Bushing query please

[NEW65]

Hi Folks,

I recently ordered some needle files, broaches and a few other bits from Timesavers.

To be honest, this is the first chance I have had to look at what I bought despite having the goods for over 2 months now!

Anyway, the needles are labelled 3mm x 140mm x 12pc... and I received two packs the same an error on timesavers behalf. Problem seems to be that these files are not small enough to elongate the smaller pivot holes on the 0451 and 1151 movements.

I also ordered cutting broaches, a set 6 pieces 2.4mm to 6.20mm. These have plastic handles on. I bought the pin vice as well for the broaches.

Does the plastic handles need removing before locating in the pin vice??

Also I presume that needle files can be purchased in much smaller sizes? I haven't had time to check this out yet as been too busy.

Any advice will be gratefully received.

Cheers,

Simon

 

[dickstorer]

Why do you want to elongate the smaller holes on your clock movement?

 

[NEW65]

Thanks for your reply... i am looking to do an hermle 0451, it is badly worn on the strike side, especially on the rear plate. Bushings for 3rd, 4th and 5th gears (from flywheel). There is a lot of play here? I thought the idea was to file away the equivalent amount of wear in the opposite direction to aid in finding the new centre for the replacement bushing?

 

[shutterbug]

Thanks for your reply... i am looking to do an hermle 0451, it is badly worn on the strike side, especially on the rear plate. Bushings for 3rd, 4th and 5th gears (from flywheel). There is a lot of play here? I thought the idea was to file away the equivalent amount of wear in the opposite direction to aid in finding the new centre for the replacement bushing?

That's correct. A file, or anything that will have the same result is fine. Maybe some "filing" with a small drill bit would work, or a jewelers saw blade. The idea is to force the broach into the center of the elongated slot.

 

[Willie X]

You won't find any files that small. You will have to learn to nibble them over with a small bushing cutter.
Remember that the arbor/wheel parts have to be
replaced or repivoted if you want the job to last more than a year or two.
Willie X

 

[kinsler33]

I use Timesavers Item # 29069, which is a set of ten little pointy diamond files. They're small enough to get into any hole I've encountered thus far, and you really don't need to use a pin vise with them: just stick the point in the hole and file away. They eat brass rather quickly, so be careful. Page 123 in Catalog 41. Price: four bucks.

You won't need the pin vise for your cutting broaches if they've got plastic handles on them. Just twist them with the plastic handle.

M Kinsler
Lancaster, Ohio USA

 

[shimmystep]

Hi Folks,

I recently ordered some needle files, broaches and a few other bits from Timesavers.

To be honest, this is the first chance I have had to look at what I bought despite having the goods for over 2 months now!

Anyway, the needles are labelled 3mm x 140mm x 12pc... and I received two packs the same an error on timesavers behalf. Problem seems to be that these files are not small enough to elongate the smaller pivot holes on the 0451 and 1151 movements.

I also ordered cutting broaches, a set 6 pieces 2.4mm to 6.20mm. These have plastic handles on. I bought the pin vice as well for the broaches.

Does the plastic handles need removing before locating in the pin vice??

Also I presume that needle files can be purchased in much smaller sizes? I haven't had time to check this out yet as been too busy.

Any advice will be gratefully received.

Cheers,

Simon

The standard size needle files will not be very helpful in this operation in my view. Very thin 'rat tail' files can be bought that are considerably smaller. Quality ones are also expensive, but worth having, not just for bushing work. below is a good example.

http://www.cooksongold.com/Jeweller...-Needle-File-Extra-Slim-Cut-2-prcode-997-2836

Keeping the plastic handles on the cutting broaches will depend on a couple of things. It will depend on the quality of the cutting edges and the steel used. If they are not of a particularly high quality you will struggle to get good purchase and may find yourself not keeping the the broach at 90degs, and the bushing will be the same when inserted. A good quality sharp broach will be easier to keep at the correct angle and will cut with minimal torque. the difference between using an Asian or even cheaper European broach is very notable from that of the Bergeon broaches. A high quality broach will turn/cut easier and almost take itself into the hole.
You will find some brass softer/harder than others which will have a bearing on whether the handles are enough or not. The finish of the hole will be determined as to how efficiently they were cut, with out enough control and effective cutting you can be left with flat spots on the hole wall.

I think you'll come across one or other of the issues with the handles imho, and then remove them and use them in a vice. it will be more controlled in my view having used them before.

 

[Willie X]

Newo,
You would need a 'file' that measures .8 mm on the little end and 1 mm on the big end and a second one that was a tad larger These are usually about 1 1/2" long and classed as 'dental broaches', used mainly for root canal work. Ouch!
Much easier for me to use a 1.2 Bergeon cutter and do the cutting on just the unworn area, just as you would do with a file.
Willie X

 

[Convolve]

Thanks for your reply... i am looking to do an hermle 0451, it is badly worn on the strike side, especially on the rear plate. Bushings for 3rd, 4th and 5th gears (from flywheel). There is a lot of play here? I thought the idea was to file away the equivalent amount of wear in the opposite direction to aid in finding the new centre for the replacement bushing?[/QUOTE

A post hoc method to verify bushing centering is to use a "preacher"; a 3 pointed pin plate, one point self centers in the elongated plate hole and the device is lightly tapped, on the inner plate, 2 dimples will appear. After your bushing is installed, re locate the preacher using the 2 dimples for alignment. Now note that the center pin is actually centered in the bushing's hole. Youtube url https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rR-w4DAXJA

I started with the KWM reamers and bushings, the bushings were not tight enough in the hole, even though the holes measured the nominal reamer diameter. I turned down the reamers by about .005" for the nominal 4mm and less for the 2mm and 3mm reamers, the most common sizes that I use. The bushings now make a proper interference fit, they are now difficult to remove. No fun having a bushing pop out after the plates are assembled.
I mentioned my method to a veteran clock man who said he and his teacher use the standard reamers and use a punch and hammer to expand the bushing such that it stays in place. Too much work and danger of damaging the bushing. I use the Butterworth whole size bushings 2 3 4 5 etc..

 

[bangster]

For small round files, check HERE.

Google "small round files" for more sources.

I find the plastic-handled broaches hard to use by themselves. I hold them in a "Heavy Duty Pin Vise", Timesavers 23772.

I take it you've read the tutorial Bushing Using Hand Tools.

 

[fuseefan]

I use an escapement file made by grobet-vallorbe. I believe it is called a 'rat tailed' file.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

Hi Folks,

I recently ordered some needle files, broaches and a few other bits from Timesavers.

To be honest, this is the first chance I have had to look at what I bought despite having the goods for over 2 months now!

Anyway, the needles are labelled 3mm x 140mm x 12pc... and I received two packs the same an error on timesavers behalf. Problem seems to be that these files are not small enough to elongate the smaller pivot holes on the 0451 and 1151 movements.

I also ordered cutting broaches, a set 6 pieces 2.4mm to 6.20mm. These have plastic handles on. I bought the pin vice as well for the broaches.

Does the plastic handles need removing before locating in the pin vice??

Also I presume that needle files can be purchased in much smaller sizes? I haven't had time to check this out yet as been too busy.

Any advice will be gratefully received.

Cheers,

Simon

Simon

Not really advise , but a consideration.

When you consider the most common bushing methods, you have selected the least consistent, least accurate method requiring the highest degree of skill with no practical method of correcting mistakes by yourself or others.

If you pursue this method, you will need high quality fine cut small files of various shapes that allow you to closely control accurate metal removal. For this, I would suggest a set of escapement files such as the following example.

http://www.riogrande.com/category/tools-and-equipment/files/Friedrich-Dick-Escapement-Files

Files such as these will allow you to enter holes as small as .015" unlike lesser expensive sets.

If by chance you become frustrated using methods of this type, be assured it is not you but the method.
At this point, I would suggest exploring demonstrations of other methods and select something that works better for you as an individual.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[David S]

Simon when I started I used the various file and "broach walking" methods and finally decided that it is best to use a mill to accurately find centre and then drill out the hole with an end mill followed by the proper broach. I didn't feel confident in my hand methods to get the new bush back on centre. Of course others have had successful results with their methods.

David

 

[kinsler33]

Another general observation: perhaps you have noticed that advice on the most common clock repair operations--bushing, cleaning, pivot polishing and lubrication--varies widely and is mutually exclusive. I have seen at least six different methods of pivot polishing, and the present discussion we get an idea of the breadth of opinion on bushings, where you absolutely must have (1) a set of Indian taper reamers and some old-fashioned bushing wire (2) a thousand-dollar Swiss bushing machine, (3) a set of KWM reamers and some press-in bushings, (4) a set of Bergeron bushing tools and Bergeron bushings, or (5) a miniature milling machine and bushings you make yourself from a particular variety of brass rod.

This sort of thing distressed me when I first began fixing clocks again after a fifty-year layoff, and it's only recently that I've realized that craftsmen differ on their methods, often with great vehemence. The only solution is to find your own way, beginning with a minimum of equipment. Clocks are relatively simple mechanisms with relatively large tolerances and, compared to the mechanical instrumentation found in other fields, pretty tolerant of crude treatment: we "adjust" things by bending them, and you really don't need a clean room to fix an old brass clock.

Clocks have plain bearings, which are the most primitive kind, and they lose all the energy put into them to friction. If they don't rattle, they don't run. The shape of gear teeth isn't critical, either: my favorite observation was that far more was learned about gearing in 30 years of automobile transmission manufacture than in five hundred years of clock manufacture.

All of this is fine, and typical of fields filled with good craftsmen. My only complaint is that a guild mentality occasionally surfaces in this forum, e.g., "take your clock immediately to a clock repairman who is qualified, certified, factory-authorized, licensed and ordained." My opinion is that as long as you know enough to let down the mainsprings so that they're safe, you can take darn near anything apart and learn to put it back together again.

Mark Kinsler Lancaster, Ohio, USA

Who uses method (3), aided by a rickety power screwdriver to speed things up.

 

[bangster]

I (and no doubt others) have been bushing with hand tools for years, and have yet to have a come-back due to the method. In my book, rebushing ain't rocket surgery.

 

[BigAl]

Thank you Mark for that common sense and wise post. (14 above) It ought to be a permanent thread at the top of the clock repair forum to help all newbies. For the past few months as part of my amateur's learning curve I have been reading the many pieces of excellent and frequently highly technical advice offered by the many very experienced posters on this site. For the most part though, I have just been going round in circles trying to get my head around what is the 'best' way and what is the correct' way to carry out the routine tasks in clock maintenance. Thanks to the information gleaned from this site, as well as from the books I have read, I can follow and understand most of what has been said but up until I read your post I was still unsure even if the 'best' actually even equated with 'correct' methods. I have been blinded by the science of it all: to near the woods to see the trees.

Thank you for bringing me down to earth and showing the way to take a step back and get a sensible overview. Yours is an excellent post Thank you.

Cheers
BigAl

 

[shimmystep]

I (and no doubt others) have been bushing with hand tools for years, and have yet to have a come-back due to the method. In my book, rebushing ain't rocket surgery.

Agree, it isn't rocket science, and everyone finds their way as Mark discussed.
I've used the hand tools, a Bergeon bushing tool (too much tolerance so got rid of it), and now use a Sherline mill and a KWM bushing tool with end tools/reamer etc that I have been making myself, as the KWM tools can have wobble in the end of the shaft.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

As mentioned, most mechanical clock movements are very simple, very rugged and function flawlessly from the factory.

However, the bad news is that they will absorb a lot of repair abuse and still tick to one degree or another.
Dealing with these issues can be very frustrating for both beginner and experienced reputable repair people.

Having said that, I would like to put in a plug for the NAWCC educational programs.

For the beginner, they offer a chance to explore various options in a hands on setting in many cases.

For the experienced person, they offer encouragement and a chance to explore more efficient repair methods again in a hands on setting.

Offerings can be found by going to the NAWCC main page and clicking on education.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[Convolve]

Agree entirely, I use method 3 and verify bushing center using a preacher. I have a milling machine and found it takes too long to setup ie. finding the center and locking the plate. Many moons ago we used a "bomb sight" drill for drilling holes in circuit boards, drill had cross hairs and a 10x magnification which enabled quick center location for drilling. All gone

 

[shutterbug]

Everyone who enters the clock repair "school" starts with minimal tools and skills. Both increase over time, as does the quality of the repairs being made. Eventually some will get to the point where they can start expecting monetary return on the skills they possess. Even among those of us in the business of repair either full or part time there is a huge swing in skill and ability, price and warranty, service time and many other things. Because of that, questions are answered from viewpoints originating anywhere on that curve. It's usually a matter of gathering ideas, determining which of them are in your tool and skill set limits to carry out and making the attempt. We try to be encouraging to people anywhere on the curve

 

[NEW65]

Thank you everyone for your comments on rebushing. They have been very helpful. It seems to me that it is very important to get close to the exact centres if lots of bushings are needed on the same worn movement. To be honest I do not like the idea of filing the pivot holes when perhaps there are quicker and more accurate ways of rebushing. I have thoroughly read the comments on here with regards to the most accurate methods of undertaking this job and it seems as if the milling machine is the best way to go! However, these do not come cheap! Neither do Bergeon bushing machines! I have lots of movements that require rebushing work, reckon i must have over 70 x 0451's/1151's that need rebushing! Hence i would soon regain the money spent on whatever machine I buy!

However, before I leap, I would just like to know the following please.......

If I choose to buy the bergeon bushing machine or a milling machine THEN i wouldn't require to use any needle files... I would just require to find the original centre of the hole and use a reamer? Am I right in what I say?

Please let me know, your advice is gratefully received

Simon
ps Jerry, I presume you are implying the use of one of the above machines for accuracy for the less experienced?

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

Thank you everyone for your comments on rebushing. They have been very helpful. It seems to me that it is very important to get close to the exact centres if lots of bushings are needed on the same worn movement. To be honest I do not like the idea of filing the pivot holes when perhaps there are quicker and more accurate ways of rebushing. I have thoroughly read the comments on here with regards to the most accurate methods of undertaking this job and it seems as if the milling machine is the best way to go! However, these do not come cheap! Neither do Bergeon bushing machines! I have lots of movements that require rebushing work, reckon i must have over 70 x 0451's/1151's that need rebushing! Hence i would soon regain the money spent on whatever machine I buy!

However, before I leap, I would just like to know the following please.......

If I choose to buy the bergeon bushing machine or a milling machine THEN i wouldn't require to use any needle files... I would just require to find the original centre of the hole and use a reamer? Am I right in what I say?

Please let me know, your advice is gratefully received

Simon
ps Jerry, I presume you are implying the use of one of the above machines for accuracy for the less experienced?

Simon
If you have a movement that is well worn, it proves that it ran properly when new. It is only logical to take advantage of this proven performance by returning everything to its original location and condition.
Anything less will be a modification and a unproven condition.
A small Milling machine with versatility and quality will allow you to not only accurately bush, but to perform all other required machining operations in Horological repair unlike specialized machines such as a bushing machine.
This in turn reduces tool cost since the Mill takes the place of many specialized tools and or machines with the only exception being a compatible Lathe.

When bushing with a Mill, you clamp a movement plate in bushing/depthing blocks on the mill bed.
The slides are then used to quickly and accurately position the hole to be bushed under the spindle center line per movement block instructions or instruction. Once the hole is reamed and bushed, you simple move to the next hole while leaving the plate clamped to the bed until all holes are bushed. This makes the process quick and efficient requiring little practice or developed skill. No other tools are required other than a location pin and reamer. An added plus is the ability of the Mill to correct mistakes by ones self and others in an efficient manner.

While the Mill is an excellent value when all things are considered, it still can be considered expensive by some.

If your main concern is accurately bushing on a budget, I made a suggestion for consideration on one of your posts from about a year ago.

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php...ly-arrived!!!&highlight=jerry+kieffer+bushing

I believe it was on post #15.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[Willie X]

It is a big misconception that a regular bushing tool, Bergeon or otherwise, will hold the center on it's own, just center and crank away. Ha, nothing could be furthur from the truth. BUT, with some practice, excelent work can be done and done quickly with any bushing machine. You have to learn how to nibble.
Willie X

 

[Convolve]

Very diplomatic.

 

[shutterbug]

Jerry makes a point, and to be honest, a mill does not cost a lot more than a bushing machine. Always buy the very best system that you can afford.

 

[Willie X]

IMO, the decision of how to rebush would be based on how much clock repair you were going to do.
A few dozen movements, hand tools only would be fine. You may even learn more starting with hand tools no matter what your ambitions.
Planning on doing 100s or 1000s of clocks (business), a machine will be a must.
I agree fully with what Jerry and Bugs said.
I keep thinking about the job you have in front of you and I assume you know that a 451 series Hermle movement is a disposable item? Wear in the upper train is a good sign that the movement is toast. Still a good practice/learning project though. Just don't expect the movement to last more than a few years, no matter how good your bushing work is.
Willie X