Broken pivot - broken drill bit

Discussion in 'Watch Repair' started by gocush, Sep 2, 2017.

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  1. gocush

    gocush Registered User

    Jun 24, 2016
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    Well, I did it this time. The pivot was broken so I drilled out the arbor end .031 thousandths for a new pivot but on the LAST pass the bit broke off inside the new hole!!!. :argument:
    I've tried extracting the tip of the bit with a magnet, tweezers, etc but no cigar.

    This pinion is solid (machined) and very close to the end of the arbor.
    I may not have the tools at this point to remove the wheel and make a new arbor/ pinion, though this may be my only option now. If there is a way to recover at this stage, I'd like to try. Otherwise, I may need to outsource this one.
    Any suggestions?[​IMG]
     
  2. gocush

    gocush Registered User

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    Well, I'm finding other posts now indicating that sooner or later, others do the same:

    Quote from back around 2006:

    Bang,don't give up on those carbide bits,they're great bits if you take it slow and steady.One thing I've come to find out is when you are absolutely sure your hole is deep enough and you say to yourself,"Aah,what the hell,I'll give it one more shot and make my hole a little deeper"DON"T!.For some unknown reason those bits will refuse to go any deeper than necessary to do the job and if you force the issue they'll snap off just to spite you.At least thats been my experiences with them but I still like them. :biggrin:
    Respectfully,Bob Fullerton
     
  3. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    Sorry to hear about your problem.

    I don't think you can soften a carbide drill to drill it out. I would probably use the lathe and cut the arbor so you have some part of the broken carbide drill sticking out. You should be able to grab that part and pull the broken drill out.

    You then need to drill a new/deeper hole and you need to cut a new plug to replace both the pivot and the part of the arbor you cut away.

    I have done this for certain arbors where the difference between the broken part and the remaining arbor is very small. Typically on center wheel arbors where the canon pinion part of the arbor has been broken off!
     
  4. gocush

    gocush Registered User

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    You know I'm not certain whether my broken bit is carbide or HSS. I pulled it out of a box I picked up at a flea market. Right now I'm trying a trick mentioned in another thread: I filed off the EYE end of a sewing needle to make a tiny fork, then inserted it with a small amount of locktite into the flutes/ grooves of the drill bit fragment. I'll let it set awhile then try to extract the bit.

    I've also read about Merritt's "Quick Pivots" part P915 that are attached to the end of an arbor shaft after proper sizing. They have pre-formed pivots on one end. I don't have sufficient arbor shaft left to press fit one of these "caps" on but might be able to solder it? hmmm. steel to steel. Not sure if I can get it to hold. What kind of solder would work best ? ..... Or maybe JB Weld?

    This gear is T-4 so the lateral force is somewhat diminished.
     
  5. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

    Apr 20, 2013
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    Not sure it would make any difference whether it's carbide or HSS. Tungsten carbide behaves more like a ceramic and cannot be tempered. The beaty of HSS is that is will retain it's hardness and cutting edge even at high temperatures, hence "High Speed Steel". It will turn blue without losing hardness.

    Twisting and pulling the bit out is probably your best bet, although I think many would argue that it's a lost cause. This is a repair, at least in watches, that should not be performed unless you know that you can source, or make, a spare part.

    For fitting the pivots you're probably best off using cylindrical lock with a light friction fit. Soldering will temper you parts.

    Best of luck!
     
  6. gocush

    gocush Registered User

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    Thanks Karl, since there is no part of the drill bit sticking out of the new hole, I have only one way to "grab" hold of it -- If the sewing needle trick doesn't work, I will have to remove some of the arbor in a lathe to access the broken bit. That may be my next step.

    Can anybody tell me how to find a replacement arbor and gear in case that is needed. Thanks
     
  7. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi gocush,

    I think your best course is to do what Skutt suggested in post #3. Soldering or an adhesive won't work here. If all else fails, try talking to David LaBounty, who's a member here.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  8. dAz57

    dAz57 Registered User

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    I've had some success chipping them out with a gramaphone needle, tungsten is quite brittle, I chip away at it and break it up with the needle, eventually the bits come out
     
  9. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    Gocush
    I would agree with machining the arbor back to the pinion allowing you to grab the drill for removal as Skutt suggested. I have done this type thing in the past with success. The arbor is then replaced as part of a machined one piece pivot.


    It would appear that you are using a Sherline Lathe for this project, so I would like to make a suggestion for future use. One of the ways to control drill breakage is with very fine feed rate control with tailstock leadsscrew offering the greatest advantage. However, even greater control can be had utilizing the Sherline Lathe by utilizing the large handwheel used on other equipment and accessories. The size difference can be seen in the attached photos. Its larger size will allow much more control and slower feed rates reducing the chance of drill breakage. A small drop of cutting fluid also helps.

    Jerry Kieffer
     
  10. gocush

    gocush Registered User

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    Jerry, are you speaking of the RED wheel as the "larger handwheel?"

    Yes, I am using a Sherline and cutting oil with VERY slow manual fingertip feed but on the cross slide wheel to feed the drill bit. The exposed end of the bit was less that .250 " and I had drilled almost .080" under magnification before it broke. I repeatedly went in and out (12-15 times) removing filings. The videos I have seen suggest a depth of 2-3 times the diameter of the pivot so I should have stopped while ahead.

    So, now as Shutt advised, I will cut off the end of the arbor exposing some of the bit, then re-drill and add a new plug. I'll let you know how this works. Thanks.
     
  11. praezis

    praezis Registered User

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    I had successfully used the method of post #8. Works only with carbide drills (test the remnant of your drill): smash the broken part to little pieces with a cylindrical hard arbor that fits into the hole.

    Frank
     
  12. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Just curious, your talking about the standard gramophone needle like the kind for latterly cut Victor records? But you could also be talking about tungsten tipped ones called "Tungs-tone" and then there is Edison which uses a diamond on the diamond disc records which are cut "Hill and Dale". Fairly sure your not talking about any cylinder player. :) (My apology, love the gramophones too).

     
  13. gocush

    gocush Registered User

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    Jerry, as the expert on Sherline, or others as you wish, can you tell me how to set up the cross slide so that it's gib doesn't come into contact with the steady rest, thereby preventing it from getting close enough to allow me to cut the arbor, as in this photo? As I turn the X axis lead screw, I am unable to move the cutting tool far enough to the left. Thanks.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. gocush

    gocush Registered User

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    Maybe I figured it out: rotate the tool holder 90 deg left, then switch cutters to the right hand? cutter. But this leaves the cutter extended further than I am used to. And I want to avoid vibration of the tool. Suggestions?
     
  15. gocush

    gocush Registered User

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    Jerry, I'm a little confused when you said "the arbor is then replaced as part of a machined one piece pivot." If I replace the ARBOR, why would I take the trouble to remove the broken drill bit from the old arbor? Did you mean "replace the arbor end with a new extension/pivot"? Please clarify. Thanks.
     
  16. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    Gocush

    You can rotate the tool holder 90 degrees as shown in the first photo without issue. It is many times more rigid than required for this type work. However I use brazed carbide lathe tools rather than HSS as they will machine harder steel arbors much more easily.

    Sorry about the unclear pivot explanation. The second photo shows the pivot that I would personally machine as a replacement after the original was machined to remove the broken drill.

    Also, from an earlier post, the red wheel was the one i was suggesting for Micro drilling. While not required, it produces the least harsh micro drill feed rate than any other Machine that I own.

    Jerry Kieffer
     
  17. dAz57

    dAz57 Registered User

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    Yes the standard steel use once needles, Songster brand.
     
  18. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Hey Jerry. Could you elaborate on the brazed carbide lathe tools, I am wondering if there are small drill bits made like this? I have been purchasing the cheap Chinese pc board carbide bits. The size ranges are wonderful but the touchy brittleness makes it still very questionable. Almost like trying to drill with glass. Is the brazed carbide more significantly stronger and does anybody sell our sized bits?

    RJ

     
  19. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    Personally, I do not use Chinese tooling of any type on anything of value. I only use high quality tooling designed for the job at hand from reputable machine tool suppliers since it simplifies life as well as reducing time and overall cost. I am not aware of any carbide tipped micro drills.

    Again personally, I use only USA made 1/4" brazed carbide lathe tools AR-4, AL-4 and E-4 for most OD work including the smallest micro machining. For the smallest work, I do prefer Micro-100 brand AR and AL. All are used as they come from the factory for all materials from wood to the toughest metal that is machinable and are also available from machine tool suppliers.

    Jerry Kieffer
     
  20. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Thanks for your info Jerry. What I am looking for is better drill bits in the range of .3mm to 1.2mm carbide micro drill bits.
    Do any of the reputable dealers make bits in these sizes even if only HSS or something suitable for drilling watch arbors?
    The carbide allows me to avoid the process of annealing/softening so to drill. I can do the annealing but what I have found is that most of the small Mascot type bits found on ebay are dulled out over the years (old) and difficult to sharpen at that size. I just end up spinning with no progress. The carbides work wonderful but do break very very easy especially at this small. It's like a 50-50 chance that it succeeds or breaks. RJ


     
  21. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    #21 Jerry Kieffer, Sep 4, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017

    RJ
    First, very little of any practical quality tooling will be found in the Horological repair community with the exception of specialized collets and an occasional hand tool.

    Thus, you must move to the outside world of machine tools as used by the manufacturing community including Horological.

    The key to success with tooling is to use the tools designed for specific jobs. The circuit board drill is an excellent example. It is specifically designed to drill circuit boards and the spiral is designed to auger out dust and not metal chips. The Chips bind and cause the drills to break when utilized for metal.

    Of course, micro drill suppliers supply drills for whatever is required down to .001". The following link is just one example showing drills for various applications including hard steels to 68 rockwell hardness. Horological movements are nothing special and large in comparison to some other instruments where these suppliers supply ones needs including Horological manufacturers.


    http://www.harveytool.com/cat/Miniature-Drills/Holemaking---Threading/Browse-Our-Products_275.aspx


    It is best to contact a large distributor such as MSC and others and discuss your needs.

    A couple of things to keep in mind.

    Cheap poor quality tools or the wrong tool will be the most expensive you ever purchase.

    You must have equipment designed to utilizes the tooling you purchase for consistent results. For example, the typical factory stock collet holding tailstock Watchmakers Lathe design, is not sensitive enough for consistent micro drilling success in the hands of most.

    Follow the manufactures recommendations for the highest success rate. No manufacturing recommendations, forget it.

    Never place yourself at a disadvantage

    Jerry Kieffer

    I almost forgot, always spot drill before drilling. See spotting drills in the link.
     
  22. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Thanks Jerry, awesome info and much appreciated...!!!
    Will do some consulting with manufactures (MSC and related) to see what they can help me with.
    RJ


     
  23. geo.ulrich

    geo.ulrich Registered User

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    Jerry, Wouldn't be great if they made straight flute carbide micro drills, much less breakage due to torqueing of spiral flutes...
     
  24. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    Geo.

    If a drill is properly designed, properly utilized and of high quality, it should not break. Unfortunately our fingers are rarely sensitive enough to prevent micro drill breakage so we need mechanical assistance.

    As such, if our machine tool is capable of utilizing the micro drill (Proper RPM, proper feed rate, no runout, proper alignment etc.) one can be successful on a consistent basis. Actually, in many cases it is a properly designed flute that prevents the drill from breaking.

    However, there are several types of single flute micro drills available but you must ask for what you desire. The following link is just one example.

    http://www.najet.com

    Since you are in the Ill. area, there will be a machine tool show in the Milwaukee area Oct 3-5 where they will no doubt have on display what you are looking for.

    Link as follows.


    http://www.epishows.com/wmts/

    Jerry Kieffer
     
  25. geo.ulrich

    geo.ulrich Registered User

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    Jerry, Thanks for the invite unfortunately I am at the other end of state in southern Ill. As for the straight vs. helixed flute drills, I make extrusion dies. found it much more cost effective to drill AFTER heat treating generally 60 Rc thin walled bushing around .125 wall went from helix to straight flute drills all but stopped breaking. these are relatively small .030 diameter......well not really small ...
     
  26. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    I keep forgetting your the Master Machinist.

    I use various types of drills for various types of projects sometimes down to .001". Of course some perform better than others but for the work that I do, I rely on the machines to protect the drills. On the Sherline Mill for the smallest micro drills, I use a 8" disc on the feed axis hand wheel whatever one it is along with a Zeiss Microscope for optical observation.

    For those who may not be familiar with straight flute drills, the one in the attached photo is .005" carbide.

    Jerry Kieffer
     
  27. geo.ulrich

    geo.ulrich Registered User

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    Jerry, Any source you know of for lets say smaller than .020 dia. you know of off hand, I have looked around to no avail. thanks geo. I wouldn't say a master mach. just a wore out toolmaker
     
  28. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    I found brazed carbide tip (with steel shaft) of .35mm. Or .0137... in inch. motovators on ebay sells them.

     
  29. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    I have not ordered micro drills for some time since I have nearly a life time supply. I would suggest calling National Jet (Link in post #24) and discuss your needs.

    Jerry Kieffer
     
  30. rdixiemiller

    rdixiemiller Registered User
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    Try putting the arbor in your ultrasonic cleaner, see if it will shake out any chips that are trapped between the body of the drill bit and the hole you were drilling.

    Might help.
     
  31. geo.ulrich

    geo.ulrich Registered User

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    Thanks I will look them up brazed is almost as good as solid:) I see your in Florida hope you made it out and are safe...
     
  32. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Yep. Everything okee dokee...! I stayed a little further up north but where I live didn't get hit hard. It was funny, but a neighbor told me about the hurricane and I though, ah whatever... then he told me where it was and the wind speed. I booked it to the hardware and bought the wood to cover my windows. Other neighbors driving by where smirking at me a bit when they drove by. Then the day after that they where driving by with eyes a bit wider. Then day after I hear screw-guns buzzing, skillsaws buzzing and hammers pounding away. I was 3 days ahead of them but even I was behind. Guys where fist fighting at the gas stations. People parked their cars in gas lines along the right of the highway. I got in line behind some idiot who decided to do a little grocery shopping during his turn at the pump. The hardware stores where hit hard. I got the last of the screw down anchors and roped all my overhangs. The electricity was out everywhere and still is in a lot of places. The traffic lights the city water out. Accidents everywhere. Cars flooded up to the doors in some areas. The convenience stores that I finally found that where open would let one person in at a time, cash only and had to add up the total by hand. It reminded me of the wild wild west. For a joke I said, "I'll think I'll need a bag of oats for my mule", that got a good laugh.

    We have power back on now and man it's an eye opener how much we depend upon it. I found that lamp oil is a good thing to have on hand. Also I bought some solar yard lights. The time I did that the power came back on, but the thinking was to set them together in the yard during the day and take them in for night lights at night. It's not much light but enough so you can walk around in a dim room and see to go to bathroom etc. I have 2 nice wall sconce oil lamps in the kitchen so I can cook meals. But I think the solar is going to work well for the next. Btw, there are 2 more potential storms on way. The Jose is going up north but there are 2 other tropical storms besides him.

    The next thing I am looking into is a hand well pump. The city water system was out for a while. They got it going by running a diesel which gave everybody the illusion that the water situation was fixed, so we drained the tubs and the outside garbage cans (used for toilet flushing water) only to find the water went out again. I see examples of how to make one on youtube out of pvc and that would be nice for toilet/showers/etc.

    When I was concentrating the house I sort of forgot about the bottled water. I got 1 case and it proved to be more than enough but we where only out 4 days on the electric. All the stores basically sold out of nearly everything and things are still low on the supply side. You have to get creative and hunt but the hunting cost gas to drive around.

    So I'm thinking I need some kind of survival water filter thing, one that can purify well water at least.

    The refrigerators being out is another issue. Lucky for me I got a neighbor that still had electricity and let me store the food I have in it. A few hundred dollars of meat/fish/chicken etc. that I'm glad I didn't have to throw away. I was even thinking about salting it and storing it that way.

    At night time was a bit spooky, one eve at around 3am my dogs start barking like crazy. I get the flash light and go to the door and a guy in his truck floors the gas and screeches off quick before I could see who he was. So then every night I got the Coleman pump up lantern out and put it in my driveway so it looked like I had light at the house. Sitting outside was cooler anyway and didn't get much sleep. I have a heavy iron sword about 4ft long for defense. I think I will need some improvement. Even a good bow and arrow would be better.

    I have to do some kind of other arrangement on my window ac units. I use to have 1 central air that handled the whole house but it was not cost effective. The window units are much cheaper to run because you only cool the rooms you use. Thing is when the electric is out then the window ac unit blocks the air flow in the house. For next hurricane I will pull the units out and re-install the screens. No air conditioning or fan is really the roughest part. It gets hot here in Fla. and the lingering heat stays till about 9pm. A small breeze is like a miracle. I find a wet/moist towel helps to wrap around me for sleep.

    I got propane stove and that's a good thing. I understand they make propane refrigerators too. Not sure about the worth while-ness of it, but no refrigerator means nothing cool to drink.

    Thing is, eventually we might all have to do some serious adjusting to our life styles. I get this feeling like something serious is coming our way. Might be all the dumb conspiracy videos I have been indulging in on youtube Ha...! But the old boy scout motto "be prepared" comes to mind. I don't think it hurts to be prepared. Might be that the man upstairs wants us to have a taste of what is coming. So we get an idea of what to expect.

    Somebody once said that civilization is only a thin veneer of a few weeks. What I seen so far, tis true..!

     
  33. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    "Everything okee dokee"...?

    I feel like I just read a diary entry from a zombie novel... I wish you all the best, RJ! Take care.

    Karl
     
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