Bushing Question

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Chris M., Feb 9, 2019.

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  1. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Happy Saturday NAWCC Community:

    Cleaning a really dirty old movement and a lot of the pivot holes have significant wear so bushing many. I have run into a couple of questions while working on this movement. 1) one of the pivot holes is really close to the edge of the cast brass of the plate, so I am worried about filing, broaching and reaming because I think I will breach the edge of the plate in the process. So what is the best course of action? I guess I will just leave the pivot hole as is? 2) Do you/should you re-bush the pivot holes in the verge retainers? It's a really small piece of metal - both front and back - and not sure how to hold it perpendicular to bush. Leave it alone? See photos. Thank you for all of your help with my rookie questions. Chris

    Rauschmove1.JPG Rauschmove2.JPG Rauschmove3.JPG Rauschmove4.JPG Rauschmove5.JPG Rauschmove6.JPG
     
  2. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I would not fill and broach a worn pivot hole near the edge because the plug will bo only slightly larger than the pivot leaving a very thin wall of new metal. I would select the largest bushing that would not breach plate wall and broach the opening to fit the pivot. As for the small brackets, if the holes are worn enough to require attention I would either bush or just make a new bracket with the correct size pivot hole.

    RC
     
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  3. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I agree with what RC said. But I'd probably not attempt making a new bracket. Easier to bush the old one. Get inventive about how to make a vertical hole. You'll come up with something that will work.
     
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  4. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    For small parts like that when bushing is needed, I use a small vise and the drill press bushing adapter.

    Vise.JPG Vise2.JPG
     
  5. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    I dont believe that there is a KMR bushing that will not breach the edge of the plate during an install, so for the pivot hole that is really close to the edge of the plate, I think I am going to have to let it go. Good tip on the vise. I have a D-vise that should work for that.

    Off topic: is the fan supposed to slip on its arbor? If yes, how tight should it be and how much should it slip? Tricks to tighten? Thanks, Chris
     
  6. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    it has to slip some. you should be able to move it with finger pressure, but it should not spin at all on its own. adjusting the spring tension depends on how it is made. Usually you remove the arbor and work the flex spring a bit tighter till you get it right. there should be no oil or lubricant on the arbor. and over oiling the fan pivot holes can lead to oil migrating through capillary action down to the where it makes the fan slip too much
     
  7. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    Chris
    While each of the two items you have questions on require a little extra attention, personally, they are of no issue since I started using a small milling machine for bushing.

    Bushing the Plate

    You are correct in that the stress of using a bushing reamer next to the edge of a plate can easily push the side of the out and damage it. My most common method of dealing with this is as follows.

    (1) I first mount the movement plates in the movement holder (Designed for the job) mounted in the Mill. I then locate the original pivot hole location utilizing a pivot size gage pin mounted in the Mill spindle. "X" and "Y" hand wheel settings are then recorded for relocation to this position when needed.

    (2) Next, a desired size center cutting endmill is selected and positioned per the attached sketch, and the hole is machined in the plate for installation of a bushing plug.
    When utilizing a Endmill for this operation, there is no outward stress on the edge of the plate or risk of damage when the "X" and "Y" axis are locked in place. Unless of course you are using a movement plate mounting system that is not rigid or designed to be used in a Mill.

    (3) From this point, the "X" and "Y" axis slides are returned to the original location recorded in step one and the pivot hole is spot drilled/drilled also per the attached sketch.

    Bushing the small Verge retainer

    (1) The piece is mounted in a small vise mounted on the mill and the bushing hole is reamed in the normal manner.

    (2) I then lightly chamfer the edge of both the front and back of the bushing hole and install a slightly thicker bushing than is required.

    (3) Both front and back of the edge of the bushing are lightly peened over and dressed flush with a Bulls foot File again top and bottom.

    Jerry Kieffer

    fullsizeoutput_354.jpeg
     
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  8. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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  9. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Thank you for that detailed response. Chris
     
  10. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    I decided to finish the cleaning and bushing with the tools and supplies at my disposal and I have since reassembled the movement. It seems to be running well, but I will need to do some more testing before I reinstall in the case. My current problem is that I believe that the minute hand will not strike straight up and down and that the "J-wire" will need to be adjusted, which I have had to do on several clocks using the tutorial in the NAWCC library. Unfortunately, this is not the typical J-wire set-up that I have seen on these types of movements in the past. Does anyone have experience with this type of J-wire set-up and how to adjust to get the movement to strike straight up and straight down? Thank you for your help! Chris

    Rauschmove7.JPG Rauschmove8.JPG Rauschmove9.JPG Rauschmove10.JPG Rauschmove11.JPG
     
  11. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    There is no J-wire in this movement. The strike is triggered by a pin (or two pins) on the back of the minute canon wheel. The position of these pins in relation to the hand seems to be slightly incorrect. Does the minute hand have a bushing? If it does, the bushing can be moved a bit by inserting a square needle file and turning it while holding the hand. Be cautious not to bend or break the hand in this process. If the hand doesn't have a bushing it helps sometimes to turn the minute hand around (upside down).

    Uhralt
     
  12. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    That appears to be using a non-moving pin which supports both the hour and minute hand parts. The tension against the minute hand is from friction. If the tension is not high enough, the minute hand might be delayed in triggering the strike. Could we see that part assembled?
     
  13. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    The motion work is not assembled in these pictures. The clutch will actually be mounted on the long arbor of the main wheel and the motion work gear on top of the clutch. The tension is produced there. Both the minute hand canon and the hour hand canon should move without friction on the stationary post.

    Uhralt
     
  14. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    The red arrow points to what I think he is calling the "J" wire - the blue arrow points to the pin that triggers the strikes.
    I think his question is whether it is possible to adjust when the pin lifts sufficiently to trigger the strike versus the minute hand? Perhaps that is not how to do it, but I think that is his question.

    Rauschmove7.JPG
     
  15. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Bending this wire would only affect the time point when the clock goes into warning. The strike is released when the lever that is lifted by a pin on the minute wheel falls down. This depends only on the location of the pin on the minute wheel in relation to the hand mounted on it.

    Uhralt
     
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  16. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    And if I am understanding the rest of the discussion, the pin on the minute wheel that lifts the lever cannot be adjusted relative to the mounting for the minute hand.
    So the best solution is to put a bushing in the minute hand and use that to align the minute hand to the strike?
     
  17. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    That would be preferable. One could also be tempted to bend the pin on the back of the minute wheel but I wouldn't recommend that. These pins tend to break easily.

    Uhralt
     
  18. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I have also soldered a brass washer to the back of the minute hand with just a small hole in it - then carefully filed the properly aligned hole to get it to strike at 12.
    This is not as good a solution, but may be easier than finding and installing an adjustable bushing.
     
  19. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    The strike triggering device on the front of the movement functions as a J-wire, that's why I was calling it a "J-wire". It is a cast brass pin that rises and falls on the minute hand arbor cam just like other movements of this era that have an actual J-wire. It drops off of the cam which initiates the strike, releasing the warning pin from the warning lock lever. Just like with a J-wire, it can drop off of the cam early or late, determining the position of the minute hand when the clock strikes. With a J-wire, it can be bent to keep it on the cam longer or shorter to get the clock to strike sooner or later. With this movement, I'm not sure how to adjust this mechanism to produce the same effect as bending a J-wire. I tried bending the cam pins on the back of the minute hand tube to try to affect the timing of the strike - it didn't help. I decided to post this question to see if the NAWCC clock repair community would have any suggestions, before I did something that would live to regret! I have attached photos of the movement fully assembled. Thanks. Chris

    Rauschmove12.JPG Rauschmove13.JPG Rauschmove14.JPG Rauschmove15.JPG Rauschmove16.JPG Rauschmove17.JPG Rauschmove18.JPG Rauschmove19.JPG
     
  20. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    The reason the square minute hand shaft is threaded is because the minute hand gets sandwiched between a back nut and a round shoulder washer with a square hole that makes the washer turn with the minute hand shaft, and a front nut that gets tightened against the minute hand to keep it snug to the shoulder washer. The center of your minute hand should have a large round hole that fits onto the shoulder washer. A third nut then goes onto the smaller threaded post to hold it all in place. You adjust the minute hand to point to twelve on the strike by turning the hand on the shoulder washer then tightening its nut. I suspect you do not have the correct minute hand with the shoulder washer and nuts. As has been mentioned, bending the pins or wires will not do what you need to do.
     
  21. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    A close picture of your minute hand could help.

    Uhralt
     
  22. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Here are some pictures of the bushing (shoulder washer) that the minute hand fits onto. I don't have either of the nuts for the assembly.
    I am not sure where I got them, but I have a bag of about a dozen marked "S LaRose". Mine fit a 2.6mm square shaft.
    If that fits your clock I will be glad to send you one. Finding suitable nuts for the hand shaft should not be too hard. I think Blackforestimports and timesavers may have them. They also have the hands to fit in different lengths.

    I forgot to mention that the back nut for the minute hand cannot be tightened against the hour cannon or it will stall the clock. So you carefully position the back nut, bushing and front nut to allow the hour to turn without obstruction. Also the nut that goes on the post cannot be tight against the minute or it will stall. In addition to the two nuts and the bushing I have also seen a spring washer with a square hole on the front of the minute hand behind the front nut to give a tight compression fit.

    CCbush.JPG CCBush2.JPG CCbush3.JPG
     
  23. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    The hands are bone with a square hole filed into the minute hand and a round hole filed into the hour hand. This is the typical set-up I see in these antique cuckoo clocks. In my experience, the more modern clocks have a bushing in a plastic hand. I will adjust the minute hand by filing it to allow straight up and down strikes. Thanks for all of the help. Chris
     
  24. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I might have missed it but how much is the drop point off and in which direction?
    Willie X
     
  25. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Watching the square minute arbor, it appears to strike slightly early. I have not attached the hands yet because I will have to file them to fit the hands to the arbor and I like to do that once the movement is in the case and I did not want to have to uninstall the movement to make an adjustment to the movement if that was the best fix. If I am just adjusting the hands themselves, then it won't matter. I will install the movement next and then file the hands so the strike is straight up. Thanks, Chris
     
  26. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    You can't file the hand without making it loose. It's supposed to be a snug fit on the square. It shouldn't be a problem adjusting the drop off point with the clock out of the case. To do so hold the little wire loop, to the right of the handshaft, with keen nose pliers near its arbor and bend the loop part slightly upward.

    "Slightly early", I would leave it alone.

    Willie X
     
  27. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    First, thanks for the suggestion on how to adjust by bending the loop. I will try this if I need to. Second, I want to tell you my process for adjusting a minute hand by filing: I file with a square file so that the hand is straight up at strike. Then I "build up" the edge of the hole on the appropriate edge to take up the slack created by filing with a thick CA adhesive. I let the adhesive fully cure and then file some more as needed to achieve the correct fit and the correct hand position when striking. The CA adhesive is the key to success with this method. Thanks again, Chris
     
  28. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I don't think it is supposed to be a snug fit on a threaded square
     
  29. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    As discussed above this movement doesn't have the classical J-wire that can be easily bent. It is a flat steel lever. See post 11 and following.

    Uhralt
     
  30. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I see I made a typo - it should have been "on this threaded square"

    I have worked on only three of these, I am sure others have seen many of them, and I am wondering if it is correct to bend the two pins a bit to align the minute hand if the hand is off just a little and is fitted directly to the square instead of in a bushing?
     
  31. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Chris, as you know, the hands can be subjected to quite a lot of force. If you do go the filing route, you may be able to use a strong epoxy glue to fasten a flattened metal hand washer with an appropriately sized square hole in the adjusted position. With fully cured epoxy, this should be stronger than a glue build-up as described...(if I understand what you're proposing to do). Good luck with it.
    Bruce
     
  32. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    It is possible but not recommended because these pins break off easily.

    Uhralt
     
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  33. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    I started the process of testing the movement tonight. Installed the chains and hung the movement on the test stand. The strike side is working really well, so no problems there (yet). The time side is not running. The verge and crutch were ticking very erratically - speeding up and slowing down and would periodically stop completely. I noticed that the verge retainers were bent some so I decided to remove them and straighten them a bit to see if that would fix the problem. Same for the crutch - very bent and misshapen - straightened it too. Reinstalled the verge and crutch... Now it doesn't run at all - oops! As they say: "better is the enemy of good". Now that I've made matters worse, does anyone have suggestions on how to repair an escapement that doesn't function properly or consistently? Do I try replacing the verge and crutch from another similar movement or will that change how the movement functions? Looking at similar movements, the verges and the crutches are very different in appearance. Will changing out the verge change the size of weights needed to drive the movement? As always, thank you for your help and experience. Chris

    Rauschmove20.JPG Rauschmove21.JPG Rauschmove22.JPG Rauschmove23.JPG Rauschmove24.JPG Rauschmove25.JPG Rauschmove26.JPG
     
  34. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    If you could remove both the verge and the escape wheel and position them in the correct orientation to eash other as in the clock, a photo of that would help a lot. Modeling clay, or styrofoam, can be your friend for a photo like this ...
    Willie X
     
  35. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    If you straightened out the crutch a bit then most likely the clock is now out of beat. If you removed the verge and straightened out the retainers then you also shifted the alignment of the pivot holes in the retainers - that is, a straight line through one retainer should point directly at the other, otherwise the pivots on the verge may be pinched. Make sure there is a little side to side "end shake" for the verge and make sure it hangs straight down by its own weight as you tilt the movement side to side. Having removed the verge retainers, you now need to reset the depth of the verge to the escape wheel. The slightest change can make a huge difference. The first step is to position the verge closer and closer until the escapement will not release teeth or the verge binds on a tooth, then back off a hair until the escapement works when the crutch is moved side to side by hand. Then check the drops - simply put the escape wheel turns the same amount on the tick and on the tock. Another way to look at it is that when a tooth drops off the entry pallet it falls the same distance as when a tooth falls off the exit pallet. You may need to make a fine adjustment to get the drops close to even. Then with the movement level and the pendulum attached, bend the crutch such that the pendulum moves the same distance off the center resting position to the right and to the left before the escapement releases a tooth. That should put it close enough to being in beat that it should run. Tilt the movement side to side as it is running until the beat is even and see how it runs, let us know how much total pendulum swing you have. The erratic stopping can be due to a multitude of issues but you need to first make sure the escapement is functioning properly and that it is "in beat". Swapping verges from other clocks is usually asking for trouble. Unless you verge is very badly worn or damaged there should.be no reason to replace it.

    RC
     
  36. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Could we see a close up of the verge? It looks almost like it's a dead beat pallet verge instead of a recoil. I've never seen a dead beat in a cuckoo clock.
     
  37. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    Ok, I will work on this as soon as I get a break from work and other responsibilities and report back. I will take the verge out and send a close up photo of it and post it here. Even when I move the crutch back and forth manually, it does not advance the escape wheel. The escape wheel just pivots back and forth - it doesn't rotate. It's like the palates are bent or not aligned with the teeth.

    I can take the escape wheel and verge out and stick their pivots in styrofoam but I don't think I can get the spacing perfect as they are in the movement to demonstrate the actual. Thanks, Chris
     
  38. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    A couple of questions: when you are adjusting the verge retainers up or down, they don't seem to move much up or down with the screw loosened that I can see. Is that normal? It seems like when I tighten the screw it just goes back to where it was - i.e. the act of tightening the screw positions the retainers back in the original position. Also, are you adjusting the front retainer or the back retainer or both. If singly or both, what order and which one? Currently the verge pivots do not seem to be binding and the crutch swings freely. The verge just doesn't seem to advance the escape wheel or vise versa. I must have changed the alignment of the pallets with the escape wheel teeth when I bent the verge retainers. Also, moving the retainers up or down doesn't change whether the escapement functions or not at this point. Thanks again. Chris
     
  39. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Is it possible that you mixed up the two retainers during assembly? It seems on the 5th picture that the arbor of the verge is misaligned (not perpendicular to the plates) and almost touching the front plate.

    Uhralt
     
  40. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    The retainer for the back plate has the post for hanging the pendulum attached, so it would be hard to mix up the two, so no. I agree though about the verge and crutch along with the retainers. They are all really wonky in appearance. That's why I tried to straighten (which ended up making matters worse). When I first looked at this movement before cleaning, the verge and crutch would beat erratically with thumb pressure on the time side chain wheel. At the time I was hoping that cleaning and bushing worn pivot holes would fix the problem - it didn't. Now Ive got a really clean movement that won't beat! Thanks, Chris
     
  41. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    RC mentioned it already: Is there end shake on the verge arbor? By straightening the retainers end shake might have been removed. I also see that the crutch loop for the pendulum is turned about 90 degrees to the side. The pendulum (or the leader if there is a leader) should be pushed between the narrow sides of the crutch loop, not the wide side. Can you show a picture of the pendulum and the leader if applicable?

    Uhralt
     
  42. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    It isn't really clear in the pictures if this is a recoil escapement (typical for cuckoo clocks) or a strip deadbeat escapement. A picture of the verge out of the movement and/or a picture indicating whether the escape wheel rotates clockwise or counter clockwise in that view would help.

    With either type of escapement, if it would "free run" with hand pressure before you worked on it, but now it will no longer release escape wheel teeth as you move the crutch back and forth then (unless you messed with spacing between the entrance pallet and exit pallet) the reason that the escapement does not function now is because the distance between the escape wheel and the verge has changed. There are really only two possibilities;
    1) the position of the escape wheel has moved because a bushing was installed and not centered over the original pivot hole, or.....
    2) the position of the verge has changed because the support brackets are no longer in the same place.
    I would start by loosening slightly the verge support brackets and force both brackets to the limit away from the escape wheel - do not tighten the screw. Will the escapement now release teeth as the crutch is moved back and forth and/or does the escape wheel spin free when the verge is on dead center? If so, then you potentially have the range of adjustment required to setup the escapement, I suggest you try a thin washer under the bracket screw heads to help prevent the brackets from moving as the screws are tightened. If you cannot get a functional range of adjustment even with the brackets at the limit, did you bush either of the escape wheel pivot holes?

    RC
     
  43. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    The escape wheel rotates clockwise when viewed from the back side of the movement
    There is end shake of the verge arbor.
    I have not yet attached the pendulum or the leader because the crutch didn't swing on its own.

    The verge ran the same after cleaning and bushing as it did beforehand. It stopped running altogether when I tried bending the retainers and the crutch to improve how it was running. It was running erratically and unevenly and it would stop running periodically.

    I did bush one of the pivot holes on the back plate. I did not bush the front plate escape wheel pivot hole.

    I will try to adjust the verge all of the way up away from the escape wheel and see if I can get it to release. Thank you. Chris

    Rauschverge1.JPG Rauschverge2.JPG Rauschverge3.JPG Rauschverge4.JPG Rauschverge5.JPG Rauschverge6.JPG Rauschverge7.JPG
     
  44. Chris M.

    Chris M. Registered User
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    I reattached the verge and verge retainers and with the retainers adjusted all of the way up, it released a couple of teeth and then stopped. What if I file the hole in the retainers so they can swing up further? Thanks for your help. Chris

    Rauschverge8.JPG Rauschverge9.JPG
     
  45. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    It looks like a deadbeat verge and it looks like it was in a fire! The angle with regard to the crutch seems very narrow. Is it possible that straightening the crutch caused an extreme out of beat situation that cannot be overcome by tilting the movement? When you move the crutch manually, does the verge release the escape wheel on both sides? If only on one side, you have that situation and need to bend the crutch until the verge is able to release the EW on both sides.

    Uhralt
     
  46. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    That shouldn't be necessary because originally the clock ran with the retainer holes as they are.

    Uhralt
     
  47. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
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    The verge has the general shape of a deadbeat or half-deadbeat but it isn't clear in the pictures whether each end has a distinct impulse face and dead face. The picture copied below is looking from what I understand to be the back of the movement looking toward the escape wheel. If the escape wheel is truly turning clockwise in the direction of the arrow, then according to the shape of the teeth, it would seem to be turning backward in relation to the verge? Please confirm whether the EW rotates as shown in this picture. I'm wondering if there is a possibility that someone may have replaced the verge at some point.

    That aside, I agree that if it ran before it should not be necessary to extend the verge support brackets beyond their original range........ unless your escape wheel pivot bushing is way off center. With the weight attached (or hand power applied in the right direction), will the escapement release teeth and advance if you move the crutch by hand from as far as it will go left to as far as it will go right? If not, and if you didn't change the shape of the verge or the spacing between the pallets of the verge, then your EW bushing must be off center and you will need to correct that or enlarge the bracket screw holes to raise the verge. If the escape wheel does advance when the crutch is moved by hand, then very likely it is very badly out of beat. With the movement level and no power applied and the pendulum attached, mark the dead center resting position. Now bend the crutch so that (with power applied) when the crutch is slowly moved from left to right a tooth on the EW is released at the same distance each side of the marked resting position. Don't attempt to do this without the pendulum on because the crutch is not going to rest at the same place under its own weight.

    Whether the clock will "free run" without the pendulum attached is unimportant. Some clocks will and others won't. Any assessment of whether is will run or not needs to be with the pendulum in place.

    * If you are testing using hand power, make sure you are applying power in the same direction as weights would.
    * With a deadbeat / half-deadbeat it is essential that the EW teeth land on the dead face of the pallet and then shift onto the impulse face to transfer power to the pendulum. If the teeth land on the impulse face you will get recoil and inefficient and insufficient power to keep the clock running.

    RC

    Rauschverge8-x.jpg
     
  48. Chris D

    Chris D Registered User

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    I'm thinking that someone replaced it with the wrong verge also. I looked through my junk drawer and every movement has a verge like this.

    IMG_20190301_104904.jpg
     
    Chris M. likes this.
  49. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Something looks very odd about the verge and wheel interaction. As I stated before, if this is a dead beat cuckoo, it's the first one I've ever seen. The EW doesn't really have a dead beat look to it, and I'm leaning toward the idea that someone has replaced the verge with the wrong type, or that the exit pallet broke off and they tried to bend it to make it work. A video of it escaping would help us.
    I believe the wheel should be turning in the direction that RC diagrammed. If it isn't, then it might have been installed upside down. It's going to take awhile to discipher this one. For starters, both trains should wind in the same direction. If they don't, then perhaps the whole time train is assembled upside down. But then the hands would turn backward too. It's all quite mysterious.
    I see that Chris jumped in here too, while i was typing. Yes, the verge probably should look very similar to what he shows.
     
  50. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
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    Exactly. And if the fan won't tighten sufficiently with spring tension you can, with caution, roughen the arbor surface on which it wants to spin. Coarse abrasive will do it, and I just lately had to use a sort of knurling technique (pressing a diamond file into the arbor surface and rolling it) on a horrid cuckoo clock. If the fan is too tight it causes stress on the strike train, and if it's too loose the strike train will run too fast, which can cause a runaway strike train (the first sign of that is the 13th strike.)

    If the fan uses separate flat springs to provide tension, be careful with these: they're easy to lose and difficult to handle.

    M Kinsler
     

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