BPH Needed HWN

[TEACLOCKS]

Anybody know the Beats Per Hour for this Colonial clock, Mercury Pendulum 7 tube ??

 

[bruce linde]

why would it be anything other than 3600 bph?

beats seconds, 60 seconds per minute x 60 minutes an hour

 

[TEACLOCKS]

That is what I thought.
I got it close on my test stand after the rebuild, and was letting the customer finish, & she screwed it all up.
So I am going to use My Microset.
Thank you
Lloyd

 

[bchaps]

in my clock repair procedure, counting teeth was performed upon disassembly and noted on a client worksheet. Then, those numbers were entered into a simple excel spreadsheet which provided beats per hour. It required 10 minutes or so to do.... used a green whiteboard marker to clarify starting tooth, (helps avoid recounts). Benefits: examined those teeth and pinions closely! Teeth don't lie... an exact number of escape wheel rotations is required to rotate the minute hand one time: Down side: on one movement someone had slipped a "close substitute" wheel into the train... that took some time to diagnose!

 

[TEACLOCKS]

why would it be anything other than 3600 bph?

beats seconds, 60 seconds per minute x 60 minutes an hour

This is why



Right NOW its 3860 BPH and its to fast.
And I am working on it to slow it down.

 

[Willie X]

No need to worry over a number ...

Just make the pendulum longer.

Willie X

 

[TEACLOCKS]

When I get the correct BPR with my Microset I let everyone Know.
Thank you
Lloyd

 

[J. A. Olson]

Hans Winterhalder ("HWN") made several different movements and they did not always have the same pendulum length.
The book entry likely refers to a different movement than the one you've got.
Your movement bears much similarity to an American Herschede 7 tube, but it's not a complete clone.

Learn more about Hans Winterhalder here, the Winterhalder family was a great clockmaking legacy beset by many troubles:

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/winterhalder-miller-colonial-mfg-grandfather-clock.87902/

 

[TEACLOCKS]

"Bruce Linde"
Said
" why would it be anything other than 3600 bph"
I was asking if anybody knew what the BPR might be ?
This clock was moved by some movers and they spilt the Mercury out of 2 of the Mercury tubes.
They sent the pendulum to a clock guy in Long Beach calif and they filled the tubes to the stains on the glass vial left from the Mercury.
Then after she got moved in "She" the customer Called me to get it running, I Saw the movement to be very worn so I took it to my shop Proceeded to over haul it, Then she wanted it back before Christmas, So I was done repairing it and told her we will to use the clock case as a test stand "WRONG on my Part" KNOW after a few days up and down with the Mercury bob It looks like the guy must have put way too much Mercury in the Vials, Cause the bob is up as far as it can go and the clock is 15 minutes SLOW in 24 hours.
SO a NEW Question?
How much Mercury too remove to Get it to seed up ?
Thank you

 

[J. A. Olson]

Looked through your photos again and the one photo showing a mercury pendulum appears to be from a 9 tube clock.

There aren't any recorded formulas for this particular movement or pendulum. It's going to be trial and error to see how much mercury has to be removed or added to make the clock keep good time, alongside adjusting the pendulum bob up/down. When it's over, you can record your findings for any future repairers working on this movement and pendulum.

 

[Willie X]

Removing mercury will lower the pendulum's center of gravity and make your clock run slower.

Also, if your clock is running "15 minutes FAST in 24 hours" and your pendulum is "up as far as it will go" ... Then for gosh sakes lower the pendulum as already stated in post #6.

About 1/2" lower for starters would be good. WillieX

 

[TEACLOCKS]

SORRY - SORRY - SORRY
SLOW
15 minutes SLOW in 24 hours.
BOB all the way up is 15 minutes SLOW in 24 hours.
SORRY

I Edited post #9

 

[shutterbug]

You can use your Microset to determine the BPH accurately. Just set it to count. The strike/chimes need to be disabled. Mark a starting place for the minute hand, and start the counter. Let the minute hand make 3 or 4 complete rotations. When it gets to the starting point on the last go-round, stop the counter and record the beats. Divide that by the total number of rotations and you'll have the BPH. It won't make any difference if the clock runs slow or fast. It will be right regardless.
Then set the actual beat to match and you're done.

 

[Willie X]

Tea,

I figured as much.

Sometimes using a beat setter can be
misleading and very time consuming. It can be sort of like putting blinders on.

More mercury could be your answer but I would probably try something simple to see exactly what is needed. Like a 1/2" spacer above the rating nut, or a much shorter suspension spring, if possible.

Maybe someone will post a photo of an unbothered pendulum that you can judge the mercury height by ...

Good luck, Willie X

 

[TEACLOCKS]

Tea,

I figured as much.

Sometimes using a beat setter can be
misleading and very time consuming. It can be sort of like putting blinders on.

More mercury could be your answer but I would probably try something simple to see exactly what is needed. Like a 1/2" spacer above the rating nut, or a much shorter suspension spring, if possible.

Maybe someone will post a photo of an unbothered pendulum that you can judge the mercury height by ...

Good luck, Willie X

More mercury would raise the center of Gravity - yes?
What if I add some large steel ball bearings to the mercury ?
Them going to the bottom would lower the center of gravity and then slowing it down more, OR will it raise the mercury - Right.
I need to speed it up, I'm trying not to forget that.

 

[Willie X]

Tea,

The steel balls will float on the mercury.

I've worked on several of these type pendulums and they had a brass (somewhat ornamental) spacer between the rating nut and the base of the pendulum. Does yours have such a spacer?

Yes, more mercury will speed it up but if the vials are already around 2/3 to 3/4 full, I probably wouldn't add more.

Surely someone will chime in with a photo. Then you can tell for sure if something is missing and the proper mercury level in the vials.

Hang in there, Willie X

 

[TEACLOCKS]

Here is the pendulum.

 

[Willie X]

I only have one sealed mercury vial to go by and it's filled a little higher (proportionally) than what you have there.

The mercury height is a calculation involving the length and material of the rod. Maybe someone can help you with that.

Where are you Tink??

Willie X

 

[TEACLOCKS]

I found Quicksilver On Amazon.
I am going to buy some and add to the vials equally.
We will see what we see.

 

[TEACLOCKS]

I found some Quicksliver I can buy, 18.5 ml.
I am going to add that & see.
What do you think ??

 

[Willie X]

That's about 1 Tablespoon. Going to take probably 6 (?). Willie X

 

[TEACLOCKS]

I got the Mercury I need.
Just to make sure we are on the same pages.
---I AM GOING TO ADD ABOUT 3/8" TO EACH VIAL---
And it should Speed up the clock (Increase the BPR) Raise the center of Gravity.
IS THAT RIGHT ??

 

[RJSoftware]

The Microset has the advantage of doing a beat count. So without disassembling and counting teeth you can remove the pendulum, place minute hand on any minute mark, then let escape toggle back and forth.

The exact stop/start is a little tricky but you can increase accuracy by a range of minutes getting their average by diving total beat count by number of minutes.

You might not be able to use second hand as some don't count 60 per minute, but are really just cosmedic, to show movement. Fake.

So, say you're a manufacturer, you make a GF clock with no second hand. To add one on later that actually kept time, you'd have to mod the gears and the pendulum. Or just extend an arbor to make a fake one. Sure it turns like the real thing, but it's bs.

 

[TEACLOCKS]

Well

 

[DeanT]

I got the Mercury I need.
Just to make sure we are on the same pages.
---I AM GOING TO ADD ABOUT 3/8" TO EACH VIAL---
And it should Speed up the clock (Increase the BPR) Raise the center of Gravity.
IS THAT RIGHT ??

Yes adding more mercury will have the effect of shortening the effective length of the pendulum. (provided the added mercury sits above the current centre of gravity of the pendulum)

From memory from my Physics degree some 30 years ago, the moment of inertia is MR^2 (M is mass and R is distance from centre) so if you add new mass m at a distance of r it will add mr^2 and the new moment will be MR^2 + mr^2. This would mean the effective length L becomes (M+m)L^2 = MR^2 + mr^2.

So for example if the initial weight was 1kg at a distance of 1m and the added weight was 0.5kg at a distance of .8m the new effective length would be 0.938m. From that idea you should be able to work out how much mercury you need to add to shorten the pendulum to get he correct oscillation....

Hope my memory is good and that helps.....

 

[Dave Swan-George]

I know this thread is a few months old, but did you manage to solve the time keeping issue with the mercury levels in the pendulum vials? The funeral home where my late great uncles funeral was held has a colonial with this exact pendulum that is all original with all of the original mercury in it. View attachment 722862 I managed to get a couple of pictures of it at the time.The level of mercury was about one inch from the top of the jars.