Black Forest Shield Sharpie Numerals

Discussion in 'Reverse Glass and Dial Painting' started by gleber, Jun 20, 2016.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    774
    1
    18
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I just picked this up today. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to remove the Sharpie numbers. They are quite poorly done as you can see. I'm hoping there is some solvent that would only remove the ink.

    More photos of the whole clock in the Latest Acquisition section.
    20160620_203710.jpg

    Thanks,
    Tom
     
  2. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
    Donor

    Jul 26, 2015
    5,006
    16
    38
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I use ethanol to remove permanent marker at work but you need to try it on an edge to make sure it doesn't soften the paint. I don't think it will remove it all though as it will probably be deep in the paint but it would remove the surface.

    Ethanol isn't much of a solvent so it is worth a try.
     
  3. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    774
    1
    18
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks Novice,

    I don't have any Ethanol, but I experimented with some Isopropyl, and it doesn't take too much elbow grease to clean up. I was surprised - it came off easier than expected and exposed white numbers underneath. I did notice faded white quarter hour numbers, but didn't expect the hours to be white.

    Tom

    20160621_182228.jpg
     
  4. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member Donor

    Mar 31, 2005
    8,033
    12
    38
    Industry Specialist
    Launceston Tasmania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The white numerals are the shadow left once all the paint from the original numerals has been removed. Is that what you intended to do?
     
  5. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    774
    1
    18
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Possibly a good point, but I only see signs of Sharpie, no paint (so I don't think I removed any). The black Sharpie was poorly done and doesn't even come close to matching the white outline. Would the quarter hour numbers have been black? I can see a faint outline of white, but no sign of black on any of them. You can see the 30 in the photo above. That is what i was basing my comments on. It doesn't look like it ever had black? Or, if it did, it seems like it was completely gone before the Sharpie was applied by a former owner.

    Thanks,
    Tom
     
  6. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
    Donor

    Jul 26, 2015
    5,006
    16
    38
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Methylated spirits is mainly ethanol so that works just as well, just smells bad.

    Glad it worked, now you need to repaint the numbers. It's a skilled job, I'd need to get somebody else to do it!
     
  7. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member Donor

    Mar 31, 2005
    8,033
    12
    38
    Industry Specialist
    Launceston Tasmania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Tom, I have seen many, many of these shield clocks and I have never seen one with white numerals. What you have left is where they stencilled on the outline of the numerals. They then filled those in with black paint that was applied with a brush.
     
  8. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    774
    1
    18
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I am working on my skills and am sort of looking forward to this challenge.

    Tom
     
  9. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    774
    1
    18
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yes, that makes sense and I agree, but I wonder where the original black paint went? I can't find any signs of it. I'm not sure if you can see it, but the white outline is visible along the sides of the numeral II in this close up. And the quarter hours numbers that were not Sharpied don't have any signs of black. I'm not doubting you, but it's as if they cleaned the original paint off (and did a good job) before applying the Sharpie (poorly)?

    Tom

    20160622_080245.jpg
     
  10. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
    13,680
    28
    0
    Calif. USA
    The white is the original color of the shield. It had been
    protected by the original numbers from light for many years.
    The original were most likely some form of India ink that
    the binder had failed over the years and washed off.
    The numerals may even be raised a little as the original
    shield white oxidized and wore off.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  11. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
    Donor

    Jun 24, 2011
    2,333
    14
    38
    Male
    Medical Insurance Systems Analyst
    El Dorado, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yes. It seems pretty obvious that some easily removable (likely, water-based) paint or ink was originally used for the numbers and applied over the more durable white paint. It makes sense, really; As, if you were applying the numbers, originally, and there was some kind of a slip, you'd benefit from the ability to wipe off the error and start, again. I'd bet that they just didn't apply any seizing to the finished product to set the numbers.
    I doubt is was a simple failure of the original paint/ink, as there would be more examples out there of clocks with white numbers due simply to time.
     
  12. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    774
    1
    18
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks for the good info guys. It does look like the white is raised a bit over the background. So with all of your help, the conclusion seems to be the dial had black numbers that wore of completely, and then someone came along with a Sharpie and only did the hours.

    Does anyone know of any dial painting tutorials?

    Tom
     
  13. dAz57

    dAz57 Registered User

    Dec 7, 2011
    1,888
    8
    38
    watchmaker
    sydney Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #13 dAz57, Jun 22, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
    When I clean a white dial prior to redoing the numerals, that's what you see, an outline of the original numerals, generally the ink yellows the white paint which is good because I can work out what the original lettering and numerals look like.

    Roman numerals are the easiest to do, use drafting ink pens, rulers and compasses, draw the outlines first then fill them in.


    This particular dial was real bad, the paint was flaking off the metal(tin), took 2 minutes to scrape the old paint off, after etch primer and acrylic lacquer I used the stencil I made, the result is as close to the original I could get.

    20140801_145838.jpg 20140801_153207.jpg 20140803_124245.jpg 20140803_124319.jpg 20140803_154819.jpg 20140805_124121.jpg IMG_20140809_102533.jpg
     
  14. PatH

    PatH Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 5, 2014
    215
    4
    18
    Female
    Texas
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The August 1988 Bulletin, page 298, has an article by James B. West called "Let's Paint a Dial" in which he describes the steps for painting a dial. I think the article should give you an idea of what's involved and how to get started. There is also an online video called "The Art of the Painted Dial" by M.F. Tennant (591D). You'll have to be logged on to the NAWCC website to view this video that provides a great overview of restoring a white painted dial.

    Just a couple of sources that might help provide some background.
     
  15. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    774
    1
    18
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I cleaned off the numbers and reapplied them. I didn't want to paint them completely opaque since the artwork is faded and I am probably not going go through the expense of having that professionally redone. I used a black ball point pen and outlined them and then added a hatch pattern. I like the overall look, but might go back and darken it just a bit more. I found the ball point pen didn't cover completely opaque and it preserves the well worn look. What do you think?

    Tom

    Before 20160620_203710.jpg



    After 20160710_115720.jpg
     
  16. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
    Donor

    Jul 26, 2015
    5,006
    16
    38
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It is a huge improvement in draughtsmanship, but I agree could be a bit darker.
     
  17. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    774
    1
    18
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks Novice. Now I'm another step closer to actually doing that.

    Tom
     
  18. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 30, 2002
    3,920
    2
    38
    I would have used an ink or paint that is easily reversible, that would come off with a solvent that won't affect the rest of the dial. Ball point ink may be difficult to remove; it also may bleed over time into the surrounding paint.
     
  19. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    774
    1
    18
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks for the comment Jeremy. I knew I didn't want opaque black since I probably won't attempt the artwork and can't afford a professional and don't think the clock is worth it. The previous sharpie version didn't look right even if it was done neater. It was either redo completely or work with what I got and try to preserve the look. I chose the latter. I was able to clean up my mistakes very well with a simple pencil eraser, but I think the ink is beginning to set. I can still erase some of it, but not as cleanly. The shade is just about right from across the room and it looks equally worn with the rest of the dial. I didn't think about the possibility of bleeding, but the painted surface does not seem very porous, so I hope I don't end up saying, I should have listened to Jeremy." And, hopefully I won't ever have to remove it.

    I do appreciate hearing your opinion.

    Tom
     
Loading...
Similar Threads - Black Forest Shield Forum Date
What was used to black out the glasses on early to mid 1800's Banjo's, etc. Reverse Glass and Dial Painting Mar 30, 2011
Repainting a black background on glass Reverse Glass and Dial Painting Jul 4, 2010
Black Dial, Gold numbers Reverse Glass and Dial Painting Aug 30, 2009

Share This Page