Bushing repair

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Kipster, Feb 11, 2019 at 1:45 PM.

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  1. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    Hi all,

    I am interested in putting bushings in regula 25, 34 and Hubert Herr cuckoo clocks. I am fairly new to clock repair. I have decided to start with hand tools. So I am considering KWM or Bergeron hand tools. What specific hand tool, reamer, cutter and adapter do you recommend. Also what specific bushing sizes do I need for the above listed movement types. I only want to purchase what specifically is required to repair cuckoo clock movements. I have read a lot of the bushing posts and I still am a little confused on what to purchase. I am just starting out and I really don’t want to make any mistakes. I want to get started slowly and buy additional tools as required. There is really no one in the area that can help me learn, so I am using the resources from your library,etc. Thanks
     
  2. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Welcome to the forum Kipster.

    Have you looked at this thread Bushing Using Hand Tools

    The KWM system bushing are slightly smaller in outside diameter than the Bergeon and thus are preferred by some members. Other than that they will both suffice and have corresponding reamers.

    David
     
  3. David S

    David S Registered User
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    I don't work on a lot of cuckoo clocks, so I hoped that others would have come up with some suggestions. It sounds like you want a minimum investment to get started so I would start with the KWM system.

    Here is what I think could be a good starter kit, and hopefully others will chime in with other suggestions.

    KWM reamer #3 which is for 2.7mm OD bushings.
    KWM handle to hold the reamers, for manual application.
    KWM assortment kit #1 which has 10 sizes from #14 to #68.

    You will need some sort of tool to open up the bushing ID to fit the pivot. Most folks used a tapered broach, not sure of the size. You can check TimeSavers for the ones that cover the ID for the selection of bushings.
    Again if you are following the hand insertion method as outlined in the link you will need some fine needle files.

    Also it would help us if you could show your country of origin in the profile so we can better direct you to a source for supplies. There are Timesavers in teh US as well as Mark Butterworth, and Perrins in Canada.

    David
     
  4. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    If you have a quality drill press you can also consider this tool which lets you use the KWM style reamers and other tools with your drill press platform to help keep things square and true. Do not use the drill press motor - turn the pulley by hand - and you will need something to hold the plates in the proper position so that they don't move.

    KWM Style Bushing Reamer Adapter For Drill Press

    for a bit more money - this adapter lets you use the KWM bits in your drill press and helps to insure that the plate and the reamer are true.

    KWM Clamp On Bushing Tool
     
  5. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    Thanks David, I really appreciate your help. If I decide to move up to a drill press can you use the same reamers?
     
  6. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Yes the reamers are specific to each size bushing.

    David
     
  7. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    But I'd recommend going at it by hand for a while, before moving to power tools. Easy to mess things up if your drill press doesn't run true.
     
  8. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I would stick to the hand power to, not much meat on cuckoo clocks. 1.4mm will be the correct height for the bushings in all common modern cuckoo movements.

    Note, cuckoos are more difficult to work on than your average 2 train clock. They aren't that complicated but small and in many ways not designed to work on.

    Willie X
     
  9. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    What size broach do I need to smooch out ID of bushings? Do I need any other tool to finish the bushing?
     
  10. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Broaches don't come in singles. Buy a set. You'll never regret it.
     
  11. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
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    Throw a small assortment of e-clips on your order. It's inexpensive insurance as these little things can go flying!
     
  12. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    #12 Kipster, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:07 AM
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 9:15 AM
    Seriously guys, what specific tools,tool do you use to cut or smooth or file the bushing internal diameter. Do you need a burnishing tool, a chamfering tool, tapered broach, fine needle files, and a flat driving punch. Also the process or technique of doing this. It is very difficult when one is starting out and I could really appreciate your help. I am a little confused about the different tools and what they actually do and the step by step process of using them. Very frustrating on my end. Thanks
     
  13. THTanner

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  14. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    #14 R. Croswell, Feb 12, 2019 at 10:17 AM
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 10:32 AM
    Very understandable that there is confusion, I believe mostly because not everyone uses the same method and therefore not the same tools.

    Reamers are used to open the hole in the plate to an exact undersize required for the bushing to be installed. Reamers are intended to be used in a "bushing machine" and are sometimes used in a drill press or milling machine that ensures that the reamer is perpendicular to the plate. Reamers do not work well when hand held because they are difficult to hold true so the hole is often crooked and without parallel sides required for a friction fit bushing

    Files When bushing a pivot hole that is worn oval, one needs to "round up" that hole dead center over where the original hole was located. Some us files for this, I do not. I use the "nibbling" method with a reamer but turning the reamer just a partial turn to cut away the unworn side of the hole until it is round.

    Cutting broaches are tapered usually 5-sided long slender tools. These are used mostly to open the inside diameter of the bushing after it is installed until it fits the size of the pivot. A broached bushing will have a slightly tapered hole so the broach is usually used from both sides of the bushing so the "high spot" will be in the middle of the bushing instead of at either end. The taper is slight, and while a few here will argue that it is unacceptable, but it is a recognized technique that has proven successful over many years.

    Smoothing broaches, like cutting broaches, are tapered long slender tools but do mot have cutting edges. They have an unpolished and slightly textured surface. After the bushing is broached to size, a smoothing with a little oil on it is inserted into the hole and rotated to burnish or smooth the opening.

    Smoothing & cutting broaches are available from www.timesavers.com and other suppliers as individual broaches, or in sets covering a range of sizes. Spend the extra money to get Swiss or German broaches. Some of the cheap ones, especially those from India perform poorly and/or quickly wear out. A collection of individual broaches will cost more than a set. Selecting broaches with the smallest amount of taper will give the best results. A set with very few broaches to cover a wide range will have more taper.

    Flat driving punch If you use a "bushing machine" (or drill press, etc.) you will want a flat driver that fits your specific machine. If you attempt to install bushings "by hand" you will need a steel rod with a flat end that can be used with a hammer to drive the bushing in - you will also need some way to support the plate under the hole into which the bushing is driven. Some have used parallel jaw pliers to squeeze the bushing in.

    Chamfer tool is required to remove any burr at the end of the bushing after broaching. Also if there is any burr after reaming the hole in the plate a light application of the chamfer tool is used to remove the burr to help the bushing enter the hole straight. The chamfer tool can be used in a machine or hand holder.

    The exceptions & confusing stuff
    What works with a bushing machine does not always work well when attempted "by hand". Some folks working with hand tools only do not use reamers to open the hole in the plate for a bushing (almost impossible to hand-hold a reamer true enough) so they use a tapered broach for this purpose to create an undersized tapered hole. The bushing is driven into the hole and usually pounded, peened, or expanded using a ball bearing or round-end punch. The bushing is usually distorted in the process so the hole then has to be broached even if the bushing fit properly before installation.

    Rather than using tapered broaches to bring the opening in the bushing to proper size, some here use straight cutters made from gauge pins. This of course requires a drill press or mill to guide the cutter perpendicular to plate.

    There is some disagreement about the necessity of smoothing broaches to finish the hole. Obviously one would not want to use a tapered smoothing broach to finish a hole having parallel sides such as a new bushing that does not require opening, or a bushing that was opened with a drill or tool that left it with parallel sides. I recommend that smoothing broached be used where tapered cutting broaches have been used, and they should have the same degree of taper if possible - that's what they are fore. Sometimes sets of broaches are sold as either cutting or smoothing sets, get both.

    Bushing system & bushing selection There are two systems - KWM and Bergeon. I prefer Bergeon and others prefer KWM. Reamers are available for both systems to either style machine, so it isn't a case of either or, but which style bushing is best for the particular job. KWM bushing have a smaller OD for the same size ID and are best when installing near the edge of a plate. Bergeon bushings have more "meat" and a larger OD for a given ID and are best where the original pivot hold has a bunch of prick punch marks or extreme wear to cover. I would get an assortment of bushings not a bushing assortment. Most of the assortments have sizes that are seldom used. One approach is to measure the pivots in the clock being repaired and order just the sizes that will be needed order extras and eventually you will have the sizes you mostly use. Its good to minimize the amount of broaching required so get bushing sizes as close as possible without going over.

    RC
     
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  15. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    #15 bangster, Feb 12, 2019 at 10:29 AM
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 10:37 AM
    Bushing Using Hand Tools shows the tools you need: broaches, needle files, pin vise for the broaches, small hammer, anvil block of some kind. You don't really need a reamer to get started. You can get the same results with a cutting broach. Just be careful not to get the hole too big. Should be so's you have to force the bushing into the hole, not just drop it in. And a selection of bushings. Timesavers 11605.

    A cutting broach is a long skinny tapered 5-sided reamer. A smoothing broach is what it sound like: a long skinny tapered smooth thing. See the pictures in the tutorial. Use cutting broaches to prepare the hole in the plate. When broaching the hole in the plate, keep the broach right angle to the plate in all dimensions. If necessary, use them again to size the hole in the bushing once it's installed in the plate. When it's the right size for the pivot (not too tight),finish it off with a smoothing broach. If it's a cuckoo movement, it should have quite a bit of slack. As it smooths the inside of the bush, it does a bit of work hardening of the brass. Chamfering cutter can wait until later. Don't really need it to install bushings.

    It ain't rocket surgery, no matter what RC says.:D But follow his advice on important stuff.
     
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  16. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    ....but we ain't operating on rockets, thank God. But I do believe that the major cause of clocks performing poorly, or failing prematurely after a rebuild is incorrectly located and/or improperly fitted bushings, which can happen regardless of the method and tools used.

    RC
     
  17. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Personally, I don't use smoothing broaches. The pivot will be pressing against only a small section of the bushing, and will smooth it out by itself in little time.
     
  18. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    There is a recent developement. In the recent past you could buy American made KWM size bushing and a KWM #3 cutter to fit a Bergeon handle, or bushing tool. It appears that now this cutter has to come from Bergeon at twice the price.
    Mark would know the details.

    In past threads of this nature, and there are many, I have always recommended KWM bushings with KWM cutters made to fit a Bergeon machine, or handle. This is becaise the Bergeon mount is simpler with zero wobble and the cutter will not fall out. KMW cutters/tools are quicker to change but will always wobble and fall out, if you are using then in a handle.

    With that being said, unless someone has the above mentioned KWM cutters, with a Bergeon mount at a reasonable cost, the extra cost probably wouldn't justify the benifit. If you are hand bushing using a handle only ... maybe.

    Willie X
     
  19. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    #19 Kipster, Feb 12, 2019 at 1:46 PM
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 1:55 PM
    Wow, thank you for the valuable information. Now I feel I can order the proper tools and understand what they do (hopefully understand). I need to jump in and start practicing on a couple old plates that need bushings. When I start,hopefully I can show some of my work and share my experiences of learning to put bushings in. My nearest NAWCC group is approximately 100 miles from me. I might reach out and see if anyone in that group can help a little bit. Thanks again for sharing your experience and time.
     
  20. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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  21. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Thats ok the link in post #2 works.

    David
     
  22. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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  23. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    Do you think the above item could be used instead of Bergeon system for bushings?


    MicroLux® Tapping Fixture
    Item #: 87362
     
  24. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    That would be a big help. Bergeon mount cutters will work in a 3 jaw chuck but you have to be careful to agline the flat (where the set-screw goes) between any two of the jaws. KMW mounts have a pin at the side. I'm sure it would go between the jaws but the length of the pin might be a problem on a smaller chuck.

    Normally you would file or 'nibble' the worn hole back to the original center by hand and then finish the job with that driling jig.

    You will need a light coil spring to hold the spindle up about one inch from your work but you may be able to simply hold up on the spindle with some practice. Almost no down pressure is needed on small bushings in thin plates, like a cuckoo. Willie X
     
  25. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    #25 Kipster, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:36 PM
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 10:20 PM
    Hi Willie,

    I thought this item might be a lot less money with a few modifications.
     
  26. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    #26 Kipster, Feb 13, 2019 at 9:58 AM
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019 at 10:12 AM
    One more question-I would like to buy just a couple broaches and maybe one reamer to keep cost down.
    For Regula and Hubert Hurr cuckoo.

    What order # on timesavers?
    What size cutting broaches for regula and Hubert Hurr cuckoo clocks?
    What size smoothing broaches?
    What size reamer?
    What size Chamfer tool?
    What Pin vise?

    Thanks
     
  27. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Link at 22 goes nowhere.:(
     
  28. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    Sorry about the bad link. Hopefully it will now.
    Could this be used in place of the Bergeon tool system?
    upload_2019-2-13_12-17-34.jpeg
     
  29. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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  30. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I would be a bit concerned about the rigidity of that unit. For about the same money you could get this desk top drill press that is substantially more rigid and can be used for a lot of other purposes. The same drill press bushing tool would be used in both. The drill press has a large, adjustable bottom surface to secure the movement plate to. The pulley cover opens up to turn the slave pulley by hand.

    https://www.toolots.com/toughworks-5-speed-8-bench-drill-press-at-max-5-8-drill-chuck-capacity-w-2-5-vise.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAnY_jBRDdARIsAIEqpJ0-yFzZroPLRUn3I1S8Ob8evIUucnt8dlQb1epVFkS_VRVGT2p5M5saAuIwEALw_wcB
     
  31. Jay Fortner

    Jay Fortner Registered User
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    Good chamfering cutters are rotory ball files(burrs). Sizes 1/16" - 3/8" diameter will chamfer and cut oil sinks in just about any job your going to do.
    Always smooth broach after any cutting procedure to remove burrs.
     
  32. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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  33. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Observations:

    (1) Absolute basics: A set of cutting broaches, a pin vise to turn these with, a bundle of bushing wire to make bushings out of (like very thick-walled brass tubing), a jeweler's saw and a bunch of blades to cut bushings off of the bushing wire, a vise, a hammer, and an anvil. And some very thin diamond files that'll fit into the holes (they make these to fit Dremel-type tools.)

    Then: Locate ovalled-out hole and use the thin file to correct it (there's lots of information on this elsewhere.)
    Find a piece of bushing wire large enough to accommodate the pivot to be bushed.
    Ream out the hole in the plate so that it's a fairly snug fit on the bushing wire. Countersink/de-burr both sides of the hole a bit.
    Cut a piece off the bushing wire about twice the thickness of the plate.
    Lay the plate flat on the anvil. Insert that little piece of bushing wire into the hole. Both plate and bushing wire should contact the anvil surface.
    Apply several virtuous whacks to the protruding bushing such that if flattens out and fills the countersunk regions on each side of the hole.
    Your new bushing should now be tightly riveted in. Carefully ream out the pivot hole such that it fits the pivot.
    There should be some side-play for the pivot. The arbor should be able to wiggle about five degrees total, and maybe even more.
    Put the plates and your wheel together and test to make sure that the wheel turns freely. You may need to increase end-play with countersink and file.

    Note that you always need a bit of side-play because movement plates tend to bend and twist when the clock is wound, and this will stop a tightly-bushed wheel.
    If you can learn to make this sort of bushing, which is the classic method of doing so, you'll be well prepared for any other method. Press-in KWM or Bergeon bushings are faster to use--that's why they were invented--but they do have an unpleasant tendency to fall out of the clock, while riveted bushings do not.

    (2) Bushing machines are not worth the money, or half the money. They wobble as much as any drill press, including the cheapest offered at Harbor Freight, which is what I use for press-in bushings. It's fast, and it's always square.

    (3) You don't need a lathe right now.

    (4) Get catalogs from Timesavers, Ronnell, Black Forest, and Merritt's. And any others you can find. Read them through. Read them through again.

    (5) Prepare to build yourself a competent mainspring winding machine if you expect to be working with spring-wound clocks. There are instructions here. You'll also need a let-down tool for both the machine and for general fooling with mainsprings.

    (6) If you do get to one of the NAWCC meetings see if you can buy enough dead clock movements and other horological debris to start a good junk box.

    (7) Corollary to (6): never throw any bit of metal away. You'll need it. (Maybe.)

    Mark Kinsler
     
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  34. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Pay attention to what Mark Kinsler say. Don't go complicating the issue. Please don't.
     
  35. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    Bushing machines are not worth the money, or half the money. They wobble as much as any drill press, including the cheapest offered at Harbor Freight, which is what I use for press-in bushings. It's fast, and it's always square.
    Where the heck did you get this information. I have been using a bushing machine for over 40 years and it is very accurate. And I don't see how any proper clock repair can be done without a lathe or the proper tools. And my bushing don't fall out. I use KWM Who the heck taught you to do this kind of work?? I use to teach for the NAWCC and I sorry but this is off the chart.
     
  36. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Chiming in as a newbie here so for what it's worth:
    When I caught the clock repair bug I read as much as I could find and when I knew that I was going to commit to it one of the very first tools I purchased was a Bergeon bushing machine. I bought it off "the bay" and it was probably more money than I should have spent and it came with a very small set of reamers and bits. I love this machine so much I found and purchased the deluxe Bergeon accessory set which cost more than the machine itself! The machine gave me confidence to dive in to movements that I may not have done otherwise. I actually look forward to bushing a movement. I still plan to try my hand at hand bushing but every time I get to that point I see the Bergeon sitting there...and I cant help myself.

    Pat
     
  37. Time After Time

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    Kipster, putting on my Captain Obvious hat now, you'll find a wide array of opinions here on the Message Board. Everyone has different life experiences. Folks who have made Horology their life's work can be very passionate and adamant about how things should be done. I'm no different. I don't care much for "Intact Cleaning" or screw-in bushings, while some folks think they have a place in clock repair and maintenance.

    I really can't speak to Bushing Machines as I don't own one and have never laid eyes on one in person. I have recently added a Mill to my shop and use it to bush plates as per Jerry's methodology. I'm told it's accuracy can match that of a Bushing Machine and I'm pretty confident that I'm now placing bushings on center with more consistent accuracy than I have ever been able to do before. It currently takes me much longer to bush a plate than it did when I was using a Bench Top Drill Press, but that's okay. In my opinion it is well worth it and I'm sure I'll get faster as I get more proficient with practice.

    Regarding other tools and equipment, I think Mark was speaking of someone just starting out. I didn't own a Lathe at first. I did okay and farmed out repairs, such as re-pivoting arbors when I had to. My pivot re-finishing work was pretty basic but I left them in much better condition than I found them.

    Hopefully we can guide you on a path to the kind of shop you wish to build. It can be expensive enough without wasting time and money going down dead ends.

    Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.

    Welcome!

    (Hey Jay! It's good to see you around.)
     
  38. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    I appreciate everyone’s advice. Thank you

    DB
     
  39. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Kips,
    If you are mainly working on Regula 25s, a pack of #65 KWM bushings, a #2 KWM reamer/D- cutter, and a set of broachs will get you a long way.

    One of my most used cuckoo clock tools is a small 7/32" nut driver (XceLite P-7).

    If you want a larger scale bushing, a #14 KWM bushing and a #3 reamer will get you to the same place but the scale looks better with the smaller #65, IMO. This photo shows a #65 in a Regula 25 movement. Not easy but doable with practice. Willie X
    20190214_133702.jpg
     
  40. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I sort of knew that my bushing machine advice would cause trouble, but when I came upon a wobbly example of one of these costly devices (I believe it was new) I wondered about the accuracy needed in this operation given the tolerances usually encountered in clock movements. Very bluntly, clock movements run at low speeds and they rattle. (So do watches, for that matter.) If a movement doesn't rattle when you shake it, your bushings are too tight.

    If clock movements were driven by belts or chains or shafts with universal joints and their plates thus didn't have to withstand the stress of the motive power (springs or weights) then we could use very tight bushings. As it is, however, the plates deflect and twist when the clock is wound (weights notwithstanding) and this can make a pivot bind in its bushing.

    M Kinsler
     
  41. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    #41 Time After Time, Feb 14, 2019 at 6:22 PM
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019 at 6:29 PM
    You have to have end-shake (with all movements) and sufficient tolerances to allow for plate deflection (in cheaply made movements with thin plates) but I think the main thing with bushing machines (or any high precision approach) is maintaining proper depths by keeping the center of a pivot on center. You also need pivot holes which are perpendicular to the plates and in perfect alignment across the two plates. This becomes more difficult as the pivot diameters decrease. Error that you can "get by" with on a 1.5mm pivot may kill you with a 0.9 mm pivot. You can not put in tighter tolerances than the movement was designed for but sloppy depths from poor bushing placements waste energy and there's usually not a lot to waste before the movement begins to run poorly.
     
  42. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    Thanks again. I do have another question. I just replaced and old regula 25 with a new one. I put the old bird post and bird lock plate on the new regula movement. It appeared to work ok except for intermittent times the cuckoo keeps going and will not stop. Furthermore, when working, # of cuckoos is not correct.

    Kp
     
  43. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    #43 Kipster, Feb 14, 2019 at 8:50 PM
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019 at 9:39 PM
    Pictures on new regula-if I am in the wrong forum section, please let me know. Not sure if rack, snail and count arm are in correct position. I can’t figure out why a new movement would give me this problem. Could I have done something wrong, just putting it in the case?

    13D86BA3-820D-4DEF-B79B-F943687D5E99.jpeg 215C66EF-38ED-49E3-831A-1BD16E5C5D9B.jpeg image.jpg
     
  44. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    The arm with the circle on the far left might be in contact with something in the case? If it is held
    down by something I think the cuckoo will sing again and again.
     
  45. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    #45 Kipster, Feb 14, 2019 at 9:42 PM
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019 at 9:55 PM
    I have it out of the case and it is still intermittent. Sometimes it runs fine, other times it just continues running.
     
  46. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    The video does not work. With the movement out of the case, check the operation of the gathering pallet as it pulls up the rack one tooth at a time. At the same time, the rack hook's tip should drop between the rack teeth to prevent the rack from dropping back down. The gathering pallet is slipping on its shaft, or the rack hook isn't holding the rack in place, and it should be apparent how to correct either.

    If the movement won't strike properly when in the case you can remove the hands and the dial and see if something's hitting the case when it shouldn't.

    M Kinsler
     
  47. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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    How do you link a video from an iPad or iPhone? Do you create it in YouTube first or can you directly upload from Ipad/phone. Neither is happening in the above scenarios. However, (out of case) it will at times continue at the end of the strike sequence, keep going.
     
  48. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    you have to upload it to you tube -
     
  49. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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  50. Kipster

    Kipster Registered User
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