Bushing Tool Machine for hobbyist

[legosnell]

I need to get one of the basic must have tools even for the hobbyist like myself. A bushing tool and accessories. I've got the book "Clock Repair Basics" by Steven G. Conover and starting to go thru it and he talks about KWM, BERGEON and KEYSTONE. Not sure what a beginner would need to start out with. I'm trying to accumulate the necessary tools a little bit at a time since they are quite expensive. Can one of the clock guru's here suggest a basic bushing tool that would be right for a beginner hobbyist, just to maintain his own collection of mainly inexpensive mantel clocks? Even a used tool would be great.
I'll be tearing down for the first time one of the clocks in my collection for cleaning and repair, probably not a good one for a beginner to start out with because it's a three train movement with westminster chime, Junghans W64 movement (1952 year) Two bushing are worn out with pretty bad side to side play. This is on the chiming side first gear that meshes with the left side mainspring looking at the backside of the movement-pendulum side. One bushing on each plate worn out. All other bushings look pretty good.

When I think about it, In a way, it really doesn't make much sense for a hobbyist to spend $1000 + on a bushing tool so he can maintain a small collection of inexpensive mantel clocks with most of them only costing $50 or less. And additional tools probably required. Clock repair is an expensive endeavor to get into unless you can buy used tools dirt cheap.

Any ideas for a beginner hobbyist type bushing tool?
Appreciate the education and advice
Larry E Gosnell

 

[Dick Feldman]

Hello Larry,
A sufficient amount of accuracy can be obtained by installing bushings using common hand tools. In my estimation, much bad advice is given about installing bushings. Many of the tools suggested for that process can easily introduce error and do that consistently.
For instance, a normal drill press will have excessive run out in the spindle. Why bother?
Check out this link: https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Bushing-Using-Hand-Tools
I have used USA made bushings in KWM sizes for 30+ years with satisfactory results.
I do not believe that high price designates quality or will assure greater success.
If one is whore to tools, the above will be argued.
JMHO
Dick

 

[legosnell]

Hello Larry,
A sufficient amount of accuracy can be obtained by installing bushings using common hand tools. In my estimation, much bad advice is given about installing bushings. Many of the tools suggested for that process can easily introduce error and do that consistently.
For instance, a normal drill press will have excessive run out in the spindle. Why bother?
Check out this link: https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Bushing-Using-Hand-Tools
I have used USA made bushings in KWM sizes for 30+ years with satisfactory results.
I do not believe that high price designates quality or will assure greater success.
If one is whore to tools, the above will be argued.
JMHO
Dick

Thank you Dick, this makes so much more sense for the hobbyist. Hand tools for bushing repair rather than expensive bushing tool machinery.

 

[shutterbug]

If I were starting out again, I would consider a mill over a bushing machine. Not that much more expense, and lots more useful. Bushing by hand is slow and tedious, and a real workout for old hands. You'll get satisfactory results on big holes, but they get harder as the size decreases.

 

[John P]

Learn to bush a clock plate by hand. No matter what bushing machine you purchase will work on all the difficult to reach worn holes in a clock plate. You will have to fall back on hand bushing when this happens.

Get a set of broaches, both cutters and smoothers and an assortment set of KMW 1.4 and 1.9 high bushings. The cost wont break the bank. Messing up is part of the learning

You should get some experience on an old junk clock plate first. We all started out this way.

Pay shipping and ill send you some junk.

good luck
johnp

 

[Colin Drake]

http://instagr.am/p/B97hftCHrpt/
This what I did when the boss took the bushing machine so he could work from home during the first covid lockdown. The drill press, I think is about $100, but it had an incredibly accurate chuck. No wobble at all.

Small Benchtop Drill Press | DRL-300.00 - Power Drill Accessories - Amazon.com

Small Benchtop Drill Press | DRL-300.00 - Power Drill Accessories - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

I made a new spring and an adaptor for the hand wheel.
Thread Cutting Attachment Handwheel – Sherline Products

It wasn't the best, but it worked. I know that a lot of people are partial to bushing by hand, and I understand that, but it can be hard to get used to, and a lot can go wrong with it as well, as it can be very easy to ream the hole at the wrong angle. I think it all comes down to personal preference.

 

[Colin Drake]

On another note. I did clock repair full time for six years, and Junghans clocks scare me now more than ever.

 

[Vernon]

Hi Larry,
KWM. and Bergeon are each a proprietary bushing system. Keystone is a brand that uses the KWM. system. I am a hobbyist too. I started out with a few clocks that I purchased from antique stores, then joined the NAWCC. a few years later. I couldn't afford to pay for repairs so I assembled a few tools and started doing my own repairs. Over time, I've changed tooling a few times and now have a Sherline lathe and mill for all of my work. So, if your hobby is repair, beware because it is a lot of fun!

 

[Lynsey]

Hi Larry and Welcome to The World of Bushing. I am still doing them by hand and I enjoy it immensely. I thought about machinery but decided against it. If you learn to do it by hand, you will always have the skill. If you start with machinery, you may never obtain the skill. I think we repair clocks because we love to collect tools. Either way you go, have major fun and ask questions.

 

[legosnell]

Youtuber Chris Clock Repair suggested I start with Bergeon Cutters 1.97mm, 2.47mm, 2.97mm, 3.47mm. Is the term cutter and reamer the same thing, same tool?? Bergeon Reamer adapter for drill press (Timesavers), Small set of 5 sided Broaches 5 pack from size 0.77mm to 2.27mm or similar range, individual Bushing sizes for each of the cutters in 10 to 25 packs, one set for each cutter. Bushing OD = 2x pivot OD. Also need a set of Smoothers and probably a small set of wire Drill bits. The basic barebone tools to start with. Sound about right? I can come up with my own pusher for drill press and I may remove belt from drill press and just rotate it slowly by hand.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

I need to get one of the basic must have tools even for the hobbyist like myself. A bushing tool and accessories. I've got the book "Clock Repair Basics" by Steven G. Conover and starting to go thru it and he talks about KWM, BERGEON and KEYSTONE. Not sure what a beginner would need to start out with. I'm trying to accumulate the necessary tools a little bit at a time since they are quite expensive. Can one of the clock guru's here suggest a basic bushing tool that would be right for a beginner hobbyist, just to maintain his own collection of mainly inexpensive mantel clocks? Even a used tool would be great.
I'll be tearing down for the first time one of the clocks in my collection for cleaning and repair, probably not a good one for a beginner to start out with because it's a three train movement with westminster chime, Junghans W64 movement (1952 year) Two bushing are worn out with pretty bad side to side play. This is on the chiming side first gear that meshes with the left side mainspring looking at the backside of the movement-pendulum side. One bushing on each plate worn out. All other bushings look pretty good.

When I think about it, In a way, it really doesn't make much sense for a hobbyist to spend $1000 + on a bushing tool so he can maintain a small collection of inexpensive mantel clocks with most of them only costing $50 or less. And additional tools probably required. Clock repair is an expensive endeavor to get into unless you can buy used tools dirt cheap.

Any ideas for a beginner hobbyist type bushing tool?
Appreciate the education and advice
Larry E Gosnell

Larry
Under no circumstances would I suggest anyone do anything they are not happy with or wish to do such as Linsey`s post #9.

However there are always two sides to a story that should be considered.

Back 300 years ago during the cottage industry, the average individual was lucky to truly master one or two handwork procedures in a life time.
It was a truly rare person who was able to master construction of a complete movement by themselves. Around the mid 1800s, machine tools were developed to construct interchangeable parts in production. Shortly after, machine tools became available and the average person was now capable of developing the skill to machine complete movements in a short period of time.

In todays world, small machine tools are very reasonable in price when compared to capabilities.

Inexpensive hand bushing procedures as commonly suggested, is a trial and error method with unassured results depending on long term skill development. Bushing machines provide less drama, but have no purpose other than bushing.

On the other hand, a Small milling machine (as mentioned by Shutterbug) can bush to a highly accurate pre determined location duplicating original conditions as well as correct ones own errors and those of others. This is unlike other commonly suggested methods since the Mill only requires a fraction of the skill and is made responsible for the accuracy.

However the Mill has the ability to enrich the rest of your life in that it can be used in the repair of everything from autos to a sink faucet.

One quick example.
A neighbors home furnace had a deteriorated pig metal fitting in the induction fan assembly and could only be purchased by purchasing the whole assembly for $550.00. since the dealer would not sell the assembly without installation for liability reasons, the total cost would have been over $700.00

One and a half hours later the simple basic fitting had been machined and has function flawlessly for years.

Again in todays world, a small Mill capable and equipped for bushing and other work will run about $850.00.

I can suggest a $10.00 accurate method of bushing for occasional bushing if you wish, but would I be doing you a favor.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[Jim DuBois]

There are literally hundreds of related discussions around how to rebush movements. I have no idea why I feel compelled to add my comments but it seems to me that many discussions overlook the obvious. And that obvious point IMO is this is not rocket science. Opinions don't count, including mine.

I have rebushed successfully using the hand held approach. I have used a needle file to equal out the worn hole (bad idea) . I have used a twist drill.(bad idea) I have used D bits. I have used a reamer, I have used a milling cutter (bad idea). I have used boring tools on larger bushings. I have used bits I made myself following the Jerry Kieffer approach, that being grinding an angle across a properly sized piece of round tool steel. I have used a high accuracy drill press, I have used a sloppy drill press, I have used a small mill, I have used a large mill. I have used bushing machines made by at least 3 companies.

On the whole, I got it right no matter how I did it. I confess I got sloppy on a couple of them and had to redo the bushing by depthing the wheel/pinion and moving to a slightly larger busing to correct the depthing. But I learned from those. This is a process you almost have to work at to get it wrong, if you think through your process before making chips.

And I have rebushed everything from miniature carriage clock movements to tower clocks. Today, I don't try to equal out the worn hole with anything. I make absolutely certain I have the conventional bushing cutters, those supplied by the various bushing companies, properly centered over the worn hole. I then either use my sloppy drill press or small mill, they both go round. That is about all that is necessary...going around that is. The run out on my sloppy drill press is not enough to be of consequence ultimately in this process. I do use the mill on tower clock bushing work however and more recently I have been using the mill on my conventional bushing work too. It is slower work on my mill, so there is that. Jerry K. has consistently offered the best suggestions as to how to re-bush. I can't see any reason to argue with anything he has said in this regard.

 

[Jim DuBois]

If you really want to get serious about absolute the best accuracy you might think about this machine. Dog not necessary.

 

[TJ Cornish]

View attachment 625577
If you really want to get serious about absolute the best accuracy you might think about this machine. Dog not necessary.

This is your small mill, right? What's the work envelope?

 

[TooManyClocks]

My two cents, which is certainly not as valuable as Jerry Kieffer’s and some others on this thread is to at least learn to bush by hand in the beginning, which is what I did for the first few years until recently a very old but hardly ever used KWM bushing machine came along at a price I couldn’t pass up. I wasn’t even looking for one, but there it was, complete with reamers.

If you start out with a bushing machine, they are not plug and play. There is a learning curve just as with hand bushing methods, and you cannot just line up the pivot hole to what you’re aiming for, ream the hole and expect any better results. The results can be worse than your worst hand bushing error. You still have to nibble out the unworn side of the hole until you have the hole centered, then ream for the bushing.

It still takes practice by whatever method; in other past threads it has been noted you can screw up using hand methods, a bushing machine, or a mill if you don’t understand what is required to achieve good results.

Besides, as a hobbyist, keeping expenses down when starting was a good idea, at least for me. I wanted to have this hobby, pay my bills, put food on the table and have something left over at the end of the month. Beginning with hand tools allowed this for me—and as others have noted, there will be otherwise rare inaccessible pivot holes that still require hand bushing so learning how is a good idea, in my opinion.

Dive in and do it—so many of your questions and uncertainties will be solved by doing. I don’t recommend practicing on anything more than a junk movement. Afterward, have your first clock repaired be something like an American kitchen or mantle clock that is more forgiving of mistakes. A fine French movement or a Vienna regulator is not forgiving, and they have tiny brittle pivots. Not the best place to start out.

Enjoy!

John

...the addiction only gets worse after you repair your first clock and it runs!
There is no cure

Edit: My very first clock still runs very well, even with me learning on it! It is in pretty much constant use

 

[kinsler33]

I think if I ever decided to bother with a bushing machine I would make my own. They didn't exist when KWM and Bergeon began selling their press-in bushings in the 1960's: both assumed that you'd ream the holes by hand, using the needle-file method to render the worn hole symmetrical around its original center. That assumption was made because prior to press-in bushing systems everyone just reamed out the (symmetrized) hole with a cutting broach, cut a short slice of bushing wire that fit into the hole nicely, laid the plate on an anvil and riveted the bushing wire in with a few clops of a hammer. Then you broach out the inside diameter. Note: such bushings never fall out. (Bushing wire is still available: it's brass rod a few mm in diameter with about a 0.5mm hole down the middle)

I've bushed a few clocks this way, but mostly I use KWM bushings in holes symmetrized by a diamond reamer held in a bogus Dremel tool and then reamed with the appropriate reamer on my bottom-of-the-line Harbor Freight Tools benchtop drill press. Mark Butterworth has a video on the subject, and I do it like he does.

I still have problems with loose bushings, for the OD's are not held as constant as they need to be. Some of them can be pushed into the reamed holes by hand and others can barely be hammered in.

I wouldn't spend money on machine tools for clock work. A drill press, maybe, plus some sort of horizontal motor-driven shaft upon which you can mount a half-inch Jacobs chuck. This last will enable you to polish pivots, re-pivot wheels, and run buffing wheels and wire brush wheels. Lots of practitioners like flexible-shaft tools but I've never found much use for them.

Purchase tools as you learn to use them: don't try to start out with a complete set of anything, unless it's cheap.

M Kinsler