Brand New Hermle Movement

[Dave B]

Several months ago, I got a call to look at a clock with a Hermle 340-020 movement that had stopped running. The pivots were obviously spalling, and all three trains showed serious signs of wear and the dreaded "black gook". I told the owner he had two choices: either he could pay me to overhaul the movement and install bearings, or he could get a replacement movement.
The client is in his late 80's, and his eyesight is beginning to fail. He told me that many years ago, he had attended some repair classes at National Headquarters, but no longer felt confident to work on his own movements. He did, however, feel he could switch one over, so he opted for the latter.
He obtained a 340-020A movement, and had it in the case, but the chime hammers did not line up, and there was no way to bend them to make them work. He sent the clock to me, along with his old movement, and asked if I could switch out the chime/strike mechanism, so the hammers would line up. I did that, and had the chimes and strike working properly. When I went to test the movement running, to be sure the old chime and strike works were not going to hang the movement up, I found it did not run. The following Monday, I took the movement to a meeting of the Horological Association of Maryland, to see if some other eyes could spot the problem. Several people there felt that I should try oiling under the thrust washers on the escapement lever, and should also oil the escape wheel and fourth wheel pivots. I did that, but it still would not run. Today, I took off the balance machanism, and proceeded to push the lever back and forth by hand, watching to see if there was dirt in one of the pinons. No such luck. The pinons are all clean and dry. So then, I proceeded to look carefully at the pivots, and to scrape around them with a piece of pegwood. The attached photo was taken after I got this gunk from around the escape pivot on the front plate (hidden under the rack). It was taken through the 40X side of my stereo microscoope. As soon as I saw this, I knew that these are plated pivots, and are spalling, so I double checked the letter stamp on the front of the movement., to see if it really is a new one, or was something the client had bought used somewhere. It has a W stamp, which I believe should indicate the movemnt was made this year, and is therefore new. That is most disconcerting.

 

[harold bain]

Sounds like bad news for us, Dave. You should put the chime and strike mechanism back to original, and ship it back to Hermle for a replacement (and hope for a better one). Include a note with your findings and conclusions relating to pivot plating.

 

[shutterbug]

I'm not sure you can conclude that it's plating coming off, as that would be very rare that far up the train. It could be dried oil, grease, or other unknown goop. It shouldn't be there - that's for sure. I'd exchange it for a new one at any rate.

 

[bangster]

BRAND NEW!! PRE-FURNISHED WITH PIVOT CRUD!!

 

[MARK A. BUTTERWORTH]

Absolutely it would be covered under warranty. He will need to return it to where it was purchased. If that was Hermle, contact me and I will give you the contact for return. If it was purchased from an independent distributor, then it would need to be returned there.

I am not certain about the term spalling; did you mean galling? At any rate, I am extremely intersted in knowing why the unit had a failure like this. I am not aware that Hermle has gone back to plating pivots, but they do make technical changes without informing us. I will try to keep you informed.

 

[J. A. Olson]

Remember when Hermle made good movements?

 

[Dave B]

There are most definitely bits of metal in thre gook. I used the term spallinhg, because I am a civil engineer, and that is what concrete does. I suppose galling mught be more apropos for something that is delaminating because of rotational friction.I suspect that, becasue the original chiming mechanism was riveted on, they will not take the movement back, but I will give it a try. My biggest concern is that the client is probably going to think it was something that I did that wrecked his brand new movement. That is going to be a really hard sell, I fear.
I have had nothing but grief from every Hermle movement that has come into the shop, and I am about ready to throw in the towel, and just refuse to work on any more of them. If nothing else, this example tells me they have serious production quality control problems. I am reminded of something I was told in a quality control class once. It was a statement attributed to Mr. Deming. "If you are correcting problems at the end of the production line, that is akin to driving and making steering corrections by watching the rear view mirror."

 

[Willie X]

Dave B,

Hermle pivots of late have a lot of micro scratches. These look something like your photo. But, the scratches are all below the (smooth enough) wear surface. This is probably the results of a less than perfect polishing operation but I haven't seen where it causes any problems at all. So, you must have something else entirely. It would be unusual indeed that a brand new movement would have 'pivot poop'.

I hope you will keep posting about how this plays out.

Willie X

 

[Richard T.]

"He obtained a 340-020A movement, and had it in the case, but the chime hammers did not line up, and there was no way to bend them to make them work".

I had a similar problem with the chime hammers last week. The movement was the same and it was a tambour case. There was too much vertical space between the hammers and the chime bars and also the front to back positions of the hammers did not line up exactly.

I used a spacer and slightly raised the chime block. The hammers can be bent front to back to line up with the chime bars. There was no noticeable difference in sound and everything worked fine.

The movement is still running as it should and keeping good time.

Best,

Richard T.

 

[Dave B]

I had to make a couple of deliveries and a service call this afternoon, so had to set the project aside for the nonce. I shall attack it tomorrow morning, to see if I can get things cleaned up enough to avoid trading the movement in. BUt of course, all the profit on this particular job (like every other Hermle I have ever touched) is completely gone, and then some. It is revolting developments like these that so endear the modern German clock industry to me.

Incidentally, it is not just clocks that have quality control problems. My brother tells me similiar horror tales about Porsche, Mercedes Benz, BMW, and Audi. He is a service writer and head mechanic at an independent shop that specializes in big kids toys. The newer German cars it seems, are no bettter than British cars of the fifties were, but they are infinitely more difficult and complicated to work on. He says he'd much rather get involved with an older Jaguar or Rolls Royce than a new German car.
-> posts merged by system <-

"He obtained a 340-020A movement, and had it in the case, but the chime hammers did not line up, and there was no way to bend them to make them work".

I had a similar problem with the chime hammers last week. The movement was the same and it was a tambour case. There was too much vertical space between the hammers and the chime bars and also the front to back positions of the hammers did not line up exactly.

I used a spacer and slightly raised the chime block. The hammers can be bent front to back to line up with the chime bars. There was no noticeable difference in sound and everything worked fine.

The movement is still running as it should and keeping good time.

Best,

Richard T.

But these needed to be bent sideways, as well as front to back, and they are flat bars instead of wires. Whoever effected that cost savings should be taken out and summarily hanged.

 

[donaldfaf]

I am reading this thread and bang has a point.

I think the old boy got over on you Dave. You Write. The old guy got the movement. He states. Some experience in repair.

Read between the lines. That movment you will most likely find a bent pivot and the smell of lamp oil. Not new.


Dissasemble repair damage and get going one train at a time.

Good luck

 

[Dave B]

But the movement carries a W date stamp. Assuming I am correct in thinking that year letters started in 1988 with A, that should be 2010, and therefore a new movement

Unfortunately, though, donald, I am afraid you are right. This guy is going to wind up with an overhauled movement at the price of changing over the chiming mechanism (about $100). I usually charge $350 or more to overhaul a three train movement.

 

[donaldfaf]

Your rite

W is 2010

Does the new movement have e clips on the arbors

Are the E clips on the back still intact? No scratches? If so this dosn't make sense.

I am thinking. He may have tried to swap back plates to simplify align chime problems.

Then found out new arbors dont work with old plates.

It seems the only time I am not suspicious of customer tails is when they say "It ran rite up until it qiit"

 

[Dave B]

Well - I carefully inspected all the E clips oon all the arbors. If anything has been changed, it was done by someone who was darned good, because I find no scratches on them or on the shoulders of the arbors beneath.

I dug an older (year date 1983) 340-020 movement out of my junk bin and hav it running on the test stand right now. I need to replace the strike mainspring in it, though. But I am leaning toward putting this oine right, and placing it into the clock, and returning the new movement to the owner, without disassembling it. That way, if he wants to pursue getting it replaced, he can do so. The advantage of that is the movement will still have the clips and such untouched, so the supplier can tell the movement is as it came, with the exception of having the rivets removed to switch out the chime mechanism.

Which brings up another point - the chime mechanisms on the bottoms of the new movements are held in place with rivets, instead of screws. Isn't that special? More cost-cutting I presume.

 

[harold bain]

Dave, I've replaced quite a few of these, and had no problems bending the hammers (both up and down, and sideways) to make them work. Just something I expect to have to do with a new movement. Just recently did a 1050-020 (same movement, with triple chime), which took a lot of fiddling with the hammers, but it is working well.
It sounds like the old boy is sending you his difficult problems after he has screwed them up. If he is an experienced repairman, he would have put his time and money into a 1920-30's vintage movement (if it was his own clock), rather than a worthless newer Hermle.

 

[Dave B]

Well - I suppose I was gullible enough to be taken in this time, but have learned the error of my ways.The next time someone comes to me with a similiar request, I will simply quote him the standard three train overhaul price, and he can take it or leave it. I won't call it an overhaul; I will simply say that is what I charge to work on Hermle (or Urgos, or Keinninger, or whatever it is) movements.

Incidentally - switched the strike barrel and spring from another spare movement into the 1983 one, and it seems to be working just fine. This evening, if all is still well, I will switch over the mounting plates, and stuff this movement into the case.


" ... he would have put his time and money into a 1920-30's vintage movement (if it was his own clock), rather than a worthless newer Hermle." It is a Howard Miller "Barrister" model that he was given upon retirement from the place where he worked - he has several other clocks in his house; mostly Frernch portico types, and an english tall clock from the late 1700's to early 1800's. SInce they will be a pleasure to work on, I am looking at this one as "paying dues."

 

[MARK A. BUTTERWORTH]

I checked with the factory in VA today. The folks there are not aware of any change back to plating pivots, although that would have been done in Germany. If it had been purchased from us, both myself and the Hermle folks would have rather just had it returned and everyone would have been [somewhat] happy and we could have inspected it. There are some odd parts to this. Unless the gentleman is experiencing some problems other than just eyesight, why would he pay some one to repair a new movement that could have been returned under warranty.? Is it possible he bought a returned unit from a distributor that was not under warranty and sold as is? It would be interesting to ferret out some information on this adventure.

PS I would take the old Rolls Royce as well. I would even settle for a Bentley.

 

[Dave B]

He did not send it to me because it was not running. He sent it to me because he could not see any way to get the hammers lined up with his chime rods, and he did not want to try to bend the rods. I also could not see any way to get the hammers to line up with the chime rods, because they were fine in the vertical, but off in the horizontal plane, and instead of being on wires, as the older ones are, were on flat bars, stamped out of a sheet. So we agreed that I would swap the old chime mechanism out, for $100.00, which I did. Only after that was done, did I find that the movement would not run. I did not see any signs of grunge or anythig else out of the ordinary on the back plate. The grunge is on the froont plate, and is on the three pivots that are partly hidden by the rack mechanism. The gook is the top three pivots in the train. All else looks brand new. Removing the balance mechanism revealed that there is no power to the escape wheel. Thus all my head scratching.

Now, it is quite possible he obtained the movement from some ooutlet house, where they are selling ones that have been returned or some such, but I doubt seriously that he did anything other than just put the movement in his case, and discover that the hammers do not line up. Unfortunately, if we send the movement back now, though, I have already changed the chime mechanism, which meant removing the rivets holding the original one on, and replacing them with screws., Any Hermle dealer is immediatly going to say that the movemet has been altered, and therefore will not cover any sort of warranty.

All of which brings us to the current situation, which is as follows. I have another movement here, which I have overhauled, and which is running just fine. Tomoirrow morning, I am going to put that movement into the case, and package his new movement up so he can return it or do as he wishes.

ANd hereafter, I am not going to accept any work on Hermle movements, unless I have complete control; that is, I will quote an overhaul price, and if I feel it is simpler to get and install a new movement, I will do that, and the client can realize the savings in cost between replacing and rebuilding. BUt I am not going to offer that as an option to the client. IF a new movement is ordered, I will order it, and I will test it befoire it goes into the client's case. And if I have to swap out chime mechanisms, or whatever, the quote for rebuilding the movement will more than cover the additional hour or so it takes to do that.

 

[harold bain]

Dave, those bars bend just fine when adjustments are needed. Much less work than you went through. But, if the movement didn't work anyway.....

 

[MARK A. BUTTERWORTH]

Understand the situation is different than I envisioned. I agree that the new hammer wires are not as easily bent a the old ones. Doable, but less user friendly. Unfortunately the folks in Germany who come up with these design changes do not always understand the needs of the repair person and are thinking about new clock production.

 

[Dave B]

Actually, HArold, swapping the chime mechanism was a breeze. Even though the new ones are riveted, the holes were still tapped, so running in four screws was a snap. I had the mechanism swapped out, and tested by pushing the minute arbor around in less than an hour.
If that had been the only problem, I would have done fine on my quote of $100.00, instead of losing my shirt.