Bushing Question

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Chris M., Feb 9, 2019 at 5:23 PM.

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  1. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Happy Saturday NAWCC Community:

    Cleaning a really dirty old movement and a lot of the pivot holes have significant wear so bushing many. I have run into a couple of questions while working on this movement. 1) one of the pivot holes is really close to the edge of the cast brass of the plate, so I am worried about filing, broaching and reaming because I think I will breach the edge of the plate in the process. So what is the best course of action? I guess I will just leave the pivot hole as is? 2) Do you/should you re-bush the pivot holes in the verge retainers? It's a really small piece of metal - both front and back - and not sure how to hold it perpendicular to bush. Leave it alone? See photos. Thank you for all of your help with my rookie questions. Chris

    Rauschmove1.JPG Rauschmove2.JPG Rauschmove3.JPG Rauschmove4.JPG Rauschmove5.JPG Rauschmove6.JPG
     
  2. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I would not fill and broach a worn pivot hole near the edge because the plug will bo only slightly larger than the pivot leaving a very thin wall of new metal. I would select the largest bushing that would not breach plate wall and broach the opening to fit the pivot. As for the small brackets, if the holes are worn enough to require attention I would either bush or just make a new bracket with the correct size pivot hole.

    RC
     
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  3. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    I agree with what RC said. But I'd probably not attempt making a new bracket. Easier to bush the old one. Get inventive about how to make a vertical hole. You'll come up with something that will work.
     
  4. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    For small parts like that when bushing is needed, I use a small vise and the drill press bushing adapter.

    Vise.JPG Vise2.JPG
     
  5. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    I dont believe that there is a KMR bushing that will not breach the edge of the plate during an install, so for the pivot hole that is really close to the edge of the plate, I think I am going to have to let it go. Good tip on the vise. I have a D-vise that should work for that.

    Off topic: is the fan supposed to slip on its arbor? If yes, how tight should it be and how much should it slip? Tricks to tighten? Thanks, Chris
     
  6. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    it has to slip some. you should be able to move it with finger pressure, but it should not spin at all on its own. adjusting the spring tension depends on how it is made. Usually you remove the arbor and work the flex spring a bit tighter till you get it right. there should be no oil or lubricant on the arbor. and over oiling the fan pivot holes can lead to oil migrating through capillary action down to the where it makes the fan slip too much
     
  7. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    Chris
    While each of the two items you have questions on require a little extra attention, personally, they are of no issue since I started using a small milling machine for bushing.

    Bushing the Plate

    You are correct in that the stress of using a bushing reamer next to the edge of a plate can easily push the side of the out and damage it. My most common method of dealing with this is as follows.

    (1) I first mount the movement plates in the movement holder (Designed for the job) mounted in the Mill. I then locate the original pivot hole location utilizing a pivot size gage pin mounted in the Mill spindle. "X" and "Y" hand wheel settings are then recorded for relocation to this position when needed.

    (2) Next, a desired size center cutting endmill is selected and positioned per the attached sketch, and the hole is machined in the plate for installation of a bushing plug.
    When utilizing a Endmill for this operation, there is no outward stress on the edge of the plate or risk of damage when the "X" and "Y" axis are locked in place. Unless of course you are using a movement plate mounting system that is not rigid or designed to be used in a Mill.

    (3) From this point, the "X" and "Y" axis slides are returned to the original location recorded in step one and the pivot hole is spot drilled/drilled also per the attached sketch.

    Bushing the small Verge retainer

    (1) The piece is mounted in a small vise mounted on the mill and the bushing hole is reamed in the normal manner.

    (2) I then lightly chamfer the edge of both the front and back of the bushing hole and install a slightly thicker bushing than is required.

    (3) Both front and back of the edge of the bushing are lightly peened over and dressed flush with a Bulls foot File again top and bottom.

    Jerry Kieffer

    fullsizeoutput_354.jpeg
     
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  8. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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  9. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Thank you for that detailed response. Chris
     
  10. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    I decided to finish the cleaning and bushing with the tools and supplies at my disposal and I have since reassembled the movement. It seems to be running well, but I will need to do some more testing before I reinstall in the case. My current problem is that I believe that the minute hand will not strike straight up and down and that the "J-wire" will need to be adjusted, which I have had to do on several clocks using the tutorial in the NAWCC library. Unfortunately, this is not the typical J-wire set-up that I have seen on these types of movements in the past. Does anyone have experience with this type of J-wire set-up and how to adjust to get the movement to strike straight up and straight down? Thank you for your help! Chris

    Rauschmove7.JPG Rauschmove8.JPG Rauschmove9.JPG Rauschmove10.JPG Rauschmove11.JPG
     
  11. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    There is no J-wire in this movement. The strike is triggered by a pin (or two pins) on the back of the minute canon wheel. The position of these pins in relation to the hand seems to be slightly incorrect. Does the minute hand have a bushing? If it does, the bushing can be moved a bit by inserting a square needle file and turning it while holding the hand. Be cautious not to bend or break the hand in this process. If the hand doesn't have a bushing it helps sometimes to turn the minute hand around (upside down).

    Uhralt
     
  12. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    That appears to be using a non-moving pin which supports both the hour and minute hand parts. The tension against the minute hand is from friction. If the tension is not high enough, the minute hand might be delayed in triggering the strike. Could we see that part assembled?
     
  13. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    The motion work is not assembled in these pictures. The clutch will actually be mounted on the long arbor of the main wheel and the motion work gear on top of the clutch. The tension is produced there. Both the minute hand canon and the hour hand canon should move without friction on the stationary post.

    Uhralt
     
  14. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    The red arrow points to what I think he is calling the "J" wire - the blue arrow points to the pin that triggers the strikes.
    I think his question is whether it is possible to adjust when the pin lifts sufficiently to trigger the strike versus the minute hand? Perhaps that is not how to do it, but I think that is his question.

    Rauschmove7.JPG
     
  15. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Bending this wire would only affect the time point when the clock goes into warning. The strike is released when the lever that is lifted by a pin on the minute wheel falls down. This depends only on the location of the pin on the minute wheel in relation to the hand mounted on it.

    Uhralt
     
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  16. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    And if I am understanding the rest of the discussion, the pin on the minute wheel that lifts the lever cannot be adjusted relative to the mounting for the minute hand.
    So the best solution is to put a bushing in the minute hand and use that to align the minute hand to the strike?
     
  17. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    That would be preferable. One could also be tempted to bend the pin on the back of the minute wheel but I wouldn't recommend that. These pins tend to break easily.

    Uhralt
     
  18. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I have also soldered a brass washer to the back of the minute hand with just a small hole in it - then carefully filed the properly aligned hole to get it to strike at 12.
    This is not as good a solution, but may be easier than finding and installing an adjustable bushing.
     
  19. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    The strike triggering device on the front of the movement functions as a J-wire, that's why I was calling it a "J-wire". It is a cast brass pin that rises and falls on the minute hand arbor cam just like other movements of this era that have an actual J-wire. It drops off of the cam which initiates the strike, releasing the warning pin from the warning lock lever. Just like with a J-wire, it can drop off of the cam early or late, determining the position of the minute hand when the clock strikes. With a J-wire, it can be bent to keep it on the cam longer or shorter to get the clock to strike sooner or later. With this movement, I'm not sure how to adjust this mechanism to produce the same effect as bending a J-wire. I tried bending the cam pins on the back of the minute hand tube to try to affect the timing of the strike - it didn't help. I decided to post this question to see if the NAWCC clock repair community would have any suggestions, before I did something that would live to regret! I have attached photos of the movement fully assembled. Thanks. Chris

    Rauschmove12.JPG Rauschmove13.JPG Rauschmove14.JPG Rauschmove15.JPG Rauschmove16.JPG Rauschmove17.JPG Rauschmove18.JPG Rauschmove19.JPG
     
  20. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    The reason the square minute hand shaft is threaded is because the minute hand gets sandwiched between a back nut and a round shoulder washer with a square hole that makes the washer turn with the minute hand shaft, and a front nut that gets tightened against the minute hand to keep it snug to the shoulder washer. The center of your minute hand should have a large round hole that fits onto the shoulder washer. A third nut then goes onto the smaller threaded post to hold it all in place. You adjust the minute hand to point to twelve on the strike by turning the hand on the shoulder washer then tightening its nut. I suspect you do not have the correct minute hand with the shoulder washer and nuts. As has been mentioned, bending the pins or wires will not do what you need to do.
     
  21. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    A close picture of your minute hand could help.

    Uhralt
     
  22. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Here are some pictures of the bushing (shoulder washer) that the minute hand fits onto. I don't have either of the nuts for the assembly.
    I am not sure where I got them, but I have a bag of about a dozen marked "S LaRose". Mine fit a 2.6mm square shaft.
    If that fits your clock I will be glad to send you one. Finding suitable nuts for the hand shaft should not be too hard. I think Blackforestimports and timesavers may have them. They also have the hands to fit in different lengths.

    I forgot to mention that the back nut for the minute hand cannot be tightened against the hour cannon or it will stall the clock. So you carefully position the back nut, bushing and front nut to allow the hour to turn without obstruction. Also the nut that goes on the post cannot be tight against the minute or it will stall. In addition to the two nuts and the bushing I have also seen a spring washer with a square hole on the front of the minute hand behind the front nut to give a tight compression fit.

    CCbush.JPG CCBush2.JPG CCbush3.JPG
     
  23. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    The hands are bone with a square hole filed into the minute hand and a round hole filed into the hour hand. This is the typical set-up I see in these antique cuckoo clocks. In my experience, the more modern clocks have a bushing in a plastic hand. I will adjust the minute hand by filing it to allow straight up and down strikes. Thanks for all of the help. Chris
     
  24. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I might have missed it but how much is the drop point off and in which direction?
    Willie X
     
  25. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Watching the square minute arbor, it appears to strike slightly early. I have not attached the hands yet because I will have to file them to fit the hands to the arbor and I like to do that once the movement is in the case and I did not want to have to uninstall the movement to make an adjustment to the movement if that was the best fix. If I am just adjusting the hands themselves, then it won't matter. I will install the movement next and then file the hands so the strike is straight up. Thanks, Chris
     
  26. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    You can't file the hand without making it loose. It's supposed to be a snug fit on the square. It shouldn't be a problem adjusting the drop off point with the clock out of the case. To do so hold the little wire loop, to the right of the handshaft, with keen nose pliers near its arbor and bend the loop part slightly upward.

    "Slightly early", I would leave it alone.

    Willie X
     
  27. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    First, thanks for the suggestion on how to adjust by bending the loop. I will try this if I need to. Second, I want to tell you my process for adjusting a minute hand by filing: I file with a square file so that the hand is straight up at strike. Then I "build up" the edge of the hole on the appropriate edge to take up the slack created by filing with a thick CA adhesive. I let the adhesive fully cure and then file some more as needed to achieve the correct fit and the correct hand position when striking. The CA adhesive is the key to success with this method. Thanks again, Chris
     
  28. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I don't think it is supposed to be a snug fit on a threaded square
     
  29. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    As discussed above this movement doesn't have the classical J-wire that can be easily bent. It is a flat steel lever. See post 11 and following.

    Uhralt
     
  30. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I see I made a typo - it should have been "on this threaded square"

    I have worked on only three of these, I am sure others have seen many of them, and I am wondering if it is correct to bend the two pins a bit to align the minute hand if the hand is off just a little and is fitted directly to the square instead of in a bushing?
     
  31. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    Chris, as you know, the hands can be subjected to quite a lot of force. If you do go the filing route, you may be able to use a strong epoxy glue to fasten a flattened metal hand washer with an appropriately sized square hole in the adjusted position. With fully cured epoxy, this should be stronger than a glue build-up as described...(if I understand what you're proposing to do). Good luck with it.
    Bruce
     
  32. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    It is possible but not recommended because these pins break off easily.

    Uhralt
     
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