should feel like when spun.

If you encounter a combination with excessive resistance, in most cases a pivot placed downward with end play etc will extend slightly beyond the plate and can be engaged with a bushing in the steel guide. Especially with the old bushing removed.

There is nothing to be scared of. If you damage anything by anything I have suggested assuming common sense was used, and are unable to correct it, ship it to me and I will correct it for you.

Jerry Kieffer
 
  • Love
Reactions: MuseChaser

Jerry Kieffer

NAWCC Member
May 31, 2005
2,880
515
113
wisconsin
Country
I wonder if a piece of a scrapped clock plate could be used for the same purpose. You could make the hole(s) with bushing size reamers, and then use those holes as the guide. It might have to be remade after a few uses, but it seems a reasonable place to start. What do you think, Jerry?
Shutterbug
See post # 24

Jerry Kieffer
 
  • Like
Reactions: shutterbug

MuseChaser

NAWCC Member
Feb 5, 2019
187
40
28
Country
Region
...There is nothing to be scared of. If you damage anything by anything I have suggested assuming common sense was used, and are unable to correct it, ship it to me and I will correct it for you.

Jerry Kieffer
That clarification post was so helpful, and your offer is much too kind. If (when?) I damage something, it will CERTAINLY be solely due to my own ineptitude, and not because of anything you suggested!

Best wishes..

Barry
 

514 Poplar Street
Columbia, PA 17512

Phone: 717-684-8261

Contact the Webmaster for perceived copyright infringement (DMCA Registration Number 1010287).

Copyright © National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors Inc (A 501c3 non-profit corporation). All Rights Reserved.

The NAWCC is dedicated to providing association services, promoting interest in and encouraging the collecting of clocks and watches including disseminating knowledge of the same.