Brewster & Ingraham

Donald P Bellamy

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Hi, I have a Brewster & Ingraham Beehive clock and can been seen on page 48 of the Ingraham clocks & watch book by Tran Duy Ly.
I am trying to find what the count lever is suppose to look like? I think maybe what I have has been modified in the past. I have taken three pics to try and show what it is I have, any help and maybe a pic would be appreciated alot, thanks.
 

Steven Thornberry

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Read this page carefully to learn how to attach pictures. There id a forum titled "Just Practicing and Learning," which you may use to try your hand at the attachment procedures. Not really difficult if you take it one step at a time.
 

Donald P Bellamy

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I went to manage attachments and when doing so I clicked on browse, clicked on file then upload, the system would tell me upload of file failed?
could the pic be to large?

Checked file jpb size 2100kb to large?
 
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Mr Smith

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Dear Bel Ami,

Browse-> choose the file --> click on "open" --> click on "upload" --> close that window

2100 KB it's too big, max allowed jpg size: 488.3 KB
 

Charles E. Davis

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I was stumped about this strike until I bought a steeple with it so I could really examine it in working condition.
I will attach a photo of how I show it to my class. It is truly unique and uses all of the bells and whistles.
 

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Donald P Bellamy

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can you tell by my pictures if whats there is correct, the count lever looks to be to short, when is is raised it sometimes will bind on the gear thats on the minute arbor and this leveer has been soldered to the arbor. Can you post a pic of yours? thanks
 

Charles E. Davis

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I don’t blame you for being confused by this strike system. When I tried to match your photo up with the drawing I came to the conclusion that my movement couldn’t be the same as yours. But when I took the dial off they are the same.

I took three photos and hoped to show the relationship of the crazy bent levers. Of course the same functions must be done in all strike systems and lever assemblies take care of that. Generally the three assemblies work pretty independently and each one needs to be adjusted on its own in a specific order. Not so with this arrangement.

Of course the same functions have to be there. Clever bending and interfacing allows the strike hammer tail to lift a lateral jog bend in the count hook enough to allow clearance of the teeth as the count wheel is incremented. This eliminates the need of the maintenance cam (to use LaBounty terminology.) The count hook and stop lever work together and the third leg is a limiting lever rather than the cam follower.

The release/warning assembly is one wire bent in a flat plane so that the three functions of center arbor cam follower (J hook), transfer (to release stop hook) and warning are all done with different sections of the same wire.
I haven’t studied the system enough to outline the sequence of adjustments needed to put it all in working order.
My initial problem when faced with a movement in pieces was to try to mount the strike control assembly further from the center arbor than the strike release assembly. The length of the count hook was the initial stumbling block. It was long enough ago and it was someone else’s problem that I don’t know how that one came out. I was on a fall colors trip with my wife and in-laws some years back when I spotted a clock in an antique store on Cape Cod. It was a bit more than I typically paid but I had to have it! Now it sits in a cupboard with no where to put it to use.

 

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Donald P Bellamy

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Notice in my #1 pic, does your movement have the 1" wire/rod
Sticking straight up going no where but up and doing nothing
But acting as a tie off post for the brass spring wire? I hAve no
Problem understanding the working of these levers I just don't
Think the short count lever I have is original or in the
Correct place. A pic from the same angle would be greatly
Appreciated and I do thank you for the time involved here.
My hope is to find what is correct and restore to original,
Just doing enough to make a movement run which it does other than this count lever hanging on occasion isn't satisfactory
Or exceptable, thanks again for your time.
 

Charles E. Davis

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Notice in my #1 pic, does your movement have the 1" wire/rod
Sticking straight up going no where but up and doing nothing
But acting as a tie off post for the brass spring wire? I hAve no
Problem understanding the working of these levers I just don't
Think the short count lever I have is original or in the
Correct place. A pic from the same angle would be greatly
Appreciated and I do thank you for the time involved here.
My hope is to find what is correct and restore to original,
Just doing enough to make a movement run which it does other than this count lever hanging on occasion isn't satisfactory
Or exceptable, thanks again for your time.
Donald,
If I understand what you are referring to it is what I call the limiting lever. Typically and probably takes place of what I call the timing cam follower which is the third leg of the strike control assembly.
 

Donald P Bellamy

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Charlie
The 1" lever sticking straight up on this
movement is only acting as a post to tie off
the spring wire. The limiting lever is on the same
arbor but on the opposite side and is about 1/2
long. It looks like this 1" lever I refer to could have
been part of the count lever originally?
The count lever from where it attaches to the arbor
to the opposite end where it engages the count
wheel is what I am concerned about and was hoping
for a pic showing this.
Seems most of the time determining the adjustments
required is much easer than determining if the correct
parts are there to make such adjustments, which is why
I am having these concerns today, it wasn't a concern
to someone in the past.
 

Charles E. Davis

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I am posting 3 photos that show more detail about the interaction of the three assemblies involved:
Strike release/warning control
Strike control
Strike Hammer
The interesting thing about this unique movement is using one lever instead of three for the strike release/warning.
The strike control using the stop hook interface with hammer tail instead of a cam follower to allow the incrementing of the count wheel.
Also the drive of the countwheel by friction of the pinion on the next arbor.
Sorry I haven't time tonight to go into more detail.
Hope this helps.
 

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Donald P Bellamy

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Thanks Charlie for the pics, all looks to be the same except
the end of my hammer tail is straight which is allowing it to
be drawn back farther than needed for a good strike. Could
not view where the spring wire is located to assist the return
of the hammer and also if any spring wire is used for the
return of the other lever. Thanks a bunch. Wondering, is it
account this type clock made by this maker the reason no one
else had any info or input, or just not many available and
account of the age information is limited, there were a bunch
who looked. Thank you for your time.
 

Charles E. Davis

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Hi, I have a Brewster & Ingraham Beehive clock and can been seen on page 48 of the Ingraham clocks & watch book by Tran Duy Ly.
I am trying to find what the count lever is suppose to look like? I think maybe what I have has been modified in the past. I have taken three pics to try and show what it is I have, any help and maybe a pic would be appreciated alot, thanks.
Donald,
I went back to your first question to see what the root of your question is about. What makes you think your count hook is not correct. I admit it is short in comparison to any others, but that seems to be the design.
What happens during the strike? Why do you think there is a problem?
The strike hammer tail is crucial to its operation. The drive of the count wheel is also a novel approach that might give a problem. The rest of the arrangement seems to take care of the normal functions of time and strike very well when you examine them closely.
To answer your latest questions.
The helper spring is exactly like you photo. It is just blocked by an arbor.
From the looks of the lack of response we can almost imagine we have the only two in the NAWCC! I have been giving programs on striking mechanisms for a good number of years and have searched but have never found any information on this arrangement.
 
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Donald P Bellamy

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Charlie, my concern was with the 1"
Lever sticking straight up doing nothing
at all but acting as a tie off point for the
spring wire and right beside it is the
count lever that appears to have been
Soldered in place as if things had been
rearranged. When the count lever falls in
place on the hour the lever is only paper
thickness from touching the gear on the
large wheel next to the count wheel?
 

Charles E. Davis

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David,
My photo shows the upright lever acting as a limit lever so the count hook and the stop lever cannot raise out of position. This lever has a brass spring attached to load it so the count hook is always seeking the bottom of the notch and also will help register the countwheel for the next notch and drop securely into the bottom of the notch. I think that can be seen in the first photo.
The second photo gives the view of the interface between the cross section of the stop lever interfaces with the two other assemblies of the strike system.
The single lever performing the three functions of the strike release assembly has three acting spots: Follow release cam on center arbor, lift count hook, andcapture and timed release of stop pin for warning.
The hammer tail serves the non-typical function of replacing the follower of the strike control cam. As each strike pin passes and raises the tail it lifts the control assembly through the stop lever and the count hook to facilitate the incramenting of the count wheel.
 

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Donald P Bellamy

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Charlie, as you explained is the exact run from start to finish
watching this one. Should the brass wire spring used to
seat the count hook have light tension, just enough to assist
or heavy as to force the move? Also this one has a steel wire
spring to return the strike hammer and it does apply
a heavy tension.
 

Charles E. Davis

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Charlie, as you explained is the exact run from start to finish
watching this one. Should the brass wire spring used to
seat the count hook have light tension, just enough to assist
or heavy as to force the move? Also this one has a steel wire
spring to return the strike hammer and it does apply
a heavy tension.
Donald.
The count hook spring is a "helper" spring. It is useful when a clock is not vertical so it does not continue to strike when horizontal. In this example it also has a function of assisting the incrementation of the count wheel. The wheels forward motion is friction based which is iffy at the best. The shape of the teeth have a rachat form and the count hook's downward movement provides the final registration for the position of the notch. Gravity loading along would not be adequate for this action.
The strike spring is another matter. It provides the force for the hammer and gravity is of little consequence. The quality of the sound is directly related to how much tension this spring provides.
 

Donald P Bellamy

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I've been running this movement on stand and it will from time
to time run by the hour continuing the strike until another
hour slot in the count wheel arrives. Looks like excessive
vibration in the tail of the strike hammer is bouncing
preventing the stop lever from catching the stop pin?
Any thoughts?
 

Donald P Bellamy

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I'm down to my last concern, the count wheel has a tooth that is to short for what I call the gathering pin to make contact with to forward the wheel to continue the strike. Think its possible to find another count wheel, don't know how many different movements used this wheel or would having the tooth replaced be in order? The black mark in the photo indicates the position of the tooth account my pic is not clear enough to show but does show the type wheel.
 

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Watchfixer

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dovetail that teeth, beat new brass to rivet in place or soft-solder and file to original correct height.

Cheers, Watchfixer
 

Charles E. Davis

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I'm down to my last concern, the count wheel has a tooth that is to short for what I call the gathering pin to make contact with to forward the wheel to continue the strike. Think its possible to find another count wheel, don't know how many different movements used this wheel or would having the tooth replaced be in order? The black mark in the photo indicates the position of the tooth account my pic is not clear enough to show but does show the type wheel.
Donald,
If your count wheel is like mine it is driven not by the teeth but by the friction against the side of the lantern pinion shroud just above it. The function of the shape of the rachet teeth on the count wheel along with the help of a spring assist to help the count hook assembly register the notch by the downward motion of the count hook. It is not a positive feel like most count wheels.
You might have to strengthen the spring on the assembly that has the short stop lever, the stop hook and count hook.
The action of the hammer tail is crucial for the entire operation. You might have too much tension on the hammer spring or else one of its adjustments might be wrong.
 

Donald P Bellamy

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Donald,
If your count wheel is like mine it is driven not by the teeth but by the friction against the side of the lantern pinion shroud just above it. The function of the shape of the rachet teeth on the count wheel along with the help of a spring assist to help the count hook assembly register the notch by the downward motion of the count hook. It is not a positive feel like most count wheels.
You might have to strengthen the spring on the assembly that has the short stop lever, the stop hook and count hook.
The action of the hammer tail is crucial for the entire operation. You might have too much tension on the hammer spring or else one of its adjustments might be wrong.[/QUOTE

Charlie,
The operation of my strike as it exist now, at the top of the strike I have the fly, next is the large gear that mesh with the large gear beside the count wheel. The lantern pinion on this gear that turns the large gear beside the count wheel has one of the pins (leaves) extended that catch the teeth of the count wheel, if one wasn"t looking for this pin you would never see it account the was it is positioned. With the count hook in an hour slot, the stop pin against the stop lever this pin I make mention of will be in the 3 oclock position facing the movement.
 

Charles E. Davis

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The operation of my strike as it exist now, at the top of the strike I have the fly, next is the large gear that mesh with the large gear beside the count wheel. The lantern pinion on this gear that turns the large gear beside the count wheel has one of the pins (leaves) extended that catch the teeth of the count wheel, if one wasn't looking for this pin you would never see it account the was it is positioned. With the count hook in an hour slot, the stop pin against the stop lever this pin I make mention of will be in the 3 o'clock position facing the movement.
Donald,
Guilty as charged. I looked for it but not hard enough! Egg all over my face!
I should be getting used to that by now with all of the false conclusions I have jumped to while translating Japanese.
By the way the wheel next to the fly performs all of the functions that the second wheel down in the normal CW strike does. The cam function is taken care of by the pin which activates the strike hammer tail and the warning wpin is also the stop pin
The whole arrangement looks like an early attempt to marry a strike to a time only OG movement.
 

Donald P Bellamy

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Charlie,
I'm just one tooth away from having this movement where it should be. whats the odds of finding another count wheel and if the odds are as slim as replys this post has received whats your thoughts on repair?
 

Charles E. Davis

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The operation of my strike as it exist now, at the top of the strike I have the fly, next is the large gear that mesh with the large gear beside the count wheel. The lantern pinion on this gear that turns the large gear beside the count wheel has one of the pins (leaves) extended that catch the teeth of the count wheel, if one wasn't looking for this pin you would never see it account the was it is positioned. With the count hook in an hour slot, the stop pin against the stop lever this pin I make mention of will be in the 3 o'clock position facing the movement.
Donald,
Guilty as charged. I looked for it but not hard enough! Egg all over my face!
I should be getting used to that by now with all of the false conclusions I have jumped to while translating Japanese.
By the way the wheel next to the fly performs all of the functions that the second wheel down in the normal CW strike does. The cam function is taken care of by the pin which activates the strike hammer tail and the warning pin is also the stop pin
The whole arrangement looks like an early attempt to marry a strike to a time only OG movement.
 

Steven Thornberry

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This is a nice example of a Brewster & Ingrahams OG clock. Judging from the movement and comparing to an example in Tran Duy Ly's book on Ingraham clocks, I would estimate it was made 1850 or a bit later. Brewster & Ingrahams were in business from 1843 to 1852.

The reverse painted glass certainly looks old but looks peculiar on this door. I would expect it to fill the glass completely. So, I will say it is not original to the clock, but retrofitted into the door, subject, of course, to further research and possible correction. It would be nice to see it first hand.
 
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Jerome collector

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Construction on the Smithsonian Institute was completed in 1855, which post-dates Brewster & Ingrahams. It seems unlikely that the tablet dates to the early 1850s, unless the picture was based on a pre-construction architect's drawing. The divided opening in the door to fit two tablets does not look original to me. I suspect it was done at a later date to accommodate the cut down version of the Smithsonian tablet. The tablet should look like the one below, found in a Crosby & Vosburgh OG from circa 1856-1857.
Mike
090127-1-1.jpg
 

Steven Thornberry

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I concede that the tablet is quite possibly 1855 or later, but the exterior of the Smithsonian Castle, If I remember my history correctly, was actually completed in 1852 (not sure exactly when), while work continued on the interior. So, I thought it just possibly coeval with the end of Brewster & Ingrahams (July 1852), but not original for other reasons.
 

Jerome collector

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I concede that the tablet is quite possibly 1855 or later, but the exterior of the Smithsonian Castle, If I remember my history correctly, was actually completed in 1852 (not sure exactly when), while work continued on the interior. So, I thought it just possibly coeval with the end of Brewster & Ingrahams (July 1852), but not original for other reasons.
No quibbles with your logic. Quite possible that it dates to earlier than the official opening.
 

Jerome collector

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I concede that the tablet is quite possibly 1855 or later, but the exterior of the Smithsonian Castle, If I remember my history correctly, was actually completed in 1852 (not sure exactly when), while work continued on the interior. So, I thought it just possibly coeval with the end of Brewster & Ingrahams (July 1852), but not original for other reasons.
Steven,
You got me wondering about prints and other pictorial representations that the tablet might have been based on, and I discovered something interesting. Period photographs (both before and after a fire in 1865) show a stumpy left tower capped by a pointy roof and a tall, flat-topped tower on the right (similar to the towers on the tablet). Period prints also show the asymmetrical towers. However, an 1846 architect's model of the Smithsonian (viewed from the back) clearly shows two flat-topped towers. That leads me to conclude that the tablet is based on pre-construction depictions, which would possibly make the tablet contemporaneous with the clock. Perhaps the upper part of the tablet cracked, the owner had the damaged portion removed, and then the divider was installed to hold the cut-down glass?
Mike
Link to architect's model: http://click.si.edu/Image.aspx?image=942&story=27&back=ImageIndex&page=1
 
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katana

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Jerome and Steven,


I am grateful to you both for your efforts and information related to this clock. Based on your information, and I guess the clock is from the period before it is built Smithsonian Castle.
I apologize for my poor knowledge of an English language.
 

Steven Thornberry

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Jerome and Steven,


I am grateful to you both for your efforts and information related to this clock. Based on your information, and I guess the clock is from the period before it is built Smithsonian Castle.
I apologize for my poor knowledge of an English language.
You are very welcome to anything Mike and I have offered. We just have these little back-and-forth discussions trying to understand as much about these clocks as is possible. Your knowledge of the English language is quite good. We hope you continue posting on the message board.
 

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