Burnishing tool application

[Scottie-TX]

O.K. I bought one. I did. I blew out some cobwebs an . . . . NOW! About using it. LOOK! You're aware of my lack of skills so a coupla sophomoric questions; 1. The one on top, of course - the one I bought. It appears to be shaped like a parallelogram. Is it correct that the work surface is the broader one? 2. Is there a front and back like a file? Then 3. I'm looking for a particular file and find the one below. It appears like someone made a burnishing tool from a triangular file. You can see the finish on it is at an angle to the length and the grooves in it seem substantially deeper. Was this made for a different type of burnishing? Do you suppose it is even a burnishing tool? If so, what do you suppose was it's intended application? Thanks - still . . . .

 

[Scottie-TX]

O.K. I bought one. I did. I blew out some cobwebs an . . . . NOW! About using it. LOOK! You're aware of my lack of skills so a coupla sophomoric questions; 1. The one on top, of course - the one I bought. It appears to be shaped like a parallelogram. Is it correct that the work surface is the broader one? 2. Is there a front and back like a file? Then 3. I'm looking for a particular file and find the one below. It appears like someone made a burnishing tool from a triangular file. You can see the finish on it is at an angle to the length and the grooves in it seem substantially deeper. Was this made for a different type of burnishing? Do you suppose it is even a burnishing tool? If so, what do you suppose was it's intended application? Thanks - still . . . .

 

[4piet1]

Hello Scotty. yes the shape is like an triangle you can get them for left or for right-handed. I myself use the bergeon 5103 its made from widia and won't wear out.Some files have differend kind of surface,coarse-fine and burnishing.If the pivot is bad first use the coarse site then fine and last the burnishing.
http://www.bkwatch.nl/gereedschap/gereedschap_94.html
About the file you found, indeed i think it's a home made burnishing file,personal i won't use it,insteat i use your new file.
greetings Piet

 

[Scottie-TX]

Thanks PIET: I might try that homemade one and experiment in the early stage. Of course the one I bought is for final burnishing. How much pressure would you suppose is required? A few oz.? A pound? More?

 

[eskmill]

Scotty: the photo of your burnisher looks to me like it needs to be "grained." The polished appearance won't do much for a pivot.

John Losch I think wrote something about making good ones from square stock. Of course the trapezoidal shape is best for finishing the sholder of the pivot.

He (Losch) describes polishing the burnisher stock on a flat plate using finer and finer wet carbide cutting paper such as used in auto body shops until it is near mirror gloss. 'Doesn't matter if the burnisher stock is made from an old file or from high grade tool steel.

Finally the burnisher is "grained" with a clean piece of 320 or 400 carbide paper securely held on a flat plate but this time only one stroke is used and with the newly polished burnisher drawn sideways across the abrasive cutting paper using firm downward pressure on the tool.

A worn pivot burnisher can be re-faced using the same process.

The burnisher can be used dry but a small amount of kerosene helps to keep the grain clean. Some prefer oil especially if the pivot is being turned at high speed.

 

[Scottie-TX]

So let me see if I understand: You view this burnisher as needing dressed further to be suitable for final burnishing, without which it would only be useful for rough burnishing as in an early stage when the pivot is very rough?

 

[Smudgy]

Scottie, I think you've misunderstood Les's post. He meant that the burnisher is too smooth to do you much good in it's current condition (it will burnish, but will take an excessively long time). He is suggesting that you grain the burnisher by dragging sideways across 320 or 400 grit carbide paper. The rest is information from John Losch's site about making a burnisher from an old file or other suitable piece of steel. He also added a suggestion for using a lubricant when burnishing (without the lubricant the pivot surface will tend to tear). The tool that has too rough of a surface for final burnishing is the modified triangular file.

 

[RJSoftware]

The trapezoidal shape is so that it will maintain a sharp edge during the course of the burnishing tool's life.

As you wear the tool down via use the trapezoidal shape maintains the edge.

The 'edge concearn' is so that when you burnish the pivots with the tool you will always be able to get real close to arbor pivot edge.

That area is area of concearn as it tends to get stuck when gears are turning.

Charles post where he explains how he made burnishing tool with door hinge is very detailed in this reguard. Here is link.

old ref::http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/57460...511031951#9511031951

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Scottie-

Here's a picture of one of my burnishers...



The problem with lines that don't run laterally is that they will leave an impression on the polished pivot.

Also, here is another link to how to make a burnisher...

old ref::Carbide Burnisher

Good luck with it!

 

[Joe D.]

Scottie,

The triangular tool is a scraper. It is mainly used for deburring the edges of holes. You'll notice that the end has been sharpened, the rest of it is in "as made" condition. It's handy for deburring a hole drilled in the lathe, just use a scraping motion at a slow speed.

Joe

 

[RJSoftware]

Hey David;

Thanks for info about the home made burnisher.

But not sure it looks any more cost effective than just buying one from timesavers. By the time you get things done...

http://www.jlindustrial.com/search/searchresults.jsp?_requestid=21213
(about $14 or $22)

http://www.jlindustrial.com/search/searchresults.jsp?_requestid=21466
(about $10)

Or I might have wrong items. Not sure.

RJ

 

[LaBounty]

Hey RJ-

I don't know if you have the right items or not (they didn't come up in the link) but the carbide slip isn't the most expensive item. The diamond hone, at $50, is the biggest one-time expense.

I agree that once you have everything you need to make a single carbide burnisher, and then take the time to actually make it, it would be less costly to just buy one...initially. The cost savings comes over time when you consider the effort required to frequently re-surface a "store bought" burnisher. Even if you only prep your burnisher once a month, that is still 30 minutes you could have spent on clock work. A carbide burnisher won't need to be re-surfaced and the high dollar tools you purchase to do the initial prepping are certainly useful for other things. I know I use my diamond hone and file on a regular basis.

And you could always make up a bunch and offer them for sale. At say, $100 each, you could recoup your initial investment fairly quickly...if anyone bought one that is .

 

[Scottie-TX]

Thanks a 10 to the 6th! 4P, ECKster, Smud, ARJAY, JOE, an DAVE who? Thanks Joe. I'll put it back where it was. It's NOT a burnisher. SMUDG: LAB: So this new burnisher is not ready to use? It needs prepped? Grained? And I need a diamond hone to do this graining?

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Scottie-

No, the burnisher you've purchased is not ready to use and must be prepped. If you purchased one of the carbide tool bits to use as a burnisher then you will need the diamond hone and diamond file to put the proper finish on it. Carbide is very hard and it will take something harder, like diamond, to put any kind of lines on it.

On the other hand, if you purchased a new burnisher from one of the supply houses, then follow Les, Smudgy, and John Losch's directions for prepping. Just realize you will need to periodically re-prep the burnisher if it shows any wear lines.

I'm not familiar with the Bergeon 5103 burnisher that Piet is using but Bergeon is high quality and you can't go wrong with their product.

 

[Scottie-TX]

O.K. : This is timesavers made in India hardened steel burnisher. So after dressing per instructions, I can use this but will need to re-surface it prior to nearly every use? That's no problem for me. While you use yours every day, I may use mine once a week. It's not carbide so I won't be needing diamond tools to dress it? Now about pressure: What would you estimate is the optimum pressure to use when burnishing? A few oz? A pound? Do I understand that after burnishing, the chromelike, polished pivot will turn black indicating burnishing is complete? Edited to read "once a week" - not once a month.

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Scottie-

No, if your burnisher is steel you can use just about any wet-dry sand paper, as found at your local hardware store, for prepping. And you shouldn't need to prep it before every use but watch for those wear lines.

Now, pressure...

Burnishing is very much a "feel" process. The amount of pressure you apply will vary from start to finish and even from pivot to pivot. But burnishing is more than just pressure. It is a combination of both pressure and rotational speed.

Too much pressure and too fast a rotation can cause a burn in the pivot finish that shows up as a brown, discolored ring. Too much pressure can also bend or break the piece you are working on.

I'd suggest starting with a very light touch and vary the speed. Then, work your way up in pressure until you find the combination of speed and pressure that gives you the best results. You should realize this "optimal" combination varies depending on the type of steel you are working with.

It is going to take practice and it won't come easy. Just a hint...If you can get a fairly smooth finish with a pivot file before you use the burnisher, it will greatly speed up the burnishing process.

Good luck and keep us updated as to your progress!

 

[4piet1]

Hello,quote David "I'm not familiar with the Bergeon 5103 burnisher that Piet is using "well David this burnisher is so hard that it won't need to be re-surfaced and i polished a lot of pivots with it(even verry hard pivots in French movements and it shows no wear ). It has two sides one coarse and one fine side, this was done out of factory.
And Scotty when burnishing put the wheelaxs in an pin vice keep the file horizontal and push light down and left on the pivot(i my self let the pivot rest on an small peace of hard wood like oak )and i dip my burnisher in ( motoroil,its cheap)when burnishing.Turn the vice couterclock wise to yourself and push the file over the pivot away from you.Look often with an eye-loupe(after cleaning the pivot with an cloth and rodico) and scratch with your fingernail over the pivot surface,if the pivot looks like an mirror and you don't feel scratches annymore than your ready.
You need practice to get an nice straight and smooth pivot, but a'm sure you learn.Smooth and straight pivots is the only good start to get to an perfect repaired movement.
Greetings Piet

 

[Scottie-TX]

You've seen my polished pivots, unburnished. They look like chrome. I'm just ascribing to the premise that burnishing has additional benefits and altho I may not discover or learn that this is true I want to try it and make my own conclusions. Now speed of rotation? 600RPM? Rotate slowly by hand? Other? DAMN! This is sinful. I feel like I oughta be paying for this education. O.K. Throw a guilt trip on me at the end.

 

[RJSoftware]

I am tempted to just do it the way 4piet1 describes.

I think maybe with a little modification though.

Say I have a flat plywood type board.

Cut small slot for gear to drop into. So arbor can touch surface of board. Make hole wide enough (slot) so gear can slide back and forth.

Cut small groove for arbor to snug down into allowing pivot to rest on top of board surface.

Now the gear can be shifted left or right to get pivot to lay on top of board. (arbor slides in groove, gear slides in slot).

I think that I would have enough coordination to twist gear with rubber squeegie (right hand) and hold file/burnisher down firm (left hand) and keep pivot located on board surface (right hand).

http://www.picpuppy.com/My_burnish.JPG

 

[tymfxr]

I think all of us like to get all the info we can on others various ways of repairing clocks. Have you seen this one? A bit long but lots of useful ideas to 'pick' from. http://home.att.net/~jclosch/articles.htm#pivots
Mike C.

 

[LaBounty]

Thanks for the info Piet! Now I want one .

Scottie-

Piet and I use different methods of burnishing and there's really no single best method. It is whatever works best for you. Piet burnishes over the top, turning by hand, while I burnish from underneath and use a lathe.

And I have no idea what RPM things are rotating. I can tell you my motor is rated at 1725 max. RPM but with all of the pulleys attached, I'd have to do some math to figure out what the lathe is rotating at.

RJ...Great picture! It certainly looks like that setup will work. Let us know how you do!

Thanks too for the link Mike. Mr. Losch has a wealth of wonderful information on his site and I learn something new every time I go there.

 

[Robert Gary]

David:

Do you have your method of making a burnisher documented with photos on your website or published anywhere else?

RobertG

 

[LaBounty]

Hey RobertG-

No, I don't have the process photographed or documented anywhere besides the MB. It wouldn't be difficult to do and I've been meaning to make another burnisher.

Stay tuned!

 

[Scottie-TX]

Again: Thanks to all. An 8day, 1wt on the floor awaits my attention next week. HEY! I'm ready to become a burnishing fool. WHOOPS! Think I'm already halfway there. Thanks Bros!

 

[Smudgy]

I've got a related queation that I was wondering about.

In a text a few years back (I don't remember which but may have been Thisold) There was a list of different tools for polishing and burnishing pivots. One of the tools listed was an agate polisher. From what I remember The author was recommending polishing using oilstone dust, but said that the agate burnisher would polish without the addition of the dust due to the nature of the stone. I've never seen any other references, but I was wondering if anyone else has any knowledge of this. The closest thing I've ever seen in the catalogues is sapphire burnishers, and they are quite expensive.

The reason I ask is that I have access to agate and lapidary tools and was considering making one this fall since it would be such little trouble.

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Smudgy-

I'm not sure if this is an answer to your question but stones don't have to be called burnisher/polishers, and have a handle, in order to be useful. I have an assortment of stones I use for polishing pivots too hard for my pivot file. Here's a picture...



I have several favorites but I'm not sure what kind of stones they all are. I purchased most of them from NAWCC marts so if you have a source for this kind of stone let me know. The important thing is the size. You have to be able to hold on to it .

Hope that helps!

 

[Smudgy]

Hi David

Thanks for the response. Let me know what size stone you want, and the type of stone. I can get agate, jasper, jewelers grade flint, etc. I've got a freind with a semi-precious stone mine and can basically get whatever type stone is in the mountains around here. She's been wanting me to stop out and get some. I just need to go out to Sutton to get the stuff, or tell her what I need and she'll drop it off here when she's in town (which is very infrequently). I'm busy right now building a dining room cabinet, but plan on making the trip once I've finished. I've got some medical issues slowing things down right now, but the cabinet should be done before the month ends. I'm also hoping to get some free time to go to Anchorage and meet you It seems like something keeps happening that interferes. If you can me a PM for the stones, maybe it'll happen sometimes this fall.

 

[LaBounty]

Thanks Smudgy! Did you get my PM? I wouldn't want you to think I was ignoring you .

 

[LaBounty]

Hey RobertG-

Well, I finally got that burnisher project done. The article grew quite a bit after I got started but "How to Make a Carbide Burnisher" is in there somewhere .

You can access "Burnishing" Here.

Hope that helps!

 

[Steve Patton]

Lab,
Thanks for another great article. You have tied it all together
and easy to understand. I had questions about previous posts concerning
the "modern" plated pivots. I now understand! In this case older
is better. I have only one question remaining. Do the Hermle arbors take to
re-pivoting? I know it's more cost effective to replace the movement, but
it's not about that.
Don't know if I'm ready to make the carbide burnisher, but the methods
are there when I am ready. It's really not about the cost of creation, but
all about the ability to make a tool. That has multitudes of rewards.

Keep them coming...... It is appreciated

Steve

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Steve-

Thanks for the compliments!

Yes, the Hemle arbors will stand up to repivoting but it is usually only necessary on the second wheels. I drill the hole a bit deeper than I normally would in "regular" steel. This gives the pivot added support in the arbor. Normally, the arbor is drilled as deep as the pivot is long but in soft steel I go 1 1/2 times the length of the pivot. I want to be sure the new pivot has plenty of grip in the soft steel.

And it isn't just Hermle's that have the soft steel. Jauch, Kieninger, Herschede (1960-), Regula...just about every clock that was made after 1960 and a few even before that. The soft steel is fairly easy to detect when you start polishing and I automatically repivot the second wheels when I find it.

But as you say, it is generally more cost effective to replace the movement with a new one if available.

 

[dutch]

Originally posted by LaBounty
Hey RobertG-

Well, I finally got that burnisher project done. The article grew quite a bit after I got started but "How to Make a Carbide Burnisher" is in there somewhere .

You can access "Burnishing" Here.

Hope that helps!

Hi David,

Thank you so much for the article on burnishing. After reading it I think I know what has been wrong with my attempts in the past,after burnishing my pivots would not be as smooth as they were just polishing. I think the lube oil must have been holding particulates and scratching up the smooth surface. I was using kerosene for a lubbricant.I will try the gun oil on the next one I do and another thing I had no idea that my smooth broaches needed preping and the wallowing of them sounds like a good idea for mine often seized up and were hard to pull out of the pivot hole.

Thanks again,
Dutch

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Dutch-

I'm glad you found the information useful!

One of the most difficult things to write about is technique. There is a "feel" to burnishing that just has to be experienced before describing it makes sense. Your problem with scratching the finish is a good example.

Although changing lubricants may help, the problem may go away if you change your technique a bit. When burnishing, most people use the technique of drawing the burnisher towards their body and then pushing it away while they work the pivot. If you are having problems with scoring on the pivot, try a single slow pull without changing directions. At the end of the pull, clean the burnisher and apply fresh lubricant. Pivot scoring will usually occur when the pivot is worked into dirty lubricant, i.e. when there's a direction change.

Good luck with it! Burnishing isn't easy even though there are people out there who make it look that way.

 

[Robert Gary]

David:

As always, you have written an outstanding article! Thank you very much. I will read it over several times until I am truly familiar with the processes. Then, practice, practice, practice!

I hope this gets published soon. There are a lot of individuals out there looking for this type of instruction.

Thank you again.

RobertG

 

[dutch]

Originally posted by LaBounty:
Hey Dutch-

I'm glad you found the information useful!

One of the most difficult things to write about is technique. There is a "feel" to burnishing that just has to be experienced before describing it makes sense. Your problem with scratching the finish is a good example.

Although changing lubricants may help, the problem may go away if you change your technique a bit. When burnishing, most people use the technique of drawing the burnisher towards their body and then pushing it away while they work the pivot. If you are having problems with scoring on the pivot, try a single slow pull without changing directions. At the end of the pull, clean the burnisher and apply fresh lubricant. Pivot scoring will usually occur when the pivot is worked into dirty lubricant, i.e. when there's a direction change.

Good luck with it! Burnishing isn't easy even though there are people out there who make it look that way.

Well David if we keep at this long enough I will get it figured out.I was guilty of the push and pull method and I think it was dirty lubricant that was messing up my work. I am looking forward to my next try to see if it works better.

Thanks for the help, Dutch

 

[Scottie-TX]

I know I'm slow - takes me an hour anda half to watch "Sixty Minutes". Just doug this up with plans of prepping my burnisher as a refresher. The stones: I have some of them. They were in my dad's tool chest. The three colored ones came from a knife sharpening kit. Now the soap colored ones in front I believe may be hard Arkansas. They literally feel like they have no abrasive quality. I'm sure they do. Now you would what - use these hard smooth ones for polishing prior to burnishing?

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Scottie-

Yes, that's correct. But it is very difficult to obtain a nice flat pivot all the way to the shoulder using a stone since the edge on most stones is rounded. I will generally only use a stone for polishing very hard pivots that my pivot file can't cut easily. Then I come back with the pivot file and dress the area of the pivot close to the shoulder so there is a sharp ninety degree transition from the pivot to the shoulder.

So, to make a long post short...It is very difficult to obtain a square shoulder using stones. Test them out anyway though!

 

[Scottie-TX]

O.K. Fine bidness. I did. I dressed the took until I could see scratches ACROSS it. I chose a pivot that was already at a very high lustre in excellent condition - looked like chrome (wasn't). I stoned it with that triangular hard, smooth stone. In the drillpress. About 600RPM. Light touch - enough to affect it. Studied it. I saw no visible change in the finish. Fine. Got out my trusty ( That's Trusty, BONG)burnisher. Same thing. Light pressure perhaps a minute or two. Studied it. No change. What visual reference - appearance should I get to know this process was successful? So far I see none.

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Scottie-

The difference in appearance from a highly polished pivot and a burnished one is very subtle and is more a difference of hardness than sheen. If you place a highly polished pivot next to a burnished one, I don't think there would be a visual difference.

But what you are asking for is what characteristics to look for when going from a polished surface to a burnished one. I've heard a burnished surface described as "becoming black". This refers to the dark reflection in a very high polish. This change is very difficult to see if going from a high polish to a burnish so it is actually easiest to see the burnishing process if you don't polish the surface to a high gloss but rather stopping short at a matte finish.

Burnishing is a combination of pressure and speed so, if you aren't seeing a change from your matte finish to your burnished finish, try changing the pressure and/or speed.

This is one of the hardest techniques to describe since subtle hand motions and pressure changes will make all the difference.

Good luck with it!

 

[Scottie-TX]

Yeah LAB thanks, an' I'm with ya all th' way. My kingdom for a microscope. I certainly understand the concept of "matte to burnished". It's visible. I was trying to achieve that "black" that STEVE described in his monthrunner article. I THOUGHT I saw it in the drillpress, but removed it to a high intensity light and "nope" ; No black there. Thanks. I'll keep tryin' it until I reach that pinnacle of nirvana. Until then I'll be going thru the motions believing it's doing what I want with no visible indications that it has.

 

[Scottie-TX]

SMUDGY, thank you very much for the privat mail of info concerning different types of stones and informative use of them and related applications. 'preciate;

 

[bangster]

I didn't think ol' Scottie needed instructions on getting stoned.

bangster

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Smudgy-

I feel a little like an eavesdropper but I'd be interested in the information on stones too . Any chance I could get a copy? Please, please! There's always more to learn.

 

[Smudgy]

I was just letting Scottie know to clean the pivot with pithwood before brnishing so he wouldn't embed the grits into the pivot. I also let him know that the milky colored stones (the 3 lowest) appear to be translucent Arkansas oilstones. The tranlucent is generally considered the best of the Arkansas oilstone varieties. Just to add some conjecture the top left white stone looks like a ceramic stone, but could also be a Japaneese water stone (you should be able to tell by the feel, the Japaneese stone will be softer than the ceramic). On the right the top red stone is a mystery to me, but is probably one of the man-made stones (probably ceramic or a water stone, but possibly a ruby stone), again feeling the stone would tell a great deal. The grey stone looks like a hard Arkansas stone (the easiest type of Arkansas to find, but having no veining should still be a good stone, although the finish will be rougher than the translucent). The reddish triangular stone looks like a soft Arkansas oilstone, it will work a little quicker than the hard Arkansas stone, but will also be a bit coareser. Oil should be used on the oilstones (no surprise, I'm sure). Water should be used on the water stones (also no surprise), but I beleive they are supposed to be flooded, not just have a puddle on top of the stone. The ceramic stones can use either water or oil. When using the oilstones you want the oil to develop into a slurry, and not get dry. The slurry is actually what you want use as the abraisive, not the stone itself. If you don't use water or oil the pores of the stone will get plugged up and the stone will quit working. To unplug the stone simply wetting again usually works, but soap and water and a stiff brush can be used on stones that have been mistreated for a longer period. You can resurface the oil stones with emory cloth or a sharpening stone (corundum, India, or any of the various other types). There are ceramic plates to flatten the water stones as well as a type of natural stone sold specifically for the purpose, but I don't know why the other methods won't work. The water stones are quite a bit softer than the oil stones. they wear a lot quicker because of it, but they also start to cut a lot quicker. I don't know how one would resurface a ceramic or ruby stone, but I would guess at diamond lapping.

 

[Robert Gary]

Smudgy:

Could you possibly post your comments on stones either on the web with a link for us, or even better, write it up and submit it as an article for the NAWCC Bulletin?

Thanks

RobertG

 

[LaBounty]

Great information Smudgy! Thank you!

 

[Smudgy]

I could post some information on WIKI. What kind of information do you think would be helpful? I've been using stones for my whole life so it's difficult for me to judge what information might be useful. It's just information that I know without thinking because I've always known it. I was thinking about posting a page on hand-sharpening tools (knives and the like). The other day someone said something to me that made me realize that most people don't know a lot of the information that I know so well that I think everyone knows it. I just haven't gotten around to writing it. I figured that WIKI would be good because if someone knows better (or even just different) information (or methods) they would be able to post or edit to enhance or alter it.

 

[harold bain]

Smudgy, what is a WIKI?
Harold

 

[Smudgy]

WIKI is a site that allows people to work as a community on papers and such. I don't know what the letters stand for, but it's basically a publicly accessable encyclopedia. You can start a subject (called a seed WIKI) and anyone can add to or edit it. I started one here to post directions for making a drill bit for someone that was interested. I planned on expanding the topic with modifications for faster drilling, deep holes, etc. but didn't get back to it right away and had forgotten about it. I should probably finish it.

 

[Robert Gary]

Smudgy:

I think starting at the basics would be good. What stones are used for in clock work, how to choose the proper stone for the job, how to apply it, etc. Then readers could ask questions and the topic could build from there.

Just assume we are your 12 year old child who knows absolutely nothing about the topic, but you are going to teach us. Don't worry about insulting our intelligence, on this topic (at least), we have none.

RobertG