Black Forest? Wood wheel movement. Missing strike part.

Discussion in 'Wood Movement Clocks' started by Chris Radano, Jun 22, 2019.

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  1. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
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    I think this is a Black Forest movement. It's the oldest wood movement I own. I think it's quarter striking, but it is missing the rack tail? The strike train seems simple, not unusual for older German movements, but there may be more missing.
    I know it's a long shot, but if someone could tell what's missing.
    Or, at least ID and date this movement? Thanks.
    I suspect this clock is early 19th c. The last photo I attempted to take of the fly, which is a small rectangular block of wood.

    Black Forest wood wheel clcock 003.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 004.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 005.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 006.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 007.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 008.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 009.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 010.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 011.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 012.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 013.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 014.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 015.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 016.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 017.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 018.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 019.JPG
     
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  2. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    Probably it's not missing anything. I have to look at it to see if I can set it up correctly.
    Don't you think the strike train is unusual? These old German wall clocks blow my mind. How someone could build a clock like this, so simple.
    This one has been restored, but this clock looks old.
     
  3. Joseph Bautsch

    Joseph Bautsch Registered User
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    Chris, I looked up some of the features your clock has in the book by Karl Kochmann, Black Forest Clock Maker and the Cuckoo Clock. The book makes reference to both the early Black Forest wood frame clocks as well as the early Cuckoo Clocks. The wood wheels were used in the very early clocks from the 1750's on. By the late 1750's to 1800 most all the wheels were brass cast with wood or steel arbors. The rope drive was also used on the very early clocks, but that gave way to chain drives latter in the 1700's to 1800. The anchor escapement was used in early Betha clocks. The question I have regarding the escapement system is that the pendulum uses a suspension spring but that could be a modification a latter date. The book does not contain a great deal of specifics and I'm not an expert on their early construction. So how accurate any of this may be I don't know. Maybe someone here can add to this. What you have is probably worth more investigation as to origin and age. I would suggest engaging the research people at the NAWCC library to look into what you have. The dial looks to be a more recent addition. Whoever put that dial on used phillips head screws to attach it. Its age probably from mid to late 1850. The hands look to be made for an English long case. Age of the hands I don't know but I don't think they would not have been original to this clock. I looked at the strike system and can't make heads or tails out of it. So I have no clue there.
     
  4. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    Hello, and thank you for the reply. I now own enough Black Forest painted dial clocks I should own a book! But usually older ones like this a harder to find, and expensive. This one is certainly older, but was not too expensive. I bought it from Germany. I think because of the dial, maybe it was overlooked. I agree the dial dates from around 1850. I think maybe there was an older dial that was replaced due to age damage. At one time, the dial was fastened by hooks on the top and bottom. The bottom hook is visible on the frame but is no longer used. It looks like the screws that now fasten the dial were done by a restorer.

    I think the hands are original. They do have a baroque appearance. When I saw the hands of this clock, in spite of the dial I suspected the clock was not a common example.

    Looking at the striking- it looks like the gathering pallet somehow releases the rack, and pushes it up to the snail by the great wheel weight. The rack is securely engaged at all times by lantern pinions under the gathering pallet snail. The minute arbor has four stepped sections for the lifting arm to fall. Furthermore, there are pins on the great wheel that activate the hammers. It looks like it could work, and everything is there. But it needs to be upright to work, and there appears to by no warning sequence. Also, the strike train rope is thinner. As I was attempting to pull the great wheel by the rope, the rope snapped!

    These old German clocks have unusual, and simple, economical elements like this clock's striking. I look at clocks from Ebay Germany, and I see older clocks every so often that blow my mind, nothing like you see here. I think because of the language barrier, the English speaking folks collect different clocks than the Germans, who to me can appear insulated from the rest of the clock world. Sometimes their clocks are expensive!

    But really, I'm not sure I feel safe having clocks from this one particular seller shipped here. These wood clocks travel well, but the packing leaves a lot to be desired. here are the boxes this clock came in:

    Black Forest wood wheel clcock 001.JPG Black Forest wood wheel clcock 002.JPG
     
  5. Joseph Bautsch

    Joseph Bautsch Registered User
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    Ouch!!! How did it survive being crushed and tossed around like that? Maybe someone can jump in here and give a better idea about the hands. I don't think its the age but more the style of these hands that would not have been found on these older Black Forest wood frame clocks.
     
  6. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    #6 Uhralt, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
    Chris,
    I grew up in the Black Forest area and this clock puzzles me. Even though it looks much like a very early Black Forest clock it has some elements that are highly unusual. The dial, of course is a later replacement and is a Black Forest shield dial. The hands, if original, are very unusual for a Black Forest clock. The movement itself is what puzzles me most. The early clocks with wooden wheels had the strike train behind (or in front of) the going train, not next to it. Movements with the two trains next to each other were made after about 1830 while your clock is much older, probably made before 1750. I wonder if this clock was made elsewhere, maybe in Switzerland, Austria or Italy. The solid anchor (rather then the strip pallets) is also something that is not normally found in Black Forest clocks.

    Uhralt
     
  7. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    Probably it's not a Black Forest movement. Sometimes these old wood clocks are sold at auction. They're listed as something like "South German or Alpine region".
     
  8. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I think "alpine region" might be correct. This would cover Switzerland, Austria and northern Italy...It is a very interesting movement and I hope you can get the strike working. Some wheels look rather black, has someone "lubricated" them with graphite?

    Uhralt
     
  9. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    Yes there's graphite in there. Some of the woodworm dust shook loose as well. But even with some worm damage the clock seems sturdy enough.
    I still couldn't figure out the striking, but I don't see anything missing.
    I also like the side doors. The way the doors have been restored, they're kind of permanently attached. I need to do a little gluing and maybe some wax to the doors, and they should last a while longer.
     
  10. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Reviewing my references, rack striking is pretty rare on these Holzraderuhren movements.

    Ralph
     
  11. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    Thanks to Ralph and his experience, he had enough sense to see this clock has weight driven on demand repeat work. This clock is non-striking. It appears that the weight needs to be wound to activate the repeat, where the clock will indicate the nearest quarter hour striking on 2 bells. The hammers are activated by pins on the main wheel as the main wheel rotates. This clock may have been close to a bed, where the owner could check what time it was when he/she woke up in the middle of the night to use their chamber pot. Hopefully they used the clock before using their chamber pot.

    So this clock is most likely 18th century, Ralph sent me a photo of a Continental repeating movement that looks like it's from around the turn of the 19th c., but I've not seen a repeating clock from the 19th c., all 18th c. We've both not seen a weight activated repeat (usually a pull cord on a barreled spring), much less repeat work on a wood wheel clock. So this clock is indeed unusual. Here are more photos.

    Wood movement striking 001.JPG Wood movement striking 002.JPG Wood movement striking 004.JPG Wood movement striking 003.JPG Repeat train main wheel 001.JPG Wood movement strike train wheels 001.JPG
     
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  12. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    Hi Chris, I posted this one Help with Austrian wood-works eons ago. It will result familiar to you (not as well preserved as yours, though) I came to the conclusion of it being Austrian made

    Aitor
     
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  13. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    Ah yes. The photos are small, but yours looks like time and strike, with a separate train for repeat work. Mine is more simple, time and quarter hour repeat on 2 bells.
    The movements certainly look of similar age and origin. I don't know the place of origin, I think in the Alpine region of Europe. I would guess somewhere such as Swiss, S. German, Austrian, N. Italy.
     
  14. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    Ouch, the pics have been severely downsized when the site was migrated!:mad:
    I found some poor references and pics on an Austrian or German book. I'll try to find the book ... On the other hand, I'll repost some of my pics here in better res this evening, when I return home.
    Your clock is more complete than mine. It has the pendulum cock (do you have the pendulum too?) and the two nested bells. I'd love to see detail pics swowing construction/assembly details, when you have time for it, please!

    Aitor
     
  15. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    I don't have weights or pendulum.
    Although I haven't done extensive research (which is very limited in English), I would be surprised if the clock was from Vienna, a major clock making center. To me it's a rural clock.
    I can get better pics. I have't done anything but repair the split it in dial (replaced dial).

    Your clock is unusual, most often 3-train would indicate quarter striking. Yours is rare (mine too).
     
  16. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    Thanks, Chris1
    I found some loose relatives on Berthold Schaaf's book 'Holzräreruhren'. On pages 69-72 he illustrates a few late 198th-early 19th Austrian clocks (not Viennese ones, but from Salzburg, Linz, Graz) Some stroke eigths, some quarters on demand.
    Here go bigger pics of my movement. I'd take fresh ones, but my flat looks currently like a furniture deposit due to some reform works and the box is far from my reach...:(
    IMG_4280.jpg IMG_4281.jpg IMG_4282.jpg IMG_4283.jpg IMG_4284.jpg IMG_4285.jpg IMG_4286.jpg IMG_4287.jpg
    The quarter striking train still sports its rope, but, judging from the spikes, the going and hour-striking trains wore chains. Is it the same in yours?
    Aitor
     
  17. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    Ok, I'm not sure if you need more. So let me know. Looks like the pendulum has a suspension spring. My time train is rope driven. The bells have a couple small washers and a spacer between them. I know you can find Schwarzwalduhr glockes on Ebay.de. Actually, the 2 small bells are quite loud and clear on this clock. Sorry the one photo didn't turn out well.

    wood wheel clock 001.JPG wood wheel clock 002.JPG wood wheel clock 003.JPG wood wheel clock 004.JPG wood wheel clock 005.JPG wood wheel clock 006.JPG wood wheel clock 007.JPG wood wheel clock 008.JPG wood wheel clock 009.JPG wood wheel clock 010.JPG wood wheel clock 011.JPG
     
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  18. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    Many thanks for the pics, Chris!:)
    I'm puzzled by the pendulum cock on my clock. That of your clock looks perfectly logical, but maybe that of mine was broken/modified and now it's missing the slit for the suspension spring and the 'hook' for its retaining pin...:confused: Wish I could get the clock out to take more pics now. It's been years waiting for someone to post a similar one!!:excited:
    BTW, if I recall well, one of those loosely similar clocks on Schaaf's book sported hands of the same kind than those on your clock.

    Aitor
     
  19. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    Yes, it looks like your clock had the end of the pendulum suspension broken off. But now you see what it would have looked like.
    I would like to see what the original dial would have looked like. If you are able, please take a photo from Schaff's book. If not, oh well :?| I will have to get the book myself.
     
  20. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    So, it would not strike as the time passed, but you could activate the repeat function for it to strike? And when you say the nearest quarter hour, what does that mean - that sounds like chimes? What is the strike sequence then?

    Thanks,
    Tom
     
  21. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    Chris,
    About the pendulum suspension, if mine is broken, it looks now as carefully filed and shaped (which puzzles me even more!)
    About Schaaf's book (In German, of course!:rolleyes:) I'll be glad to send you pics, but I wonder if I would be allowed yo post them on the open MB or use a PM. Do you know?

    Aitor
     
  22. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    Tom,
    My movement is not in working condition, but I think that it would strike bim-bam fashion on two bells and strike the PREVIOUS quarter when pulling the cord to activate the striking on demand. Is that OK, Chris?

    Aitor
     
  23. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    The repeat striking of the clock I have....if you can find one photo I took, you will see the teeth on the main wheel (that activate the hammers). They are in two stages...one set of teeth has four teeth, the other set 12 teeth. When the weight is pulled up until it is stopped by the racks...the repeat function is activated when the weight rope is released.
    It will strike the nearest quarter hour on one bell. Then, the hour on the second bell.

    So, you wake up in the middle of night. It's dark. you don't want to light an expensive candle to check the time. (It's 3:50 AM). You pull up the repeat train rope until it stops, then release it. Then the repeat train starts it's strike sequence. The high bell strikes 3 times. Then the other, lower bell strikes 3 times. So you know it's between 3:45, and 4:00.
    This is quarter hour repeating on 2 bells.
    It appears that's how it operates! Furthermore, the great wheel on the repeat train is ratcheted in 2 sections, that separates the 2 sets of teeth...I'm not entirely knowledgeable how all of it works yet.
     
  24. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    Thanks. I'm currently in Malaysia where it is 4:43 PM. What are you doing up at 4:43 AM (assuming you are home in PA)?

    Tom
     
  25. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    I have to go to work! Leaving in 10 minutes :clock: I'm usually working at 5:30. yesterday I started at 6:00, so I got to sleep in (helps on a Monday):thumb: Coffee is already working.
     
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  26. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    It's 11:00 AM here in Spain. While I was having my coffee break, I've realized that (silly me!:oops:) there are two separated sets of pins each side of the wheel and it works like a Surrer striking, as Chris says: Ifirst strikes the precedent quarter on a bell and, then, the precedent hour on the other one.
    On Chris' clock, you would only know the time when pulling the cord. On mine, the hours (Not the halves, I assume from the narrow slots on the count-wheel) would strike authomatically but you would be able to know the previous striken hour and quarter just pulling the rope.
    (Hey, I'm recalling why I found this wrecked clock so interesting when I bought it years ago...:p)

    Aitor
     
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  27. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    Chris, PM sent.

    Aitor
     

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