Bought this thing off a friend- house clearance -in a sock.

[Mk2]

Odd looking thing. And very heavy brass construction. Weighs a ton for a pocket watch...
So bought it off a friend who found it in a house clearance lot for £20 and another silver Hamilton cocktail watch thing with lots of costume jewelry white stones pressed into it for £10. Not at all tarnished which is odd. Silver coloured thing, but not silver or stainless. Maybe pewter? I'll post a pic once cleaned up and running. Has an AS ?inside it.

But where to start on this thing? Doesn't even have a winder to set the time.

 

[Mk2]

Deleted - duplicate post!

 

[Jim Haney]

Google Keywind & Keyset watches. The keys on the string will wind and when you lift up the glass bezel you can use the right sized key with the square opening to turn the hands to set the time. The keys are most likely different sizes, one for winding & one for setting..

 

[Jerry Treiman]

It sounds like you have come across two treasures!

And very heavy brass construction. Weighs a ton for a pocket watch...

It is heavy because it appears to be 18K gold . The watch has plenty of value as a complete watch so please don't consider selling if for gold scrap.

silver Hamilton cocktail watch thing with lots of costume jewelry white stones pressed into it

Hamilton made many such watches in white gold or platinum with real diamonds.

You should get both of these assessed by an expert or post better pictures here. I suspect you have done extremely well for your money. (If this was a good friend you may wish to share your windfall with him/her).

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

This 'thing' does indeed look like a rather fine 18 carat gold case with an English movement, probably a lever of some sort. Could you post some clearer pictures of the hallmarks and the edges of the movement please? Preferably in natural light rather than flash. I believe I can see a Chester hallmark and the crown over 18 for the gold, but the date letter isn't clear. I'll take a punt on the case makers as being the Helsbys, (Thomas and John) in Liverpool.

If it's all it appears to be, your £20 could be 1/100th of its value. . .

Regards,

Graham

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

Doesn't even have a winder to set the time.

The winding key should also fit the square on the cannon pinion, so you have to open the bezel to set the time.

Although it's signed 'Manchester' the whole style says it was made in Liverpool, the name above that, which isn't clear, is probably for the retailer.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

This is a fine watch.

I believe the case is marked as 18K gold and has the Chester date letter [C], with the makers mark of the Helsby Brothers Thomas & John - the mark T.H above J.H - they made fine gold cases.

The date letter C was used from 10/05/1820 until 08/11/1821. If the hallmarks are genuine the date letter and Leopard's Head should correspond to these on a silver case.

This is important because gold cases are sometimes found in America with fake hallmarks for the 1820s and with fake Helsby maker's marks.

I believe the signature is J Ollivant, Manchester

1821 Manchester directory - listed as silversmiths & jewellers, retailing fine watches

John

 

[roughbarked]

If I could be so lucky. Lucky lucky lucky.
I'd let the friend know that it is worth way more than a dirty sock.

 

[MrRoundel]

OK, are you yanking our chains here? I have to ask.

 

[roughbarked]

OK, are you yanking our chains here? I have to ask.

Who, me?

 

[MrRoundel]

Who, me?

Oh, heaven's no. It's aimed at the OP, who'd have to be the luckiest guy alive to have such a...well...certain type of challenged, or ridiculously generous, friend. Regardless, the watch is a beautiful example of such a watch. Not to mention, quite valuable.

Friend: Oh heck, that old thing, Mk2? I was just about to use it to weigh down a fat juicy worm to see if I could catch dinner. $20? What, are you crazy? I'll just trade you for a lugnut off of your truck. Shoot, I'll be able to cast that thing a lot further anyway.

I can't help it, there's something about this story that says "whopper" to me.

 

[roughbarked]

"Odd looking thing. And very heavy brass construction. Weighs a ton for a pocket watch..."


Either totally naive or hasn't contemplated his navel for quite a while.

 

[Mk2]

Woah. A lot to take in here. So it's real solid gold!? And the other is platinum with diamonds?! I'm not going to keep them at home in that case. I won't do anything just yet then. Thanks for the heads up.

Off to a jewelers to get them to have a look...

And I thought I knew a little bit about watches! I never stop learning. I knew the keys were to wind the gilded (solid gold?) thing, but never having worked on one this old, I thought it made sense to get some other eyes on it. My average watch is a US$20 broken ebay thing, that I might spend a small amount fixing it up just for some fun. Hours of entertainment for little outlay. House clearance lots ond local charity shops often turn up unknown surprises.

 

[Incroyable]

Platinum watches are quite heavy for their size so heft would be an indication whether it's platinum or not.

There should also be markings such as "PT" or PT950 the fineness of jewelry grade platinum being 95% pure platinum. Some older platinum objects also had marks like Irid/Plat since the alloys contained Iridium.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

Most retail jewellers now have little watch expertise beyond changing batteries, and some aren't very clever at that. However, they should be able to verify the hallmarks, which on the gold watch are certainly authentic, with the date matching the style of the movement in all details. On no account believe or accept any offer they may make on the gold value, this is far too good a piece to even contemplate going down that route! Servicing these watches is also something for the specialists.

I think many people on seeing a piece with this much 'bling' would assume that it must be some sort of repro, but this time it's the real thing.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Bila]

I hope you share the spoils with your friend?

 

[everydaycats]

Hi Frank,

Most retail jewellers now have little watch expertise beyond changing batteries, and some aren't very clever at that. However, they should be able to verify the hallmarks, which on the gold watch are certainly authentic, with the date matching the style of the movement in all details. On no account believe or accept any offer they may make on the gold value, this is far too good a piece to even contemplate going down that route! Servicing these watches is also something for the specialists.

I think many people on seeing a piece with this much 'bling' would assume that it must be some sort of repro, but this time it's the real thing.

Regards,

Graham

But, don't let the watch out of your sight...or make sure you are dealing with a 'real' expert.
Regards

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

If the jeweller wants to test it for gold content, don't let them, especially if they use an acid test kit. That isn't necessary with English hallmarks which should guarantee at least the marked purity.

Regards

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

Your best course of action is to take sharp photographs of the hallmarks, case and the movement and post them here. If you do, I can guarantee that the combine expertised of the group that have followed this thread, will give you better advice than any jeweller is capable of.

John

 

[Mk2]

Well...

Solid gold. You were all correct. Like 76g. Heavy. Must be more of an ornamental thing at that weight.

The other, Iridium/Platinum with diamonds. But inside a regular plain jane AS movement. I've had many bad experiences with AS movements. Some really poor movement designs. Definitely bling over function.

The jeweller's offered to sell for me (yeah right), but I said could they keep them for safekeeping for the moment while we decide what to do. Apparently "quite valuable sir".

My friend already knows, so we're both happy. I might keep one, while he keeps the other. In discussions... He's now looking through the rest of the boxes like a man possessed! Photos, various letters, "bonds", cigar holders, really old cruise liner ticket stubs and lots of books. Odd clothes and robes. Very weird stuff.

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

This Ollivant is presumably the same person who went into partnership with Botsford in St. Anne's Square Manchester from the 1850s until Mappin & Webb bought the business in the 1960s?

Regards,

Graham

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

Solid gold. You were all correct. Like 76g. Heavy.

You're very fortunate to have come across a piece like this so early in your horological career! If you search online you should find plenty of fine English watches from this late Regency period; the more you see, the better your eye for detail becomes, and there are lots of books to read if your interest develops in this direction.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Mk2]

The funny thing Graham, I'm more into the technology than the horology side of things... I also enjoy rebuilding engines and gearboxes just for the fun of it. Watches are so much easier. Have a look at a new generation VW common rail diesel injection engine, with variable cam timing, variable pressure geometry turbine, multipath inlet plenum, computer controlled everything and tollerances down to microns.

I'm not that recent to watches though. I look at them and think how could this be improved, but without electronics. One of the reasons for my general dislike of AS movements. Actually, same can be said about 'some' ETA "stuff" (day and date works). Urgh.

Not sure which of the two I'll keep. Not neccessarily the most expensive one. I'll have to take some more pics. I mentioned to him that people on here are interested in the ancient pocket watch.

 

[MrRoundel]

Wow, well I'll eat my ...worm. Congratulations on winning the pocket watch lottery with this find. It's just in amazing condition for being as old as it is, and being 18k gold. It's an absolutely gorgeous case and movement. It seems that only the best makers engraved the pendant like that. Later makers, like Tobias, did so. I absolutely love it.

As far as the jeweler who's holding it for safe keeping, how well do you know them? Personally, I'd hold it myself, perhaps in a safe deposit box at the bank. A jeweler is more likely to be robbed than you are. I say this emphatically if the jeweler (One who you know little of.) offered to keep it for you, rather than you asking them to do so.

 

[MrRoundel]

While it's certainly a hard act to follow, I don't think we've seen your platinum and diamonds watch. Images?

BTW, I hear you on the auto mechanics versus watch work. It's one of the reasons I started tinkering. Bad back, too many busted knuckles, excessive grime falling into my eyes, oil spills on driveways, and other assorted mishaps. I still work on my own cars, but watches are generally more pleasant to service. Still mishaps, but generally not so difficult to deal with. Cheers.

 

[Mk2]

Yeah, I'll take some more pics next week. The only reason I didn't is because the little Hamilton thing looks almost "exactly" like another cocktail dress watch I serviced about a month ago - which had a snap on back, and an FHF movement. Just no diamonds. Once I'd serviced and cleaned it up (electroplated gold on brass with stainless back), it looked and ran like brand new. Under 10 seconds variation in six positions on the time grapher. Came from the local charity shop- didn't buy it or anything, but simply offered to renew it so they could get more $ for it. I might have a pic somewhere just before I replaced the straps (which were a right pain).

Reputeable jewellers, so all good.

People, seriously- Thanks for all the advice. You guys are great

 

[Mk2]

Found it... pic

 

[MrRoundel]

That's a nice little watch. And the FHF's are fine movements. I know what you mean about that type of band. I think I tried to replace one many years ago without much success. It had a rather flimsy clasp setup on it, IIRC.

Edited to reflect misunderstanding of which watch the image was of.

 

[John Matthews]

This Ollivant is presumably the same person who went into partnership with Botsford in St. Anne's Square Manchester from the 1850s until Mappin & Webb bought the business in the 1960s?

The John Ollivant was the father of Thomas and John. I believe the sequence was John Ollivant, John Ollivant & Son, the father died ~1795, then his sons Thomas & John continued with the business until the middle of the C19th. Loomes has J Ollivant & Co as ~1835, but I would want to reseacrh to confirm dates. Addresses were St Mary's Gate and Exchange Street. Ollivant & Botsford are at Exchange Street in 1855, 1863, 1880 ... so likely answer yes probably third generation Ollivant. BM has ...

John

 

[neighmond]

Indeed?