Building Dr Woodward's Gearless Clock - Wilding by C.Raynerd

Discussion in 'Clock Construction' started by Raynerd, Jun 12, 2011.

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  1. Those little pulleys look very nice, Chris.
    It sounds like you had to puzzle it out for a while, but you got it! Congratulations on a running movement. That's great!
     
  2. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    Thanks Dean, it is good of you to keep replying, I seem to have quite a few views of this thread but few comments, so thanks again.

    I have to say that I`m struggling like mad to build the daisy motion. I see how it should work but getting the sizes to fit and the ofset of the cam correct is being a nightmare. I`ve wasted a pile of brass so far and many many hours trying to build it!

    Chris
     
  3. I would just assume they are all gobsmacked, Chris. ; )
     
  4. cazboy

    cazboy Registered User

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    Chris, I just found this thread and I've got to tip my hat to you - and I think I'll buy you a pint if we ever meet! You have done beautiful work. You've got a wonderful shop - can you give us a quick list of your machinery? What type of watchmakers lathe is that on your bench?
     
  5. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    Dean, gobsmacked and my work doesn`t go hand in hand. When you look at the work that goes on by others, it blows my mind!

    Cazboy - I appreciate your interest. My workshop is only very small but I must admit it is jam packed with machinary that didn`t cost me a lot. I don`t have a great deal of spare funds so have always looked for a bargain when it comes to my machines and a lot of people have been kind and helped me out!! There are a few pictures of my workshop a year ago on my website www.raynerd.co.uk

    My main machines include a Boxford Model A but for smaller work I use a Peatol (Taig) lathe. I also own a Boley 8mm WW lathe but haven`t had it very long and I`m still practicing on it (ready for a future watch project :eek:). My other main machine is a Chester Conquest Bench Milling Machine (X2 style and size) - it is excellent for a small machine but being small has limitations. My final key machine/tool is a Vertex 4" Rotary Table which I converted to a computer controlled divider so I can now make between 1 and 999 divisions which is ideal for any sort of gears, I use it all the time (again more info on that on my website).

    My other machines are a Kennedy Power Hacksaw which is perfect for tiny work and a tiny workshop. A cheapo grinding machine and belt sander. I have recently aquired a die filer which I can`t wait to use and I also have a small bench drill but really all in this paragraph only get occasional use!

    I hope all that is of interest.

    An update on the clock...

    Well as with last time when I hadn`t posted for a while, it isn`t not because I`ve not been working on it, just struggling!
    For the first time, I`ve gone ahead and made a part without actually understanding how it works and fits together. The daisy wheel is very clever and a video here shows it in action but sadly I still couldn`t visualise it until it was made...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVWd-QedUTY&feature=related

    The basic idea is a daisy shaped wheel running on a cam like action to get your 12:1 reduction. It is an amazing concept since most geared motion works requires a number of gears (two gears would get your 12:1 reduction but would have the hour hand running backwards!) This concept does just use 2 parts, the daisy wheel and pin wheel and gets the 12:1 reduction!!!
    The first part is the pin wheel, you can in theory use 12, 4 or even 2 pin, I went with 4. My filing is improving as is my use of a piercing saw but with this being such a central piece, I wanted a nice finish so marked out with off centre holes and mounted each hole on the arbour in my rotary table to cut the shape:
    60.jpg
    61.jpg
    62.jpg
    I then spent all my time on daisy wheels making 4 attempts in total. I ended up using my first but I am determined to make a better one before I call the clock complete. Just getting the concept to work made me happy but I think now I understand it better, I can make a nicer looking one.
    Marked out the daisy wheel
    63.jpg

    and then no more close ups or details as it looks like a rat chewed it!! All I will say, is that the petals are not needed and are just an added possible problem so get rid of them. I first read that the petals can be removed by looking at a picture sent to gadgetbuilder by Anthony Adams who had "abbreviated" the petals. They are not needed. In action it does appear like the pin wheel is riding the petals but in theory, the pins are simply locating in the "V" of the petals and not riding on the petal top itself.
    Here are all the parts to the daisy wheel including some clock hands that I dug out of my stash which luckly fit.
    64.jpg

    At this point, I could then place the daisy wheel in the pin wheel and locate the pins in some of the bottom daisy "V"s. I could then spin the wheel in the pin wheel and you could observe the 12:1 reduction. The issue was then making a cam with the correct throw. Too much and the pins bind, too little and the pins wouldn`t engage. When I got it somewhere near, the petals tops started causing an issue which is why I lobbed them off in a desperate attempt to get it to run, and I was lucky, and it did!
    The daisy motion is a totally independant unit. At the very back of the pin wheel arbor I have put a piece of bent spring steel with a taper pin behind it. The entire daisy motion is then pushed up against the bent spring steel and a taper pin inserted at the front to hold everything in place. This then acts a clutch allowing you to alter the time as the daisy motion/minute hand is not stuck or screwed to the pin wheel arbor, it is just being held by friction against the spring steel.
    65.jpg

    And finally a video for you:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBcKHPMjlGM&feature=youtu.be

    It has only been running for about 2 hours and is working OK with the hour hand turning nicely. However plenty of time to stop and bind yet!!
    Although my daisy wheel works, it looks a mess and also the "V" between petals is too large, this means the hour hand hangs for a good few minutes without moving rather than a nice gradual progression with the minute hand. It isn`t really noticable but I`ll notice it :dremel:
    Hope you are enjoying the build. I`m certainly enjoying making it!
    Chris
     
  6. Chris, you are quite modest.
    You're doing very well, and I can imagine that many simply don't know what to say seeing a complete movement built from scratch!

    I watched your new vid. It's a cool clock, and fun to watch, too. I think the daisy wheel with the V notches instead of the full
    petals looks somewhat more "clock like", really.
     
  7. tok-tokkie

    tok-tokkie Registered User

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    I have been building a clock intermittently for many years. My initial idea was to hang the weight on the hour shaft and use 2x that daisy wheel type 'gears' to drive the minute & seconds shafts with a 1 second pendulum. So 12:1 & 60:1 . Made the whole thing then found they work fine as speed reducers (your application) but lock solid as speed increasers (my application). Try turning the hour hand on your clock. I had to start again!. My current one still has the drive on the hour shaft with involute gears to the minute shaft & cycloidals to the seconds shaft (replacing the original involutes in the search for less friction).

    I have been checking this thread with interest. Clock is looking good, much better than mine.
     
  8. cazboy

    cazboy Registered User

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    I have to echo the admiration for your work! By the way, thanks for posting some of the machinery in your shop - I'm just newly retired and now have the time to begin outfitting my tiny workshop (it's only 11 feet x 16 feet) and so far I only have a Rivett 2B watchmakers lathe. Fortunately I've acquired lots of tooling for it - collets, sliderest, steadyrest, etc. I don't have much else - I just bought a bench grinder last week. So, I consider you to be quite well equipped!

    I will continue to watch this thread.
     
  9. tom427cid

    tom427cid Registered User
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    Hi Chris,
    I cannot say much more than has already been said.Facinating,absolutely facinating,almost mesmerizing. You have done a great job and should be justly proud.
    tom
     
  10. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    Thanks for the comments guys.

    I just wanted to post this animation that a fellow model engineer, Bill Todd, did for me on another forum I use. It is fantastic and shows exactly how the daisy motion works.
    1.gif
     
  11. Chris, looking at the animation, I can see how the gullets in the daisy work in turning the four pronged wrist joint thing.
    It does kind of give the impression that the petals are moving it along too, if you hadn't pointed out otherwise. Interesting!
    Oh, your shop is huge, Doug! :D Plenty big for getting lots of work done. My little shop is only 8 x 10 feet, and stuffed with
    three lathes, milling machine, drill press and band saw, among other things. You have plenty of room to grow. You'll love it when
    you have it all set the way you want things.
     
  12. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    Disaster - the weights slipped and the jockey weight slammed into the movement. I`ve stripped it and I think I`ve been lucky, just a few bent teeth on the pin wheel which I`ve now straightened but I`m struggling setting it back up to run again. Just a case of more patience getting the pawls straightened out.

    Next job when it is running again - a stop for the jockey weight! :eek:

    Time to cry the rest of the night away. :(
     
  13. Sorry to hear that, Chris. I know you'll get it repaired, but it's kind of disheartening to have it happen to a brand new creation.
    We're rooting for you. Cheer up!

    Dean
     
  14. cazboy

    cazboy Registered User

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    Hi Chris, I'm sorry to hear about the disaster! I hope you can rectify the damage done. Can you imagine the heartache borne by guys like John Harrison during their years of experimentation? I would probably have a heart attack.

    On another note, thanks for your encouraging words about the size of my shop! Wow, your shop is smaller than mine but you have found ways to accommodate a lot of equipment. You know what would be interesting - if you could get one of those "virtual tour" cameras like realtors use on their websites to show their houses for sale. I think they spin around on a tripod and give the website viewer a 360-degree view of the room in question. I've heard they are expensive to rent, though. At any rate, I would love to see how you've laid out your shop.
     
  15. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    Well over 2 weeks since I updated and I can honestly say I`ve been working none stop on the clock with very little to show. The pin wheel had been damaged and some of the pins needed removing and resecuring in place which took a few evenings. I also have been doing a bit of work on the daisy wheel but nothing to show yet. However, I have made more progress on the weight setup shown below.

    I`m doubling over the weights to give me a shorted pendulum drop per day. This requires two more pulleys making (shown in the second to last picture) and also a new jockey weight with a pully.

    Here goes, sorry, too many photos really but I took them so may as well post them...

    I took this piece of brass someone kindly donated to me a few weeks ago and turned it to a good finish.
    6.jpg

    I then cut a groove in the end:
    7.jpg

    I then took a piece of brass bar to make the end cap. I always always struggle making something a friction fit, I`m always either just too big or just too small. So this time I turned a little lip at the end and turned it down until the bar would "just" fit with a bit of pushing into the groove. I then backed out 2 thou and parted off a disk:
    8.jpg

    Used a bit of loctite and hammered it in place. Popped it back in the late and faced the end flush. You can`t see the joint!
    9.jpg

    I then made a screw on lid so that I can add lead weights as needed:
    10.jpg

    The hole in the lid is for a lever bar to screw the lid on and off, which is why the drill is in there... a good way to snap drills 1.gif
    11.jpg

    I then made the pulley for on the top.
    12.jpg
     
  16. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    Made a screw for the pulley axle:
    13.jpg

    14.jpg

    Then I made the pulley holder which I decided was too big, so the black mark is where I decided to chop it in half!
    15.jpg

    16.jpg

    17.jpg

    18.jpg

    Here is the new pulley layout:
    19.jpg

    I`m going to have to make my weight narrower than I thought. Adding the extra loop in the pulley setup has thrown the chords nearer so they will clash if I make the master weight much wider than the dia of the master weight pulley. The clock is running now, so once I have the weight that works, I`ll make it from brass solid.

    20.jpg

    Just for interest sakes, here is the modified back stop on a new bracket. Works much better than the one mounted on the bridge itself. I managed to plug and polish the holes from the previously drilled backstop pawl on the bridge.

    21.jpg


    This setup actually works much much better as there must be extra friction around the additional pulleys which means the master weight can be much heavier giving a better impulse. Still running 12 hours on and took very little fiddling this time...
     
  17. Glad you got it repaired, Chris. Your turnings are looking very good!
     
  18. cazboy

    cazboy Registered User

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    Go, Chris, go! The pulley on the weight looks fantastic. So does the weight!
     
  19. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    Cheers guys, it has been running for 2 days now with no problem so sadly tonight it willl be dismantled for more work!

    Chris
     
  20. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    I`ve found somewhere to water jet cut a glass dial. I have mocked it out in cardboard just get an idea of sizes. Please bear in mind that it will be totally glass so I think it won`t look quite as big as it currently does.

    59.jpg

    60.jpg

    I sent the glass off this morning with the following plans:
    61.jpg
     
  21. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    Picked the glass up this evening and very chuffed, they had done all three pieces! Looks amazing in person...pictures do it zero justice. Looks plastic on the photos but is clearly glass and has a green edge in the light! I couldn`t be more pleased.

    70.jpg

    71.jpg

    Perhaps a little over the top, but I made a little video as sometimes the video function on this cheap camera gives a more life like shot that the still photos...gives you an idea!

    http://www.youtube.com/v/tdpm69WNeWc&rel=1

    Need to find a dial painter now!
     
  22. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    I made a massive step this evening. The daisy wheel has been a source of problems for weeks. Infact, the truth is my first attempt was simply to prove that the principle worked but I`ve added a bearing, changed some dimensions to fit my clock and it has never really be right, often skipping hours or jamming up.

    So I went about planning cutting a new wheel. I`ve been buying lots of sheet brass for my project and it is causing a dent in my wallet. With my new found "parting" skills - I stumbled across a 2 3/4" brass bar at the scrap yard, 5" long. Even with enough to hold in the chuck jaws and the waste removed with parting. It is going to be much cheaper parting off brass blanks from this rather than cutting disks from sheet brass. Anyway, I cut myself a blank and then decided the ID must be 34mm to allow the pin wheel to go to full depth in the wheel and the outside diameter 40mm to give enough wall to each "V" to allow the pin to bounce/drive properly.

    I`ve cut the other two attempts using a form tool in a fly cutter as I would when trying to cut a gear but this wheel is really thick at 2.5mm!! and there is just too much vibration and material. The plans say to cut by hand anyway so I decided to mark out and cut the notches. I had to work out my angles and then used my CNC divider to mark the points, joining them up with a ruler:

    109.jpg

    I cut each one by hand:
    110.jpg

    I then checked all the markings and filed to size which took a good few hours. The pin wheel was binding and I thought all was lost but then realised that the 75deg angle I had used, hadn`t taken into account the radius on the "full" daisy wheel plans - I`m cutting my daisy petals short on purpose as they serve no use other than providing an opportunity for the pins to bind!

    So I rounded the corners. It looks more like a daisy now but the plans call for accurate radius on each petal as though the pin is following the tips of the petals. I`ve just rounded mine up to look nice, the important bit is the 75deg notch along with the slight radius of the edge leading into the notch.

    111.jpg

    I then speeded up the process of checking the daisy motion by putting it into the lathe and it seemed to work just fine! I`ve installed it on the clock and it has been running for 3 hours with no problem, which is longer than my previous two attempts! I`ve got a half decent feeling about this one... 2.gif


    http://www.youtube.com/v/icwXASWg0R0&rel=1

    Just the master weight now....although a clockmaker who has given me a lot of advice doesn`t like my jockey weight and pulley so it looks like I`ll have to remake it! The I`m on to working with the brown woody stuff!! 2.gif


    3.gif
     
  23. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    my case was finished and I collected it yesterday!! A local clockmaker and cabinet maker kindly did the work for me for not much more than the wood cost and I am just blown away with it. He has been giving me advice for the last 6 months and it was great of him to offer to help me out.

    It is made from solid oak and the back is made from ash. It is 10" wide and only 3" deep, being about 5 foot high. It is made to be mounted like a synchronome case, about 1 foot off the floor on the wall. I had to get the glass cut today and I fitted it into the door, taking the photos earlier tonight. I couldn`t have dreamed for a nicer case in terms of wood colour, design or quality!

    I`ll take some more photos in the next week when the clock is mounted on the wall....

    75.jpg
     
  24. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    How would you guys mount the brass clock plate to the case back? There is a lot of weight on it with both the weights and the pendulum hanging from it. The safest way would be to drill through the case back and then mount bolts through the entire lot - obviously tastefully done so the screw heads are looking nice on the plate front. BUT if I do that, then the nuts will be on the back and ideally I wanted to mount it flush to the wall. The synchronome I have is mounted in the same way but then has battons on the back pulling the clock off the wall by about 10mm which gives room for the nuts. I don`t think the case back is thick enough to countersink for the nuts....have I any other options?
     
  25. Allan Wolff

    Allan Wolff Moderator
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    The case looks great! I like that it is shallow and does not protrude a long way from the wall.

    Since you will need a bracket to mount the case to the wall, is it possible to combine both needs into one solution? The wall bracket could be made the same width as the mounting plate so the same bolts go through the back mounting plate, case back and bracket. Then the mounting plate will be supported by the wall bracket and not the case back. Working from there, the bolts could be flat head machine screws that enter from the back with fancy nuts on the inside. That would require very little clearance on the back if the flat head screws are countersunk into the bracket. Alternately, the plate could be threaded so no nuts are required. Another alternative would be to thread the wall bracket and have the screws enter from the clock plate side with the heads visible from the front. This would also require little to no clearance on the back except for the bracket, which would need to be thick enough to provide adequate threads.

    If you will not have a bracket on the back and want the clock to hang flush with the wall, you could recess some thin strips of metal into the back and bring some flat head screws in through the strips from the back. The strip could also have a center hole to receive the wall mounting bolt.

    You could also use tee nuts on the mounting plate bolts which will give you a flush surface on the back of the clock. Search the internet for images of tee nuts to see how these work.

    Barring all of that fiddling, I think you will find that several short wood screws will hold a lot of weight. Most of the force from the mounting plate will be pulling down in a shearing direction rather than attempting to pull the screws straight out of the wood.

    That is just a few options. Based on the ingenuity you have shown building the clock, I am sure you will come up with a great solution.
    Allan
     
  26. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Hi
    Or, build the bracket such that the case hanges
    on the bracket. The bracket would have 3 large
    feet that there would be holes through the case.
    Spread the load on the back with a plate of
    steel. Relief the wood for any back material
    by router.
    After all, it is an unconventional clock.
    Just thinking.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  27. tok-tokkie

    tok-tokkie Registered User

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    I agree that minimising the amount it sticks out from the wall is best. Three or four Rawl bolts in the wall with the bolts going right through the clock back plate & the clock case holding everything against the wall. A two man job to hang it though another bolt to hold just the case to the wall would fix that.
    Two problems: 1. How do you level it side to side? 2. How do you level it front to back?

    I think the simple but elegant case compliments the minimal clockwork well.
     
  28. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    Thank you for your replies and sorry for the delay. I`m slightly out of action after dropping a milling machine on my finger on my right hand! It hurt like and hell and swelled to twice the size. That being said, it is a fine fine Swiss made Rawyler mini horizontal milling machine for pinion cutting so I will let it off and it can most certainly stay!!!!

    Well I`ve read all your replies and Allan, I didn`t consider a backing plate.


    In some of the earlier pictures, you can see that the clock back plate has 3 screws, 2 at the top and 1 at the bottom. My current plan is to drill and tap some 1/4" steel plate with two threaded holes matching the clock plate. I`ll then clearence drill the clock case and using the 1/4" steel plate, use this to clamp up the backplate to the case back. I can cut another square piece of 1/4" steel as an over sized nut for the single lower screw to hold it solid.


    Screwing to the wall I`ll do like I have with my synchronome and drill directly into my solid wall but hide the two screws up in the top left and right of the case which will be covered by the arch of the door. IF I require it, I could put another nicer screw in the bottom middle but I don`t think it`ll need it!

    I`ll let you know how I go!
    Chris
     
  29. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    A big more progress... It has all been gold plated and in my opinion looks great for it. I`m never very pleased with my work and I must say this looks smashing and it is so difficult to get a good picture of it! The gold is so well polished and reflective that I just get glare but then with such dull winter days, I still need a flash! Anyway, I think you`ll get the idea.

    Here goes...hope you like it.

    Clock mounted on the wall without weights and pulleys
    170.jpg

    I`ve just finished making two brass countersunk washers to replace the large ugly steel washers but I took the picture earlier today:
    171.jpg


    172.jpg

    I think this shows off the gold plating the best! I`m very please with it and a good skill to have learnt and the kit wasn`t much more than I`d have paid to have it plated by someone else.
    173.jpg

    174.jpg

    175.jpg


    So things to do/finish:

    1. Fit the new brass washers.
    2. Blue some of the screws and find some M4 screws that can be blued!
    3. Make new pulleys for the weights.
    4. Get the new dial numbered.

    Feels good to have it on the wall and running!
     
  30. Allan Wolff

    Allan Wolff Moderator
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    Great job! The gold plating looks extremely nice. Could you tell us a little about the plating process?
    I am looking forward to seeing what you have planned for numbering the dial.
    Thanks for sharing,
    Allan
     
  31. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    Hi Alan

    Yes, I got quoted for getting the whole clock gold plated and the price wasn`t far off what I could have paid for the chemicals and to get set up. So that is what I did!

    I purchased a variable voltage power supply and then made a stainless steel electrode. Purchased a "gold plating solution" which was £50 for only 100ml and also mixed myself some activator acid. So the parts must be highly polished - the finish of the plating is only as good as the finishing before. First step is to chemically clean and use the activator at about 7v 0.4A, clean really well in deionised water and then tank plate (brush plate for large parts) in the gold solution at about 5-6V and about 0.2A. The process is really slow but increasing the voltage didn`t give me as good a finish.

    In all honesty, I`ve advertised my services of gold plating in a few local notice boards and on the net just while I recoup some of the setup costs. I can gold, silver, nickle and copper plate.

    Regarding numbering the dial, I must admit, other than the case it will be the only other thing that I`ll have done elsewhere. I`m going to send it to a dial painter and see what comes back!!

    Thanks for your interest.

    Chris
     
  32. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    I moved house and pulled the clock down and have just reinstalled it. I`m posting to see if anyone else has built this clock - I`d be interested to know how you have installed the motion works to allow easy rewinding?

    [video=youtube;BE1OcedPnRg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE1OcedPnRg[/video]
     
  33. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I've just read the whole thread start to finish, fascinating. As I'm following your orrery thread it was very interesting to see how your skills have developed over time excellent stuff, thanks for posting.
     
  34. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

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    Teacher of Chemistry
    Manchester - UK
    Country Flag:
    Thank you. Yes, skills are improving but I must admit, I disagree with the saying 'a poor workman blames his tools". I've upgraded quite a bit of my equipment and some of the processes are now far easier. Then again, you could say that is due to time and experience as well!! Still a hell of a way to go.
     
  35. Styrofoam_Guy

    Styrofoam_Guy Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 21, 2008
    107
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    18
    Toronto, Ontario
    Interesting thread. I am also following the orrery thread. I also want to build my own clock and am looking at what is out there.
     
  36. Raynerd

    Raynerd Registered User

    Apr 11, 2004
    339
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    Teacher of Chemistry
    Manchester - UK
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    Thank you. I personally wouldn't advise this as a first clock as there a better alternatives out there. Don't get me wrong, it's a cracking timepiece and build but tricky to get running and not really representative of many clock builds! Just my opinion...
     

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