Broken Teeth, What are my options

[kevin21]

While working on a New Haven Gingerbread clock movement, I though I had captured the strike mainspring in a ring but when I pulled the plates a part it exploded. The ring captured the mainspring but was bent outward. The mainspring isn't broken. I was able to wind it onto another ring.

But after the dust settled, I have broken teeth on the S2 wheel. The first picture shows the 4 broken teeth. The second shows the overall wheel.

While I have never fixed teeth, I know that is a possibility. Any ideas for finding someone who can? I assume I should not try it myself. Or what is the likelihood of finding a wheel like this to replace it? I don't know how common this wheel would be when looking for old movements to scavenge.

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[bikerclockguy]

Have you looked at this one? There‘s no clear pic of S2, or one that shows the whole wheel, but looks like it might be the same one. New Haven 8 Day Time / Strike Rear Mount Clock Movement W/ Alarm Spring Broke | eBay

 

[Willie X]

I've never seen a broken tooth pattern like that. Did it drop and strike something? Just curious ...

These movements are fairly common and often it's best to look for a complete parts movement rather than individual part/s.

Willie X

 

[kevin21]

Bikerclockguy, that looks like the right movement. Thanks!! I bought it...

Willie, the wheel went flying and certainly hit something, it was on the ground when I found it.

Thanks guys. We'll see if I can make the new movement work.

Kevin

 

[Schatznut]

I feel your pain, Kevin. We've all had that happen before.

 

[R. Croswell]

How is the main wheel? Never seen a 2nd. wheel get ripped up like that. Also check the pinion on the next arbor.

RC

 

[Brunod]

If you have brass thick enough and nothing to loose, you should give a try to repair it. You just need a saw, file and solder tin.

 

[Carl Bergquist]

It looks like several other teeth are "iffy". The replacement route sure is a good option but don't be afraid of filing some new teeth. It really is not that hard and that wheel is large enough to make the job easier. Good luck.

 

[kevin21]

RC, everything else is fine. I think Willie X's idea was correct, the damage came when the wheel flew off the movement and hit something in my office, like my clock stand or a stack of bricks I have (not sure why those are there)...

Yes, Carl there are a couple other teeth that have issues.

Brunod, I probably have the brass, as i have a bunch of old wheels, and your picture inspires me. I think I even have the holder device in your picture from gear I inherited from my father-in-law. I have a soldering iron. The solder I have is rosin-core solder for electrical soldering. I assume I would need a different type of solder, is that true? What type is best for brass? What should it look like when it is soldered in place?

 

[Dick C]

If I didn't want to deal with it, I would contact Richard Cox at www.fendley-cox.com

 

[R. Croswell]

RC, everything else is fine. I think Willie X's idea was correct, the damage came when the wheel flew off the movement and hit something in my office, like my clock stand or a stack of bricks I have (not sure why those are there)...

Yes, Carl there are a couple other teeth that have issues.

Brunod, I probably have the brass, as i have a bunch of old wheels, and your picture inspires me. I think I even have the holder device in your picture from gear I inherited from my father-in-law. I have a soldering iron. The solder I have is rosin-core solder for electrical soldering. I assume I would need a different type of solder, is that true? What type is best for brass? What should it look like when it is soldered in place?

Theoretically, if you achieve a good dovetail fit, the solder is only there to keep the part from slipping and isn't really under much load so you can probably get away with what you have. A good liquid flux (what comes for use with TIX works for most solders on brass) will work better than flux core radio solder. 95/5 plumber's solder is good if you can find it. Low temp silver solder is good. TIX is the easiest to use but I have found it has low shear strength. Don't use flux core radio solder and liquid flux at the same time.

RC

 

[Brunod]

...
Brunod, I probably have the brass, as i have a bunch of old wheels, and your picture inspires me. I think I even have the holder device in your picture from gear I inherited from my father-in-law. I have a soldering iron. The solder I have is rosin-core solder for electrical soldering. I assume I would need a different type of solder, is that true? What type is best for brass? What should it look like when it is soldered in place?

Do not pay too much attention at my pict, it was just to show the idea. Mine was from a pocket watch wheel. The solder as long as it is tin is not that important either. It is just to "glue" the part and avoid it to glide out of the wheel. It must be hold in place through it's shape only. Do not use an iron but a flame to heat faster.

 

[kevin21]

Thanks RC and Brunod! Yes, I do have a small flame as well. Didn't think about that...

 

[roughbarked]

Thanks RC and Brunod! Yes, I do have a small flame as well. Didn't think about that...

You've had some good advice here. It is good to practice skills on jobs like this.

 

[Antique Scopes]

I never trusted just solder when I added a strip of teeth, I made small rivets and installed them after the solder was holding it in place. but the best practice would be to cut a new wheel. If you can't do that, make a strip of teeth with dovetails on each end, and in the middle, if possible if there is room. Kind of like my crude picture. It takes some finesse, but it will hold.

 

[bikerclockguy]

I’ve been following this thread with interest, as that‘s a repair I haven’t tried yet myself. I get the concept, and I have a question. I think I could cut a piece out of an old wheel, and with a dremel or a coping saw with a metal blade, make the dovetails on my repair piece. But what do you guys use to cut the ”female“ part of the dovetail in the wheel to be repaired. Do you make the 2 angle cuts, and then bend the tab down and grind/file it off?

 

[roughbarked]

It really does help to both have a jeweller's saw and skill with it. The dremel is a useful tool to make things go more quickly but sometimes hand work seems to take less off each time. Helps to make it fit better.

 

[bikerclockguy]

It really does help to both have a jeweller's saw and skill with it. The dremel is a useful tool to make things go more quickly but sometimes hand work seems to take less off each time. Helps to make it fit better.

I have some junk wheels in my parts bin. Think I’ll practice on a couple of them. Thanks!

 

[Mike Phelan]

But what do you guys use to cut the ”female“ part of the dovetail in the wheel to be repaired. Do you make the 2 angle cuts, and then bend the tab down and grind/file it off?

I use a dental saw to cut the entire dovetail, then file the two corners as they will be slightly rounded.

 

[Brunod]

I use a jeweller saw. The dovetail is then filed. But the size is small.Here the tooth was about 1-2 mm. It's the center wheel of a pocket watch.

 

[R. Croswell]

I’ve been following this thread with interest, as that‘s a repair I haven’t tried yet myself. I get the concept, and I have a question. I think I could cut a piece out of an old wheel, and with a dremel or a coping saw with a metal blade, make the dovetails on my repair piece. But what do you guys use to cut the ”female“ part of the dovetail in the wheel to be repaired. Do you make the 2 angle cuts, and then bend the tab down and grind/file it off?

You will only need one dovetail. When you cut out the broken teeth the notch should have sloping ends such that the bottom of the notch is wider than the opening. I jeweler's saw (very inexpensive from www.timesavers.com) is the tool to use along with files. Shape the blank to fit snug in the notch you cut (the dovetail) and solder it in place so it won't slip out. If you have a lathe, you can turn the gear to a uniforn diameter, then cut the new teeth. If the "patch" holds up to turning and cutting the teeth, it should be good to go.

Looks like you will need two inserts with 2 or 3 teeth each. I would use blank brass and cut the teeth. If you are thinking about cutting a section from a scrap wheel with teeth already cut, that can be done but it can be challenging to get both the first and last tooth of the insert spaced correctly.

The third option, if it is your own clock, and if you plan to replace the damaged wheel someday, and if you consider the repair temporary, and if you can get past the ugly, you can remove the damaged teeth and cut a section from a scrap wheel and place it over the damaged section and solder in in place. On a clock like this, the extra thickness usually isn't a problem and it should run just fine, but it will look like crap........ but it is ought of sight and who has to know? I won't tell!

RC

 

[Antique Scopes]

I would add that it is imperative that you lay the cut strip of the replacement wheel section on a good, undamaged section of your wheel to make positive they match. "Close" won't do. I'm mad at myself for not finding something. I looked last night and this morning, I looked in so many drawers and cabinets I upset my motion sickness. The drawing in the picture does not do them justice - I had some pieces like this you would make in watchmaking/jewelry school. They teach patience, help develop skill in using tiny saws, files, and other tools. I had two of the clock lathes from Elgin Watchmaking Co, one was set up for cutting teeth. I cut hundreds of wheels. I think this is the best solution, to make a new wheel, but obviously everybody does not have the tooling. I did use sections of old wheels sometimes, I think it ended up being harder and more time consuming than making a whole wheel.
By the way - I still have thousands of drill bits from Elgin. Some are so small you won't believe they are drills. I have a few other things, some tiny taps and screws, maybe some other stuff. If anybody is interested contact me.

 

[heifetz17]

I’m also interested in this topic as several repairs I have yet to attempt include teeth, pivot, and lantern pinion replacements.

On the other hand I’m sure many of us have a drawer or container of some sort full of parts movements. For as cheaply and easily as parts moments can be obtained is it not easier to just replace a damaged wheel rather than the labor involved in such repairs, especially if you already have the correct parts movement on hand?

 

[Raymond101]

Some interesting ideas. I have just replaced 4 teeth on a French carriage clock. I used brass wire hammer into a zig zag to fill the space then used 35% silver solder. Then used 2 feeler guages to measure the spaces .
Maybe not the correct way but if it works. I also found that solder paste works well . It's made up of lead,tin & silver . Melting temp 190c .
The blacked area are the new teeth.
The quality of photos are difficult to see as the brass & silver are really shiny

 

[kevin21]

Just to close the loop as the author of this thread...

As I said, I bought the movement bikerclockguy gave me a link to. Thanks to him I was able to get a good replacement S2 wheel. The clock is back together and keeping decent time, though I still have an issue with the strike. No biggie, just gotta make some adjustments.

Thanks to everyone for the help.

And now I have an extra movement for parts or if I get brave I can repair the broken teeth on my original S2 wheel and have a spare movement!

Kevin