Bushing question

[Lloyd M]

I am working on a wall clock that has "New Haven" stamped on the movement. After cleaning and oiling, it still only runs for a while(1-2 hours) before stopping. The verge escape wheel will catch randomly, and I am thinking that the pivots are maybe to loose. I have not rebushed a movement yet, but was going to do this one. The front plate has large bushings (.168" OD) on several of the pivots, and are not a size that I see in the parts books. The escape wheel seems to be one of the loosest. The back plate does not have any bushing yet. Can I rebush the larger bushings with the KWM 2.7mm od bushing? Also, the verge is sort of crooked as it hits the escape wheel, would this stop the clock? The pinions are showing wear also, how much is too much? Here are some photos.

 

[Lloyd M]

I am working on a wall clock that has "New Haven" stamped on the movement. After cleaning and oiling, it still only runs for a while(1-2 hours) before stopping. The verge escape wheel will catch randomly, and I am thinking that the pivots are maybe to loose. I have not rebushed a movement yet, but was going to do this one. The front plate has large bushings (.168" OD) on several of the pivots, and are not a size that I see in the parts books. The escape wheel seems to be one of the loosest. The back plate does not have any bushing yet. Can I rebush the larger bushings with the KWM 2.7mm od bushing? Also, the verge is sort of crooked as it hits the escape wheel, would this stop the clock? The pinions are showing wear also, how much is too much? Here are some photos.

 

[eskmill]

Rebush as needed and don't overlook giving the pivots a "lick and promise" as well. It's one of the simplest things you can do to a clock when it's disassembled to make it run better and for more years.

Your excellently detailed photos reveal a rather serious problem that in my opinion needs to be corrected before you go any further. It may be the reason the clock stops frequently. That is the worn condition of the teeth on the mainspring wheel. They're badly worn and likely the wires in the mating pinion also need to be replaced.

Most repairers simply disassemble the mainspring wheel, remove the click and click spring, turn the wheel over and re-assemble. It gives the wheel a new "lease on life."

 

[harold bain]

Also, LLoyd, your pictures show serious wear on the escapewheel lantern pinion. This also could be stopping your clock. For sure replace the bushings that are loose.
Harold

 

[John Echternach]

Lloyd: Coincidently I am having the EXACT same problem with a movement that sounds like an identical twin to yours! I was going to post a message this evening asking the same questions. I am very new to clock repair so I have "zip" experience which is worth its weight in gold. If anyone else can weigh in on this issue it would be very helpful and MOST appreciated! Sincerely, John #0159010
P.S. Eckmill, what do you mean by "a lick and a promise"?

 

[eskmill]

'Sorry John. I should remember to not use slang that's old like me. "Lick and a promise" I think refers to work not well done or delayed 'till later such as polishing shoes, harness and other leather goods. I meant that you really can't get much of a good polish on the soft steel pivots found on most old Connecticut clocks. The best you can do is to remove scoring and assure the pivot is somewhat cylindrical in shape. The steel just isn't hard enough to take a high polish finish.

While answering, I think we need to point out to Lloyd M that we may have sounded critical in responding to his query about bushing. We mean only to provide helpful advice.

 

[Lloyd M]

Thanks for the input, now how do you remove the mainspring wheel? Is it peened onto the arbor? Also, with the escape wheel, can it be removed without distroying it? I assume the lantern pinions would need new arbor and pinion, but the ones in Timesaver are only 2" long, does that mean that I need to get a lathe to shorten?

 

[Scottie-TX]

Tell ya what it looks like to me, LM; The reason the verge isn't square to the EW is that someone probably adjusted drop by bending the pin that holds the verge saddle. If it'll withstand bending and it probably will - I'd bend that pin straight so teeth hit pallets squarely. Now you will of course have to reset the drop but do it properly from that dogbone looking bushing support. That dogleg moves under considerable friction to adjust drop. While we're talking "drop" - at the position pictured it looks like the verge may be too close to the EW. If it were too close, occasionally a tooth may not release and of course that WILL stop the clock. Also a few of the EW teeth don't look to cheery either. You may be dressing some EW teeth too.

 

[Lloyd M]

Looks like I will have my work to do on this one. Guess that is where the fun comes from. I did burnish the pivots as much as I could to get them smoothed.

 

[Tom Kloss]

The movements in sorry shape all around. Yes the verge hitting the escape wheel teeth is a real show stopper. As Harold has pointed out, the trundles in the escape wheel lantern pinion are in very bad shape and must be replaced. For some reason the main drive wheel on these New Haven time only movements take a real beating. Personally I think the stock they used for the wheel is too thin. One thing I would do is reverse the drive wheel on the spring arbor. The escape wheel teeth look to be beaten also, probably from the escape wheel pivot wear and the lantern pinion condition. It needs a lot of pivot work.

Tom

"Sometimes you really don't know if your being rewarded or punished"

 

[Dick Feldman]

Lloyd,
Most times, for a beginning, the bushing assortments offered by the material suppliers are a good deal. If I am not mistaken, there should be an assortment for American clocks. This will likely cover all of the bushing sizes needed except for the winding arbors. No need to buy a bushing machine to install bushings, either. Many repair people will ream bushing holes with a hand tool and set the bushing with a small hammer. If you do not have a mentor to teach you how to install bushings, you probably will have to resort to the books. Check out your local library for clock repair books. If you want to know which books give the best explanations, let me know and I will do some research.
My compliments to you for the good photos provided.
Your movement will need a considerable amount of repair to make it dependable, but it is not an impossible task. Don't be overwhelmed and take it one step at a time.
To release the wheel that is peened, you may have to do some fancy filing with a needle file to release it. To reattach it you will probably have to peen it. The individual trundles (wires) should be able to be replaced in the escape wheel pinion. No need to replace the whole thing. One of the "books" should give a pretty good explanation of how to replace these. Hard wire should be available from the materials suppliers. Once the clock plates are separated, you should be able to wiggle the escape wheel free. If not, you may have to slightly bend the front bridge to get it out.
Always remember that the upper wheels in a movement are the ones getting the least amount of power and are most susceptible to wear.
Best of luck,
Dick

 

[bangster]

Replacing the trundles in a lantern pinion is a piece o' cake. Heck, even Scottie can do it.

Do a Find (button at top of page) on "lantern pinion repair" and you'll get a ton of advice.

bangster

 

[shutterbug]

You are getting tons of good advise, and all of it is worthy of attention. Personally, I would do one thing at a time. If you change everything suggested, you won't learn much about what actually stopped your clock. My starting point would be the escape wheel. The teeth can be straightened relatively easily (use the find feature to learn how) and my guess is that that will solve the problem. However, the other suggested work should also be done if you are planning on selling this clock or are fixing it as a service. If you are keeping it, then it's up to you

 

[Scottie-TX]

AHEM! My pinions don't have trundels. MY pinions have LEAVES. Just a reminder to me as to why I seldom work on these except as a favor.

 

[Tom Kloss]

Scottie:

"Picky, picky" :redface:

 

[Tom Kloss]

Loyd
I didn't mean to discourage you however, this movement seems to have a lot of problems.
IMHO I would start with the escape wheel lantern pinion trundle problem. Until their good you will not have, consistent escape wheel drive power and you'll be spinning your wheels. No pun intended. As far as technique is concerned do some reading on basic clock repair. There are some good books on basics. Steve Conover has some good ones. By the way, I agree with Scottie about the verge being a an angle.

Tom

"Sometimes you really don't know if your being rewarded or punished"

 

[Lloyd M]

Thanks for all the info, I will start with the lantern pinion repair (lots of good info in the "find" search, and escape wheel teeth straightening. This is a friends clock, so is worth doing it right.

 

[bangster]

Interesting things I've learnt:
The round things with holes that hold the trundles in a lantern pinion are sometimes called "bobbins". They are also called "trundleheads".
Trundles are never called "trunnions". Trunnions are those knobs on the sides of a cannon that serve as pivots for rocking it up and down.
"Trundle" can also mean a small roller or wheel.
Lantern pinions/wheels, also called "trundle pinions/wheels", are ALSO called "wallowers".

Inquiring minds need to know these things.

bangster

 

[Dick Feldman]

OK Bangster,
Here is another bit of fact. There once was a guy named Ives that revolutionized clock construction by inventing "rolling pinions." These were, in effect a pinion with wires, but the wires had something that looked like tubing around them. The tubing piece would roll with contact to the adjoining wheel tooth. If ever you hear someone refer to an "Ives Clock," that is why.
So much for pinion knowledge, huh?
D

 

[Mike Phelan]

Originally posted by bangster:
Interesting things I've learnt:
The round things with holes that hold the trundles in a lantern pinion are sometimes called "bobbins". They are also called "trundleheads".

The usual term I have grown up with is shrouds.

 

[Scottie-TX]

"SHROUD": I believe you may have had a sheltered childhood.

 

[Bryan Prindle]

Lloyd, Man everywhere you look on that clock you see hard wear. Let’s start on the front, the bushing on the EW are ovaled and the EW has shifted to the right, and the verge is also all out of whack, not even close to be parallel to the plate, probably more bushing and pivot wear and with some adjustment needed. The mainspring wheel has severe wear on the clockwise side of the teeth. The trundles in the lantern pinion on the EW are toast. On the back side to my viewing most of the bushing on the pivots are also shot.

This clock reminds me of the Gilbert I did 6 or 7 months ago. Before I was finished I had put 15 bushing in it, polished the pivots, did adjustments too numerous to mention, replaced the mainspring and replaced the helper springs.

But you know now, that clock runs and sounds great now.

This looks like a good clock to learn on, doesn’t look too complicated. That clock need to come apart and a complete overhaul done on it, but you can do it.

BTW, great support pictures.

Bryan

 

[Lloyd M]

Just an update on the repair--
I thought that I would take Shutterbug's advice and do one thing at a time to see it I could learn more about what was stopping the movement. So I decided to repair the lantern pinions first. I make a Trundle crimper like Jerry Keiffer discribed and it works very well. I used Doug's suggestion of the #19 nails for the wires, and my dikes to cut out the old ones. That went very well, and the trundles appear to be very secure after crimping in shroud.
I then cleaned up the escape wheel teeth with a flat tweezers, and straightened the verge. ( I replaced the verge since the crutch wire was worn off at the pendulum wire).
After assembly and a few adjustments, it has been running for several hours.
I will look at flipping the drive wheel yet. Wanted to see if this got it running.
You guys are a wealth of info, keep it up.
Lloyd

 

[Mike Phelan]

Originally posted by Scottie-TX:
"SHROUD": I believe you may have had a sheltered childhood.

You'd be amazed, Scottie!
Oh well - cannot stop chatting here - have to be in my coffin before dawn.