Bushing Dilemma

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by bikerclockguy, Apr 17, 2018 at 3:51 AM.

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  1. bikerclockguy

    bikerclockguy Registered User
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    Jul 22, 2017
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    I'm building a movement I bought off of eBay for spare parts. After close examination of both movements and many headaches with my original, I decided to build the one I bought. It's a"tighter" movement than the other one; not as much wear on the teeth, plates are in better shape, just not as much wear period. It's been worked on by at least 2 people, that much I know for sure. The problem is that I don't know if the second guy was a genius or an idiot, and I'm not sure where to go with this. The EW has been bushed twice, once by each guy. The first guy used the larger dark colored bushings(Bergeon bronze maybe?)and the second guy's bushing is the same size as a KLM, but it's homemade, and it looks like he offset the hole to compensate for the larger bushing on the other side. Theoretically, that shouldn't have been necessary, because if the centers were in the same spot, the OD if the bushing would be irrelevant. I've tried measuring the distance form the center of each hole to the lower edge of the top "bar" in the plate, and they are close, but it could just barely hook the tip if my mic in the hole, so I don't have that much confidence in the accuracy. Each bushing is just slightly worn, and the holes barely our of round, and if it was a secons or third wheel, I would probably just go with it, but since it's the EW, I decided to seek some advice. Should I knock out the off-center bushing and replace it,or leave well enough alone? And to answer the question on everyone's mind, I don't know if it ran like that because I didn't test it on a stand. One of these days, I;m gonna learn that it pays to do that.

    IMG_1243.JPG IMG_1246.JPG IMG_1244.JPG IMG_1245.JPG IMG_1246.JPG
     
  2. John P

    John P Registered User
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    Sep 17, 2010
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    I would re-bush that hole at least and re check if the wheel runs right with the other ew bushing.
     
  3. Randy Beckett

    Randy Beckett Registered User
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    May 23, 2012
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    I would put at least the last three wheels of the time train back between the plates, without the verge, and turn them back and forth by hand. This should give you a pretty good idea about how good the gears mesh, and the closeness to original center of the old bushings.
     
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  4. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
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    Mic between the arbors on the bushing that you believe are off . See if the distance is the same on the back plate to the front plate. This will give you a good start.
     
  5. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Dec 18, 2011
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    Biker if you don't have a mill, here is what I have done in the past, if you know that mating pivot holes on the opposite plate are good. Made an adjustable preacher which is essentially three points on adjustable arms. It can be set to seat in three good reference holes on the good plate, and then transferred to the top plate with has the out of position pivot hole plugged. It can be lightly taped with a hammer acting as a transfer punch to locate the new pivot hole.

    showing the three points.jpg preacher on korean plug.jpg

    David
     
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  6. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Sep 4, 2008
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    When using a preacher like this it is important to remember that if you use the outside of a plate to take the reference points, you need to apply it to the inside of the other plate to determine the correct position of the pivot hole.

    Uhralt
     
  7. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    Can you lay the plates flush against one another? That may be able to show whether one of the pivot holes has been placed off-center. Without a Depthing Tool (pricey), I think it can be difficult to re-establish a lost center.
     
  8. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I would do as Randy suggests. The important thing is whether the wheels mesh correctly (at the correct depth). There is a lot going on here and the original center has been lost and it appears that someone installed off-center bushings to compensate. There has also been a lot of pounding around those bushings. This one worries me because it appears that the pivot hole is almost through the edge of the bushing. Have there been any bushings installed in the other more badly worn plate? If not, I would seriously consider using that plate. Even though it has more wear, if it hasn't been bushed then you can easily locate where the center of the bushing needs to be. With this mucked up plate you will likely need to do considerable bushing work anyway, so I believe you may have a better outcome if you properly bush the original plate. You may still be able to use some of the less worn wheels from the newly acquired movement. Make sure the wheel & pinion tooth counts are the same. Movements can appear the same but have different gearing ratios for different pendulum lengths.

    RC

    bushing.jpg
     
  9. bikerclockguy

    bikerclockguy Registered User
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    Jul 22, 2017
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    Thanks for all of the help, guys! I decided last night that I would try Randy's suggestion first, and mock it up with the wheels to see what I had. I just finished doing that, and everything meshes and lines up smoothly. It looked like the EW arbor was dead-on perpendicular to the plates on both sides, so I decided to take a measurement. I took my dial caliper and measured from the bottom of the EW pivot to the top of the plate, with the mic jaws clamped. I know this is not a relevant measurement in terms of the operation of the clock, because i was exerting upward pressure on the EW pivot, causing it to rest against the top of the bushing, where as in its operational state it will be cradled in the bottom. Still, I wanted to see what i would get. On one side it measured 3.71mm, and on the other 3.53, so I have to say the second guy was pretty good. RC, I have the same concern about the bushing being worn almost through, but using the other plate brings up a concern as well. The rest of this plate is in pretty good shape. 2 more holes have been bushed, but they are nicely centered and wearing evenly. One of them is just barely starting to wear a groove. You have to turn the plate just so to even see it, and it's shallow and maybe a third of the width of the pivot diameter. If I use the other plate, all of the holes will be worn to that clock and that spring tension. Will that not create its own set of problems as bad or worse than the offset bushing? I've never done this operation on a clock, but I'm remembering a countershaft and reverse idler gear swap I did about 30 years ago on a '66 Chevy that didn't turn out so well.Worked fine around town the first day, so I decided it was roadworthy. I got about 15 miles away from my house, and it started to whine, so I decided to turn around. The whine stayed at an even pitch for the next 6 or 7 miles, and I started to think I had freaked out over nothing. then in the span of about 10 seconds, the whine turned to a scream, the back wheels locked up, and it sounded like someone threw an ammo crate full of nuts and bolts down the stairs.
     

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