Bit of an unusual combination?

Discussion in 'Wood Movement Clocks' started by rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Sep 20, 2014.

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  1. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    I thought this was a bit of an unusual combination which I believe to be original.

    It is a bevel front clock.

    The case is pine with old thick well book matched mahogany veneer on the front.

    The edges have suffered quite a few veneer losses.

    The single divided door has a nice old clear piece of glass above and now a nice period mirror and backing below.

    Note that the openings above the pulleys are round rather than the usual rectangles.

    The lower inner back board has the typical label of Eli Terry Jr & Co. It is just like one in a shelf clock by another maker I own.

    The wooden works are 30 hour, weight driven, time and strike. The hour arbor is square...albeit now with an epoxy repair. I will leave it to others to do the taxonomy and assign it a number.

    It fits just right between the rails. Seems original to me.

    Note the dial. It is raw zinc or tin. The spandrels are painted. The Roman numerals are painted directly on the metal. The "V" and "VII" have been retouched by a total klutz.

    The dial is rather heavy and thick.

    Everything lines up just right. There are no extra holes or shadows.

    So an Eli Terry, Jr & Co wooden works bevel front with a metal dial.

    The dial reminds me very much of the early dials used by E.C. Brewster on his shelf clocks.

    See this Bulletin article by Joyce Wahler and look at the dials on the earlier examples of his clocks:

    http://www.nawcc.org/images/stories/2000/articles/2000/326/326_293a.pdf

    I can't say I've seen many wooden works with metal dials before.

    In 2003, Cowan's sold the collection of Paul A. Heffner. Great Ohio material. See Lot 31. It's a Pritchard & Spinning, Dayton, OH wooden works column and splat clock with "unusual painted zinc dial with black surround, Arabic numerals painted on unpainted zinc ground". Looks a lot like this one. I could scan it if there are no objections and it won't be removed.

    Below I've posted an Ives SPRING driven wooden works with a metal dial which was once in the Larson collection. I think a rather similar dial.

    Finally, I did find on line an Eli Terry, Jr. & Co with what looked like a similar dial. It did not state if it was a wooden works clock. Alas, you know what for brains over here did not save the image and now I can't find it again.

    Appreciate any info and other examples.

    RM
     

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  2. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
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    RM,

    Definitely unusual, though as you note not unique. The vertical rails don't offer any reason to believe the dial isn't original. Jerome was using plain zinc dials as early as 1838, so the use of these dials is certainly consistent (in time) with E. Terry, Jr & Co (1835-1841). To the best of my knowledge, the earliest Jerome zinc dials did not have painted spandrels; instead, the spandrels were painted on the glass. The painted floral spandrels on your clock are a much simpler treatment of the ones found on polychrome wood movement dials and seem to be foreshadowing the use of painted spandrels on white background dials (wood and zinc) typically found on ogees. One thing strikes me as a little off-putting: the large central, un-decorated area. On an early brass movement clock, there would have been an opening allowing you to see a portion of the movement. That opening also avoids leaving an expanse of blank dial. Because of the larger size on your wood movement dial, the blank area sticks out.

    Your movement appears to be a typical E. Terry & Co. type 1.117.

    Mike
     
  3. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Looks like it has also been bushed with brass?
     
  4. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Thanks for your interest.

    As mentioned, the painting of the spandrels of these dials reminds me most of those used by E.C. Brewster.

    As you point out, Jerome used zinc dials but they were round and the actual dials themselves were undecorated.

    The few instances of metal dials on wooden works clocks I could find were all "solid" in the center. Like their wooden dial colleagues.

    RM
     
  5. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
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    One big difference, though, is that the wood dial on wooden works clocks typically had ornamentation in the center that relieved the "blankness." Even the simplest of gilt wreaths serves to break up the monotony. All of which suggests to me that Terry may have been experimenting with zinc dials and hadn't quite gotten it right at the beginning.

    Any idea when Brewster started doing the painted spandrels?
     
  6. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    1838-43 or so.

    Wahler's articles keep on coming up and links have recently been posted.

    Check those out for more info.

    RM
     
  7. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    I was plowing through past issues of the Cog Counter's Journal and I was reminded of something I completely forgot about.

    I found an example of an 8 day ww clock converted to 30 hour. I had a round zinc dial.

    Another use of a metal dial with ww?

    RM
     
  8. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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  9. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    The veneers on this clock are stunning. I especially like the dial spandrels. Seeing ONLY the spandrels, I'd guess it's an 1840s piece simply by the style. I can't say that I've seen many raw zinc dials, and never combined with painted corner spandrels. Te circular top holes are also very unusual. I don't think I've ever seen any round pulley holes, although it would have been so much easier to make them round, and I don't see why more makers didn't go this route. I'd have to go through my extensive archive to see if I've come across any similar examples (it's quite possible that I have, since I tend to catalogue/save pics of all unusual pieces I find). I'll let you know.
     
  10. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    I did a quick search (and only a partial search) of my files, and I turned up an E.C. Brewster clock with a very similar zinc dial with painted border in white with painted spandrels (similar to your eBay dial above), however it's on a brass movement clock, and has the large circular centre opening. I'd be happy to e-mail you a copy of the photo if you want.
     
  11. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Sooth,

    Thanks for your kind words and contributions to this thread.

    Please see earlier on this thread where the dial on the subject clock is compared to those of the E.C. Brewster clocks and those used on some rather rare J.S. Ives spring driven wooden works shelf clocks.

    Great minds think alike?:screwball::cyclops:

    RM
     
  12. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Previously I have reported an Eli Terry, Jr & Co. wooden works bevel front with a heavy zinc metal dial. Please see that posting below.

    Tonight, I am posting another wooden works (ww) shelf clock with a virtually identical dial but this time in a small empire case. Probably no surprise to anyone that these clocks were made late in ET, Jr.'s career. However, I think the clock I'm posting tonight connects those ww clocks with heavy zinc dials to the last days of Eli Terry, Jr & Co. and the transitional period when Blakesley and Welton came to occupy "The Old Stand". I will will also do some side by side comparison of this clock with an early brass spring cast iron back plate containing product of E.C. Brewster. I think that an argument can be made that the empire clock clock may also reflect a more widespread though based upon my anecdotal knowledge of surviving examples not a frequent practice related to the transition from ww to smaller brass works clocks.

    WARNING: this is a long boring posting but I'm trying to build a case (no pun intended) for some useless horological trivia. And hey, it's my thread.

    As mentioned, the clock is in an empire case. It has a pine carcass with rather plain mahogany veneer. To me, it's almost a miniature being only 23 inches tall, including the cornice. There is a single divided glazed door with a reverse painted tablet below:

    IMG_6770.JPG

    Some comments on the condition of the case. There are, in my opinion, 2 significant issues. The cornice is stained pine. I believe it should be veneered. However, the color of the back of the cornice looks really good. Even shares with the top of the case those paint drips often found on antique furniture and clocks. I suspect that the veneer on the cornice was damaged so it was removed and the underlying pine was just stained. If so, it happened long ago. Doesn't look so bad, either. The other issue is the tablet. It appears to be professionally done. However, to my eyes it's a 20 ft glass. Looks good up to 20 feet away. I feel it's of middling quality and the color pallet is too dark and its just not right. It's possible there was originally a mirror based upon my having seen brass works clocks with this case. However, it was done on a nice piece of old glass properly puttied in. Finally, the original upper clear glass has a crack.

    The inner back board has a label for Eli Terry, Jr & Co. printed by J.H. Lathrop of Hartford, CT. See Bulletin 186, page 71. He is listed in the Hartford, CT directory of 1838. This was the only Bulletin reference about him I could find:

    IMG_6767.JPG IMG_6768.JPG

    The labels in my E.T., Jr and Co. "box clock", bevel front with metal dial and this clock are all identical. By the way, here are some pix of the box clock. It has a more typically found wood dial:

    Terry 1.JPG Terry 2.JPG

    Here is a pic of the movement of the empire clock. I will leave the taxonomy to others as I am just no good at that stuff. It is NOT the same as in the bevel front. However, it is the same as in the box clock:

    IMG_6763.JPG

    Note that the movement slats have cut outs for a seat board. I've included pix of them with the movement removed:

    IMG_6760.JPG IMG_6762.JPG

    They were never used. There is no evidence that there was ever another movement in this case.

    Now, getting to the dial. It is the first pic posted. The only dial that was ever in this clock. It is heavy thick zinc without a central opening. The Roman numerals and chapter ring are painted directly on the raw zinc. The spandrels are decorated with flowers on a pale blue background. To my eyes, it is nearly identical to the one in the bevel front (second one posted):

    IMG_6765.JPG Terry metal 7.JPG terry dial.jpg

    The link to an ended sale with a picture of similar loose metal dial croaked so I included a pic of that dial. It's the one with the yellow flowers painted on the spandrels, the last one posted.

    Yes, I do have permission to post images of that dial on the MB. Relax, no one is going to be sued.

    These dials inevitably lead to a comparison with those used on the earlier empire style clocks by E.C. Brewster which house 30 hour cast iron back plate movements with brass springs. For such a comparison, I am posting pix of an E.C. Brewster and Co. empire shelf clock. The similarities between the dials are hard to deny:

    IMG_6774.JPG IMG_6773.JPG IMG_6772.JPG

    I would tend to conclude they were made by the same firm? By the way, for the few interested, the E.C. Brewster clock has what Joyce Wahler refers to in her wonderful article about these clocks (I've previously posted links) as the "second phase" movement, ie, spoked great wheels behind which are brass disks, rounded verge support bar and the count wheel retained on the inner side of the back plate by a wire loop amongst other features. Note the same cast iron gong bases retained by 3 screws was also used in all of the ET, Jr clocks mentioned as well as the Brewster.

    Now, to get the main point, finally.

    See Roberts "Eli Terry and the CT Shelf Clock", 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] edition, pages 332-338. As indebted as I am to him for his important and significant legacy of wonderful research, eye for relevant detail and his writings, reading his books is like reading the "begat" sections of the Old Testament.

    Around 1839, ET, Jr & Co came to an end. M.Blakesley & Co. and H. Welton & Co. began to use his former facilities.

    See page 335, figures192A, 192B and a close-up of the label on page 332, figure 192C (another whoops?). Figure 192A is a picture of a Blakesley BRASS works clock. It's the same case as my clock but minus its cornice! I've seen other examples of that clock and my recollection is that the cornice is very similar to mine, but with veneer.

    Figure 192B is an interior shot. Note the cut outs for the seat board. It's where they are in my clock. Note the gong. Note the label as pictured there and in figure 192C. There's no mention of the printer, but it's basically the same label as in the ET, Jr & Co. clocks.

    I conclude that the empire style clock was made about or shortly after the time of the ending of Eli Terry, Jr & Co and the beginning of the use of his former facilities by Blaskeley and Welton in 1839, or so. Could it could be that as Terry, Jr. was winding down his affairs, he may have cased his remaining ww movements in one obtained from Blakesley? Possibly left over movements and labels were placed in available cases by Blakesley? I also propose that these somewhat odd ET, Jr. and Co. ww with metal dials were all made during this period. Finally I also suspect there was a common source for the dials used by Brewster and these clocks and possibly those made by Jerome.

    One more bit of trivia. Again, see Roberts, pages 335-337. Especially see figures 195 for a picture of a round sided case with cornice of the type used by Jerome containing a 30 hour weight driven brass works by H. Welton with a John Hunt label. Now, see Brown and Oeschle, "Good For a Time", page 102. Pictured is a ww clock by Seth Thomas in one of those cases. On page 103 is pictured yet another Seth Thomas ww in one of those cases. SO, I also propose that as the transition was occurring from wood to brass works, especially smaller more desirable clocks with brass spring movements was in full swing, they were sticking some of the remaining ww into those cases as well.

    Some of these clocks seem to have been made using a cocktail shaker. A dash of this and a dash of that and shake it up and there you have it.

    Must have been an interesting time in Bristol. Rather fluid. Swapping movements, dials, cases, gongs, other parts.

    Love to hear what folks think.

    RM
     
  13. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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  14. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    #14 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Dec 26, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2015
    Hey Sooth,

    Joyeux Noel et Bonne Annee!

    Thanks for your interest.

    Here's some of the additional pix I already have of the clock I refer to as the "box clock". Can provide more:

    Terry 1.JPG Terry 2.JPG Terry 4.JPG Terry  5.JPG Terry 3.JPG Terry 6.JPG

    If you have a copy of Brown and Oechsle's "Good for a Time", see page 149. There is one of these pictured. HOWEVER, I think that clock originally had a cornice like mine but it's gone missing.

    It's also pictured here: http://www.cottoneauctions.com/lots/2897/eli-terry-jr-co-terrysville-ct-plain-box-case

    I've looked at your original thread. Thought Jim's suggestion was a good possibility.

    For some reason, Jerome popped into my head. I can't help thinking I've seen a Jerome ww with that case but I cannot say if my recollection is accurate and if so how to document it.

    I also need to correct an error I made in my first post. The authors of "Eli Terry and the CT Shelf Clock" are Roberts and Taylor not just Roberts.

    RM
     
  15. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Thanks so much for the follow-up photos.

    I've been reluctant to do much work on that case because of the complete lack of information that I have about it, however, I've begun some veneer restoration work on it. It's definitely not entirely similar to this Eli Terry clock, but it shares a few similarities, and that's all. At this point, I figure "anything is better than nothing" and I've been saving/documenting as many similar clocks as I can find. I don't have an extremely extensive library, but I do have a fair number of decent books, as well as several thousand imaged saved over a decade now, but I have not found another clock with the centre mahogany door like the orphan case I bought. Your intuition towards Jerome is not unfounded either. Jerome occasionally used a centre glass with advertizing slogans in their larger 8 day models, but these were fixed to the case, and not part of the door.

    I should go through my files again and revise/revive that thread.
     
  16. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
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    RM,

    Can't argue much with what you've put together. Nice sleuthing. Fleshing things out a little more, I'm posting images of a Terry, Jr. & Co. stepped cornice top clock. Same case, same label, same movement. Many, many years ago (in a galaxy far, far away...oh, wait, wrong story), I wrote to Ward Francillon about this clock. I have searched high and low over the years to find his reply with no luck. However, my recollection is that he believed that this clock was mentioned in a letter from Terry, Jr & Co (dated 5 Mar 1840) as "a new case about the size of the common bronze clock a good mahogany case...". Page 333 of Roberts & Taylor has a more complete excerpt:

    "We have sold a part of the tools & remainder of the stock with some movements to clocks [in exchange] for 50 small 30 hour clocks Beveled cases polished & 50 small Cornice tops the same kind M Blakesley & Co use for 30 hour Brass clocks - and about 200 30 hour clocks in a new case about the size of the common bronze clock a good mahogany case - this lot of about 300 clocks we will put to you at 4$ one year Cr - the movement made by Eli Terry Jr. & Co. We hope you will feel it for you interest to order all of these clocks." (italics mine)

    This letter seems to indicate that Terry purchased (in exchange) the small cornice top cases. It's not clear to me whether the "new" cases were also obtained from Blakesley & Co. Depends on how you read the sentence. The small cornice top cases are almost certainly the "roundsides" that you refer to above. And, according to Ward, the new cases are the stepped cornice cases. As you hypothesize, these are all late, as Terry was trying to wind up his affairs.

    This last bit of trivia concerns the movement. Going by Snowden's classification scheme, it is categorized as a type 1.124, maker T.M. Roberts. Terry, Jr. & Co. was not a known user of Roberts' movement. The few examples I've seen of this stepped cornice clock have this movement, so I don't believe this is a situation of a marriage. Note that the letter from Terry, Jr. refers to "the movement made by Eli Terry Jr. & Co." In terms of external appearance, aside from the round hour shaft, these movements are identical to many movements made by the various Terry firms (which typically had a square hour shaft). Ward believed this to be a late Terry Jr. movement. I'm a little surprised that Snowden Taylor doesn't report it in his table. Terry Jr. & Co. did make a movement with a round hour shaft (type 1.152), but it has larger access holes. So, a bit of a mystery.

    Mike
     

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  17. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Sooth,

    Good luck! I'll be following with interest.

    Mike,

    Thanks so much for the additional information. I did miss that letter which I think is crucial! And I scanned that page few times!!

    Gee, I would bet dollars to donuts that the small cornice tops referred to in the letter by Eli Terry, Jr. you quote were those used by Blakesley as shown on page 335. I think my choice of words was a bit unclear. I refer to those cases as empire. Should have used the description used by Taylor and Roberts, "veneered column and cornice". When I said "round side", I was referring to the case of the clock labeled by John Hunt (and Jerome?) shown on page 337. Again, I should have used the Taylor and Roberts description of "1/2 round-side cornice clock".

    Note that in that letter, Eli Terry, Jr. refers to bevel cases. I just wonder if he's in fact referring to the first clock I posted on this thread?

    The "new cases" could very well be the stepped cornice ones. They're basically a box and easy to put together so probably kept costs down. Also note in that letter Eli Terry, Jr. states "the movement made by Eli Terry, Jr. & Co." I suspect that the movements were though it's not listed as such in Snowden's classification table. His table may be exhaustive but not necessarily complete.

    May the force be with you.

    RM
     
  18. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    #18 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Dec 28, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2015
    See CCJ, # 31, Summer, 2009, page 10.

    It's a report of a Seth Thomas ww ogee. It was produced rather late for a ww, the early 1840's. That clock is only 24 inches tall.

    What caught my eye was the statement "the dial is heavy zinc". The pix of the dial aren't great. It appears that rather than being "raw" zinc, the dial is painted white with Arabic numerals and spandrel decoration then applied.

    Finally, that report leads back to Roberts' and Taylor's "Eli Terry" book, pages 311 and 315 and figure 179A. Pictured there is another example. It does not mention whether the dial is wood or metal.

    So here's ST making small simple (= inexpensive?) late ww clocks with metal dials. It's also interesting to note that EC Brewster went from producing dials with the numerals and decoration applied to the "raw" zinc to white painted dials to which the numerals and decoration were then applied. In both instances, the dials were heavier then would typically be later metal dials.

    Here's a link to a recent posting of one like it (?): https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?129417-Help-Identify-(Early-Seth-Thomas-Wood-Movement-Ogee-)&highlight:^gee

    RM
     
  19. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    I happened to stumble upon this article by Mary Jane Dapkus: http://nawcc.org/images/stories/2010/articles/2010/384/384_065-074.pdf

    Scroll down to pages 68-9. Also see the clock illustrated in figures 5A and 5B.

    The stepped cornice case is felt to be then "new pattern case" replacing the by then dated "bronze looking glass" case.

    Also note the movement and the tablet in that clock.

    Confirms what has been said.

    RM
     
  20. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
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    RM,

    Good to know we get it right every once in awhile. I had no recollection of the Mary Jane Dapkus article, which is somewhat frustrating. I would have thought her findings related to this stepped cornice clock would have found a storage place in my brain for interesting tidbits. I've always enjoyed reading her research.

    Mike
     
  21. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    #21 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Jul 19, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
    Here's a picture of another example of a Terry ww in an empire case (minus the cornice) with a metal dial I came across.

    Just thought I would add it to the record.

    Terry metal 11.jpg

    I like the great contrast between the dark painted (blue? black?) spandrels and the yellow flowers.

    Case a bit different but more alike. This clock has a lock with diamond shaped bone escutcheon. Mine has a turnbuckle.

    Note the glass. Very nice with that heart shaped oculus. No boarder. Looks quite convincing to me as being original or at least period. The Terry's used glasses like this. When I described my clock below, I suggested that it probably had a mirror. Not so sure now. Also look how high up the oculus is on this clock versus mine. I know my clock runs well with the current pendulum length. Don't know what movement is present in this new example.

    RM
     

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