Bollenbach not sending power through the train

lwalper

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I'm working on a P. Bollenbach carriage clock that was not running. Signed by the maker in 1980, never serviced. The "oil" was more like glue. Separated the plates and wheels were stuck to the plates and went flying everywhere. Now, where does that one go? Cleaning and inspection uneventful with no obvious wear. Reassembled and everything moves freely -- until I install the barrel. The barrel arbor seems to be quite loose with excess movement, especially on the click side changing the depthing to the second wheel, and I'm not getting power to the going train. I suppose I need to bush the barrel arbors?

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R. Croswell

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Separated the plates and wheels were stuck to the plates and went flying everywhere.……….
I suppose I need to bush the barrel arbors?
yes, looks that way. Looks like a Hermle movement I believe Timesavers sells new barrels complete with the spring installed. If you mean that you failed to let down the spring(s) before disassembly, check carefully for bent arbors and bent teeth on thee wheels.

RC
 

lwalper

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Well, when I say "flew to pieces," the springs had been let down and actually out of the movement -- not that sort of damage. It was all the pinions/arbors stuck together in the plates with that old oil that everything just sort of popped apart when I separated the plates. It was not exactly the "orderly" disassembly that I had planned. No, everything is actually in pristine condition with the exception of the excess barrel arbor movement.
 
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lwalper

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Looking at timesavers I see barrel bushings. I suppose this is what they're for?
 

Dick Feldman

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When, in fact, your likely problem is the train itself.
I believe you are zeroed in on the symptom rather than the disease. (The main springs and the escapement are usual culprits for beginners).
What are you going to do when servicing only the mainspring barrel does not solve the problem?
Seems like there is little or no wear because you do not recognize wear or fail to acknowledge loose pivots in their holes.
You seem to have all of the wrong answers for classic clock problems.
You will be time and money ahead to replace the entire movement.
JMHO,
Dick
 
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lwalper

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Yes, a good project but just make really sure that the new bushing is really well centered. You can't count on that enlarged hole being centered.

RC
I thought about that. The hole center will be located on the lathe. Not a problem.
 

lwalper

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When, in fact, your likely problem is the train itself.
I believe you are zeroed in on the symptom rather than the disease. (The main springs and the escapement are usual culprits for beginners).
What are you going to do when servicing only the mainspring barrel does not solve the problem?
Seems like there is little or no wear because you do not recognize wear or fail to acknowledge loose pivots in their holes.
You seem to have all of the wrong answers for classic clock problems.
You will be time and money ahead to replace the entire movement.
JMHO,
Dick
You're probably right, but since I'm learning and enjoy making stuff, why not give it a shot? All pinions and wheels do not seem to have any appreciable wear. After cleaning, pivots seem to fit closely in their holes with appropriate tilt and shake. Train movements spin easily and quietly (no pivot chatter in oversize / misshaped holes) with the lightest touch without the escapement or fly governor. Strike side operates, but while I'm, doing it I'll probably bush that barrel too. It's not as loose as the time side, but could be a better fit.
 
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R. Croswell

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You're probably right, but since I'm learning and enjoy making stuff, why not give it a shot? All pinions and wheels do not seem to have any appreciable wear. After cleaning, pivots seem to fit closely in their holes with appropriate tilt and shake. Train movements spin easily and quietly (no pivot chatter in oversize / misshaped holes) with the lightest touch without the escapement or fly governor. Strike side operates, but while I'm, doing it I'll probably bush that barrel too. It's not as loose as the time side, but could be a better fit.
Sounds like a plan, and a good learning experience.

Any clock with some years on it will have some wear throughout the movement, that's a matter of fact. However, one should not assume that every point of wear is a problem or that the entire movement is ready for a rebuild. Pivot hole (bushing) locations must be precisely located, and the best locations are the original holes from the factory. Armature bushing installations, and even some "professional" installations, are often less than perfect. If this clock's pivot holes show only minor wear, the well-intended installation of a bunch of bushings may provide an opportunity to introduce problems where none existed and do little or nothing to improve the overall health of the clock. This isn't to say that pivot holes with significant should wear not be bushed.

When just one point shows excessive wear and everything else just reflects normal age-related wear, one must answer the question, why, and to the extent possible, correct the underlying problem so you won't experience another premature failure of the same part.

RC
 
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Willie X

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This is not a good clock for a learning project.

You will spend 70 bucks for new barrels and a lot of time working with the bushings. And there will still be a good chance of having a non runner, or a short runner. :rolleyes:

WIlle X
 

lwalper

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Thanks for the encouragement. I kinda figure that if I can fix it on this one where parts are readily available it will be good practice for one of those century-old movements that are practically impossible for parts replacement. If I completely mess this one up, there are always replacement barrels and movements.
 

R. Croswell

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Thanks for the encouragement. I kinda figure that if I can fix it on this one where parts are readily available it will be good practice for one of those century-old movements that are practically impossible for parts replacement. If I completely mess this one up, there are always replacement barrels and movements.
It's your own clock, you have the time, go for it. It's not like it is a valuable antique. When I first started working on clocks, my moto was, fix it, or fix it so no one else could fix it. (I buried my mistakes but each one was a learning experience whether it ran or not). Now if this was someone else's clock then I would save time and aggravation and just go for a completely new movement, but what fun would that be?

RC
 

Uhralt

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If I remember correctly, the time and strike barrels in this movement are identical. As your strike barrel has less wear (as often is the case), you can try to swap them and see if the clock wants to run now. If it does, bush both barrels and you should be fine.

Uhralt
 

Willie X

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They often have different springs and the spring combinations varied over the years. So you will need to keep up closely with what spring goes where.

And, its a good idea to check the click wheels and springs closely and replace if necessary. Any pinion that needs a bushing, that wheel/arbor will need to be replaced, or re-pivoted. Otherwise, your clock won't run for very long.

Willie X
 

Mike Mall

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If Willie is poo pooing a repair, it's likely good advice.
Willie isn't a Debbie Downer when it comes to repairs - he tends to be more of a glass half full - "WE CAN DO IT!", advisor.
 

lwalper

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If I remember correctly, the time and strike barrels in this movement are identical. As your strike barrel has less wear (as often is the case), you can try to swap them and see if the clock wants to run now. If it does, bush both barrels and you should be fine.

Uhralt
The barrels do look the same -- except they have different numbers on the barrel cover. One has 30 and the other 31, and it seems that the springs looked a bit different. I didn't measure them, just cleaned, lubed and reinstalled in the same orientation as they came out.
 

lwalper

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If Willie is poo pooing a repair, it's likely good advice.
Willie isn't a Debbie Downer when it comes to repairs - he tends to be more of a glass half full - "WE CAN DO IT!", advisor.
Heard that! I've read a lot of his posts -- always been good advice. That aside, since it's not my day job, what can I lose by giving it a try?--other than a couple of hours that I would have otherwise spent at some other wasted enterprise. At this point it's all about learning what works and what may not be such a great idea.
 
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Uhralt

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The barrels do look the same -- except they have different numbers on the barrel cover. One has 30 and the other 31, and it seems that the springs looked a bit different. I didn't measure them, just cleaned, lubed and reinstalled in the same orientation as they came out.
I have seen the different numbers but looking at the specs, I didn't see a difference. There is nothing to lose if you try it out. The barrels can even be removed without splitting the plates, so if it doesn't help, it just takes minutes to return everything to the original condition.

I just love to experiment.

Uhralt
 

R. Croswell

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Heard that! I've read a lot of his posts -- always been good advice. That aside, since it's not my day job, what can I lose haven by giving it a try?--other than a couple of hours that I would have otherwise spent at some other wasted enterprise. At this point it's all about learning what works and what may not be such a great idea.
I have to agree that this isn’t a great movement for an inexperienced repair person. It is dangerous to over-prescribe for a sick clock that the doctor hasn’t seen, but I suspect some of the advice give is simply describing the mine field that may be ahead. Ordinarily one does not need to repivot or replace every arbor where a bushing is installed, but this movement may turn out to be from the period when this maker plated the pivots. The plating often (usually) fails prematurely causing the pivot to become rough, which “eats up“ the pivot hole. Many consider such movements impractical to repair. Not all the plated pivots fail at once, and one never knows when the next one will fail. I don’t want to discourage you and it will be a good experience.

RC
 

lwalper

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... this movement may turn out to be from the period when this maker plated the pivots. The plating often (usually) fails prematurely causing the pivot to become rough, which “eats up“ the pivot hole.

RC
That does introduce another dimension. It'll be a learning project. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for your wisdom and experience.
 

lwalper

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It's back together and keeping good time. You were right about the wear. On closer look I found I needed to install four bushings in the time train. then the four on the barrels and caps. The winding arbors do appear to be chrome plated, but the plating was intact so just gave it a little polish. Surprize -- the barrel caps are brass plated steel. This has been a good learning project for $3 worth of bushings and a couple hours work. Let me see now, which one's next?--a cuckoo that needs a lot of work, or ...?
 
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