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burgeon tool crisis and n-e 1 have a broken cannon pinion tool 4 sale

horologicaltribologist

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Jan 9, 2022
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Howdy folks, Tom Here From Atlanta!

Am really excited about getting into some watch making. I have a slew of tools in my alibaba cart but am having a crisis.

What will people think when they see me trolliping around town with fake copied burgeon tools

If someone sees me using a Kwong Yeun Screwdriver set what will they think!?

Well I bought bugreon screwdriver tips ill say and they will vomit in their mouths a bit.

Bergeon made a name for itself as some of the best tools and everyone respects work done at the hand of bergeon. A horotec fan will probably not turn his or her nose up when they see a fellow watchmaker using burgeon. There may be some funny banter and jokes back and fourth but I don't think you'd even get the time of day with the possible child labor law violating tools.

On the other hand a horotec fan will probably wonder what sort of back alley horolological knowledge and skills could someone possibly possess using knock off tools? I think they will hate you simply because your tool choice and I dont want that.

but I am sure they will get sick to the stomach to see me using a chineese copy of a tool they used to put their child through college with!



Bergeon been around a million years and bought houses possessions and properties for the watchmakers that used them and they have a deep love for the source of income the quality tools have afforded them.

Then some factory owners in shenzen get rich by stealing the hard work! probably hurting their own fellow man by paying crappy and having poor conditions for work. the chineese come and make almost exact copies and in some cases EXACT copies, Taking the income from families and indiviuals that are burgeon by simply copying and reselling their designs and brand.

On the other hand bergeon tools are NOT affordable, not like "no one has enough money to buy" their products. Obviously they can be had.


The average manufacturer's gross profit percentage varies between 25 percent and 35 percent I would say. Conservatively I would say Burgeon probably has a over all PM of ~1000% most likely over 2k% average.


I am going to make some generalizations
In the case of a hand puller by burgeon I would guess their cost per hand puller is 1-3$ perhaps 4 or 5 by the time they get it to the horological supply house they sell them for 60-80 that can be 2000-8000% mark up


Same like Rolex, the cost of the tools is inflated to a much higher percent of profit margin because the supply and demand.


WHAT DO I DO!!!! I want to use horotec and burgeon but they are way over priced!



Another thing 1-2 years ago the prices were more reasonable, as they were 3 5 10 and even many more years ago.


Like Rolex Burgeon used to produce amazing tools for an amazing price but I feel like prices are beyond the limits of reasonable any more. Now they produce amazing tools for a VERY VERY VERY high price and as the consumer I decide when that is unreasonable.

This is a community however, DOES spend the extra on their tools, does spend the extra on their watches far in excess of what they are actually worth monetarily.

What do you folks think?

Also does anyone have a burgeon cannon pinion tool older style that accepts smaller then 1 mm that is broken? that could accept ~50$ for it?

It matters not how it is broken as I have an entire machine shop at my disposal.
 
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DeweyC

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What the heck. I'll bite. First, in the 1990s (OMG 30 years ago now!) the $1USD = 1.6 CHD. That was when I had a number of M21 parts made (bought by Ravel and sold as NOS; but that is another story). Today $1 USD hovers around 98 centimes. Big difference.

Also, at that time ALL the Swiss industry (from factories to garage based suppliers) were simply trying to survive and were very grateful for orders of any size.

Then I have a MU-700 for which I have the original invoice. In 1982 that timer was sold to a professional watchmaker for over $2000 USD (in 1982 dollars!)

Equipment was only "cheap" during the "crisis" of the late 1980s and 1990s when everyone was certain mechanical watches were dead.

I do agree the Chinese offer alternatives that cost less and function as well (nearly?) as European tools. I have reviewed the Chinese clone of the Horia jewel press/stumps, screwdrivers and collet closer recently. All of these are at least 1/2 the price of Bergeon.

And, I like them. They compare well and work well. The only issue is that I am conflicted about supporting "poaching". But apparently, no Intellectual Property rights are involved since no one has challenged these suppliers.

I recently ordered the "needle" hand puller. I am interested in adapting it to be a chrono drive wheel puller. I do not use that Presto thing and I often take the 4th/drive wheel/bridge out as an assembly to remove the wheel by using levers from below. Avoids cracked jewels but is cumbersome.

I know of no one who cares what brands of tool are used, so long as they are in good condition, do the job, and are used correctly
 

everydaycats

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Aug 11, 2011
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Howdy folks, Tom Here From Atlanta!

Am really excited about getting into some watch making. I have a slew of tools in my alibaba cart but am having a crisis.

What will people think when they see me trolliping around town with fake copied burgeon tools

If someone sees me using a Kwong Yeun Screwdriver set what will they think!?

Well I bought bugreon screwdriver tips ill say and they will vomit in their mouths a bit.

Bergeon made a name for itself as some of the best tools and everyone respects work done at the hand of bergeon. A horotec fan will probably not turn his or her nose up when they see a fellow watchmaker using burgeon. There may be some funny banter and jokes back and fourth but I don't think you'd even get the time of day with the possible child labor law violating tools.

On the other hand a horotec fan will probably wonder what sort of back alley horolological knowledge and skills could someone possibly possess using knock off tools? I think they will hate you simply because your tool choice and I dont want that.

but I am sure they will get sick to the stomach to see me using a chineese copy of a tool they used to put their child through college with!



Bergeon been around a million years and bought houses possessions and properties for the watchmakers that used them and they have a deep love for the source of income the quality tools have afforded them.

Then some factory owners in shenzen get rich by stealing the hard work! probably hurting their own fellow man by paying crappy and having poor conditions for work. the chineese come and make almost exact copies and in some cases EXACT copies, Taking the income from families and indiviuals that are burgeon by simply copying and reselling their designs and brand.

On the other hand bergeon tools are NOT affordable, not like "no one has enough money to buy" their products. Obviously they can be had.


The average manufacturer's gross profit percentage varies between 25 percent and 35 percent I would say. Conservatively I would say Burgeon probably has a over all PM of ~1000% most likely over 2k% average.


I am going to make some generalizations
In the case of a hand puller by burgeon I would guess their cost per hand puller is 1-3$ perhaps 4 or 5 by the time they get it to the horological supply house they sell them for 60-80 that can be 2000-8000% mark up


Same like Rolex, the cost of the tools is inflated to a much higher percent of profit margin because the supply and demand.


WHAT DO I DO!!!! I want to use horotec and burgeon but they are way over priced!



Another thing 1-2 years ago the prices were more reasonable, as they were 3 5 10 and even many more years ago.


Like Rolex Burgeon used to produce amazing tools for an amazing price but I feel like prices are beyond the limits of reasonable any more. Now they produce amazing tools for a VERY VERY VERY high price and as the consumer I decide when that is unreasonable.

This is a community however, DOES spend the extra on their tools, does spend the extra on their watches far in excess of what they are actually worth monetarily.

What do you folks think?

Also does anyone have a burgeon cannon pinion tool older style that accepts smaller then 1 mm that is broken? that could accept ~50$ for it?

It matters not how it is broken as I have an entire machine shop at my disposal.
I buy quality when I need it and that's not too often. I see "new" watchmaker wannabes and Youtube watchmakers spend thousands on tools and for what? I guess if you have it spend it, but when I started, my father made my screwdrivers by hand and I bought tweezers at the local drugstore in the ladies makeup area. I'm not trying to poo this discussion, but really? If you want to know the craft then learn it...Tools are only as good as the person using them.
 

horologicaltribologist

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Jan 9, 2022
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I buy quality when I need it and that's not too often. I see "new" watchmaker wannabes and Youtube watchmakers spend thousands on tools and for what? I guess if you have it spend it, but when I started, my father made my screwdrivers by hand and I bought tweezers at the local drugstore in the ladies makeup area. I'm not trying to poo this discussion, but really? If you want to know the craft then learn it...Tools are only as good as the person using them.
The thing is I want to be in the public eye. I have been wanting to make some youtube videos. You may not know this but the whole point of youtube is to help companies sell their wares and little more. I am not even one of those wannabe watchmakers yet as I haven't received my first mechanical pocket watch purchase ever. I bought a Le courier incabloc 17j on the 3`rd and it's not even my hands yet!

I wanted my first video to be me servicing this watch and re homing it to its forever home. I wanted my watchmaking journey to be a lighthouse path to others entering the hobby as of now not being sure if i would be lighting the way for peoples paths or a beacon to show the path of ruin. But the whole premise would be people following along my exciting and eventful journey.

Then realizing no one would cover the maximum rehoming fee if they did not see the most advanced lubricants in the right quantities with the correct tools and no damage along the way done in the way of the industry standard.

The next thing I realized was rebuilding over 3000 automotive cylinder heads and over 5000 carbuerators actually did not give me any experience to properly service a watch movement perfectly my first try. Even futher realizing I may not like taking watches apart may not have the talent for it.

Furthermore my wife stated the best copies of items are usually done covertly by the actual company the fakes seem to be copying.

Then Even a bit later I realized it was probably not the best idea to pull apart a brand new old stock 70 year old pocket watch as my VERY VERY first crack at a watch service in my entire life. LOL

So comes in the arsa braile practive movement you see in the pics.

I also think being mindful of these facts and showing the flipping process and showing my desire to support and upgrading to all swiss through profits and flips would be most popular and the most correct.

In my other business, my business model is similar catering to the high end market using the best supplies and techniques and usually my customers are motly on the higher end of the income spectrum. If everyone used me over all they would same so much more money and it shows in various ways

However, although my prices are slightly higher in my industry, the ridiculously high quality of oil and checking adjustments in certain places and adjusting them even where the most popular shops don't check have paid dividends to those who realized that the 25-65 dollars more is poured back into their machines.

a service will cost someone YEARLY SERVICE IS $70-90 where svc with me costs 135-180 but they go from a 50 hour service interval to well over 150 hours. In the end they can go 3 times longer after using me.

I also have a few very advanced tools that balances heavy rotating assemblies again which no one else takes the time to do, which can make a device last instead of 5-7 years potentially lasting 30 or 40 years. 1 $150 service with me can save someone close to $2000 in saved replacement most of the machine.

Every dollar spend with me would be like spending 3 elsewhere. Even the poorest of customers use me many times. I also make a lot of money and when somoene seems like they don't have enough I give breaks. My mom has told me through sacrifice I made for people crying to her that I have the biggest heart of anyone she knows. I take a call and hear it in their voices they want it so bad knowing its worth it and not being able to allow themselves. I routinely do it for no charge.

View attachment 689110 1w.jpg arsa.jpg
 

neighmond

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The most successful watchmakers are ones that are happy and proud of their work. Financial success is nothing more than a byproduct of successful craftsmanship. I personally know around a half dozen "flippers" in the industry and I wouldn't give you a bent nickel for anything they've been inside of. because they're profit driven and their heart isn't in their trade. Who the hell wants to support that sort of business?

As for snob-appeal tools, this board is clear full of watch and clockmakers, many who are in it for a hobby and many who work it as their trade, that could run circles around some of these so called professionals. Tools don't make the craftsman. They can help a good watchmaker do their best, but a Bergeon screwdriver in the hands of a monkey doesn't make the furry bastard a watchmaker! You look at some of these watchmakers in India who make tools out of whatever they can scrounge.....hell, look at the ones right after WWII who turned a balance staff with little more than a pinvice and primitive gravers!

As it's worth.
 

horologicaltribologist

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I have watched all of Watch repair channels his videos along with wristwatch revival, Chronoglide wahtchmaking which is my favorite. red dead french watch collector and more. I am also about )( this close to signing myself up for wach repar school. It took me a while to watch watchrepairchannels vids as his first vid, I was REALLY cringing.


about 6 months ago, youtube decided I was into watching watchmaking videos. Up intl 2 or 3 wweks ago i had never had the inkling to even consider taking a watch apart. But had deep love for watching whatever material i could complety transfixed with the joy of people performing all these processes of repair on watches.
It is because of watching all of those videos that I had not bought a single tool for 6 months while I before ever had any sort of interest for taking a watch apart So I have seen most processes done properly in the proper way I am sure I still sure I donlt posess more than 10$ if all there is to know. Probably know just enough to get myself into trouble!!!

I also remember a phase where I wanted a watchmaers lathe in middleschool becuase my friend had a pencil they turned on one with some cool designs. When I was in middle school I remember scouring ebay for watchmakers lathes and almost buying a watch cleaning machine for the ultrasonic clenaing action as back then a whole watch cleaning machine was cheaper than an actual ultrasonic cleaner. That was back when I was rebuilding chainsaws and reselling them and an ultrasonic would clean the carbs better.
 
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neighmond

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If you're already used to precision machine work you're halfway started already. Practice on filing and polishing, grinding and polishing, cleaning and polishing, and maybe some polishing while you are at it!
As for further education, Do your research before going to college. The climate has changed very drastically in the last term of years. Ask for a syllabus and accreditation information and don't listen to fireside tales of past glories. Ask if they have past alumni that you may speak with, and ask around on here and some of the Facebook groups.
 

roughbarked

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As an apprentice, My first job was to sit down with a pinvice and a file and proceed to learn how to file tapered pins.
Second job was to learn how to thin a torsion spring to the correct thickness.
Then to take a jewellers saw and attempt to cut the kangaroo from a penny, without breaking too many blades.

So, regardless of which tools, it is also a large part in how they are used.
 

horologicaltribologist

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Jan 9, 2022
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If you're already used to precision machine work you're halfway started already. Practice on filing and polishing, grinding and polishing, cleaning and polishing, and maybe some polishing while you are at it!
As for further education, Do your research before going to college. The climate has changed very drastically in the last term of years. Ask for a syllabus and accreditation information and don't listen to fireside tales of past glories. Ask if they have past alumni that you may speak with, and ask around on here and some of the Facebook groups.

Wow!!
Yeah I had a polishing phase, I actually built trumpet mouthpieces for members of the Atlanta sympony orchestra in college, I also did porting and polishing inside cyclinder heads which is a performance increasing measure. I was so into polishing things as one point in time I bothered my dads coworkers in the engine installshop so bad with 1 time I remember Sebastian jokingly but anoyedling excalimed "Why don;t you go polish your pene!?"

I used to also buy 1/2a control line flight engines by Cox think thimble drome, medallion babebee, venom ect.

I would make cutaways of the mini engines polishing their surfaces. Also mirror polish the engines themselves.

I was into polishing my intake manifold on VW fox digifant.

I am glad in my life I have done some relatable tasks that will likely translade to more enjoyment of this hobby!!

Btw I was born in 87 born much too late to be into 1/2a becuase the excitement the disney flight circle prodced. I had a friend who took over R n D department at cox estes and he sold me the rest of their factory repair parts rescuing them from the cox then estes dumpster!




I realize any college i would go to would be for my own personal enjoyment I would not care to leave my business now to start working for a company even for 6+ figures with a 2 in front.


roughbarked Could you tell me a bit more about your apprenticeship what sort of shop was it. Clocks? Please tell me more about some of the first exercises and weeks you remember as you learned!
 
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roughbarked

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roughbarked Could you tell me a bit more about your apprenticeship what sort of shop was it. Clocks? Please tell me more about some of the first exercises and weeks you remember as you learned
Probably the next job was to learn how to estimate and cut a winding stem to fit a crown. How to do it in the one basic action and how to fix it if you cut too much off.

It was just a country town jewellery store, The watchmaker was from England and we serviced all manner of things from your Ronson cigarette lighter to your Rolex.
I was given the cuckoo clocks to learn on.
Was pulling down watches and cleaning them within the week.
Basicaly was doing everything apart from balance staffs at three months. The watchmaker got married and took three months off.
 

karlmansson

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This has been a good discussion so far and I'll just add that while I understand your qualms about buying "poached" tools, there is more often than not a middle ground. It's really hard to learn something new with bad or wrong tools. But then there will be a point of diminishing returns when you start to approach the proffessional level tooling. One major difference probably lies in the longevity of the tools. For someone that services several hundreds of watches a years, that is a real concern. For me, not so much. I appreciate a well made tool as much as the next man but looking at it for what it is, I would get away with using far less durable tools for the amount of watches I service a year. For example I found a set of screwdrivers called "Suissetek" on ebay when I started out. Not dirt cheap but not Bergeon expensive. The hard part is identifying what is worthwile and what matters in using them. Reviews such as Deweys are very helpful in such cases.

But it also brings up another point: it doesn't matter how much you spent on a tool or how well made it is if you don't maintain it. I see this all the time with all sorts of things. As I went to med school I now have a lot of friends who are practicing doctors and are both starting to make some money and kitting up their first houses and kitchens. It seems very important to most to have a really nice set of knives, probably in some sort if "keeping up with the Johnsons" fashion. I think I've only come across sharp knives in one of those homes, and that is with a guy who is really into cooking. I got away with a 10 dollar IKEA knife and a ceramic honing rod for YEARS. Meanwhile my friends 300 dollar Global sets were just sharp enough to squish a tomato.
Of course, I also fell into the trap a little while ago and got some nicer knives. But I still use the honing rod.

Same goes for watchmaking tools. There is no point in having a 200 dollar Bergeon screwdriver set if the blades are mangled up. Tweezers, same thing. You can turn VERY cheap tweezers into good tweezers that will last you for one service at a time if you dress them correctly. But they won't hold their edges or feel as nice in the hand as Dumont, ASCO or Horotec.

I enjoy making my own tools and I can make them to my own standards and tolerances so maybe I'm biased in terms of tool maintenance as well. But as the old adage goes: take care of your tools and they will take care of you.

So i guess my bottom line is: more expensive tools doesn't make you a better watchmaker. But well serviced tools will increase the chances of you having a good experience using them and making your work less prone to complication. And better quality tools will hold that level of service for longer.

Regards
Karl
 

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