Bibliography

Discussion in 'Horological Books' started by Grouse, Sep 19, 2006.

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  1. Grouse

    Grouse Guest

    Sam Kirk has developed this Special Project where the User can submit information that would be approved by an Editor-in-Chief.

    I am interested in the Bibliography area. I would like to see more individuals posting their Book Collection. If you are interested in helping Please Register and Provide your real name in the Signature block.

    http://www.kirxklox.com/project/books.html
     
  2. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    My bibliography (available as a free download) lists just under 2,500 books and pamphlets related to watches. There are probably about the same number of books dealing with clocks, sun dials, etc. If Sam or you want to, you can extract the bibliographic info (but not the reviews) and add them to your data base.

    There is also an old bibliography at http://www.ubr.com/clocks/bib/rsbl/rsbl.html which covers all aspects of horology.
     
  3. Grouse

    Grouse Guest

    That is the nice thing about Sam's Special Project. It is not an individual effort, but an effort of many members. So instead of Sam having to ask your permission to use your information, you can provide it directly to the project yourself.
     
  4. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    I have no problem with anyone using the basic bibliographical info, which is all that Sam has in his list. I could probably extract it from my data base, but I may not be able to produce it in the format Sam is using - so a lot of massaging would be needed. Still, it would be a quick and easy way to add 2000 or so entries to the current 250 odd.
     
  5. Grouse

    Grouse Guest

    Taking a Data Base from your site without written permission is against Sam's Policies. He could do it if you would email your permission. Now I can not guarentee that the Programmer he is working with would be willing to strip it out.

    You should also register on his Special Project for proper documentation of the DB.

    You are correct in that it would help his Special Project.
     
  6. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Gary, you need to distinguish two things.

    First, basic bibliographic data (author, title, publisher, pages etc.) cannot be copyright. (Imagine internet sites advertising "book $150"! It would make buying interesting!) I culled titles from many different sources and anyone can cull titles from my bibliography if they want to. Its nice to be asked and acknowledged, but in reality unnecessary.

    In contrast, my reviews are my own work and copyright, so I would expect to be asked and acknowledged if someone wanted to republish them.

    Contents descriptions are a bit dubious. Where they are simply summaries of tables of contents then they are in the public domain. Some are my own words and could be copyright, but I really wouldn't care much if they were copied.

    Extracting information from the public PDF file on my web site would be difficult. extracting from the original FileMaker Pro database on my computer would be much easier, but limited by its format. I could certainly provide a bibliographic file which could probably be massaged using MS Word wildcard search/replace.

    So Sam can copy what bibliographic stuff he wants and, anyway, this public statement is as good or better than a private email to him.
     
  7. Grouse

    Grouse Guest

    Sorry,

    To many posts come up missing.

    Not copyright, just courtesy.

    As one of his programmers, I am not willing to do this.
     
  8. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    A general remark about bibliographies ...

    Most bibliographies do no more than tell you a book exists. However, with the exception of book collectors, existance is a minor point. What people really want to know is how USEFUL a book is for their particular purposes.

    Consequently I believe the importance of my bibliography lies in the book reviews and the indexes.

    Undoubtedly people will disagree with some of my reviews, but at least they provide some guidance to a book's contents and quality. So, with a bit of luck, you can choose books that are more likely to be helpful than not.

    The indexing is, admittedly, a bit of a nightmare. Currently the main contents index has over 29,000 entries - and if I managed to index all the books there would be over 100,000 entries! It is certainly a long, long way from perfect. Even so,I find it does provide a very useful tool for locating possible sources of information on specific topics.
     
  9. Grouse

    Grouse Guest

    One of the areas of responsibility I am looking into is being able to provide specific recommended Reading Lists to be pulled from the Data Base.

    There is another DB that is being made that has over 40,000 entries and searchable.

    Sam's bibliography will be searchable by Author or Title, but that is in the future. Right now it is to be presented as multiple Web Pages in Alpha/Numeric order. Just a simple Book List that individuals can take to a SE and find more information about.
     
  10. Bill Ward

    Bill Ward Registered User
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    I should hasten to add that the NAWCC, which pays for this Board, also provides a great on-line bibliographic service in the form of its Library catalog. Arguably the greatest horological library in the world, the catalog is available in two formats from this page:

    http://www.nawcc.org/Library/library.htm

    The lending library catalog is available as a downloadable Adobe Acrobat (pdf) file. This includes almost all recently printed books on horology, as well as many rarer items. What's more, members can check out all these items by mail for a small postage fee.
    The whole collection (with the exception of the vertical file contents, the archives of private collections, the patent collection, and certain unpublished materials) are accessable through a card catalog search.
     
  11. Fortunat Mueller-Maerki

    Fortunat Mueller-Maerki National Library Chair
    NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Aug 25, 2000
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    Horological Bibliographer -
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    Bill Ward says:
    "The whole collection (with the exception of the vertical file contents, the archives of private collections, the patent collection, and certain unpublished materials) are accessable through a card catalog search."

    Unfortunatly the way Bill worded it that is not quite the case. It is true that all books in the Library and Research Center LARC (about 10'000 titles) are accessible through the online catalog by author, titel or keyword. (and parenthetically that is why I do not understand what Sam Kirks little booklist would offer that is not already available at the LARC online catalog) The LARC catalog is at:

    http://www.nawcc.us/winnebago/index.asp?lib=:???:

    Bookmark it and use it.

    However there is MUCH information in LARC that does NOT appear in the online catalog. For one thing its extensive holdings of horological periodicals (Current and historic, in a dozen different languages) are not catalogued.(aANd of course the content of these periodicals down to the article level are not cataloged)

    Also the many thousand auction catalogs are not catalogs.

    Also the several thousand historic catalogs of watch and clock manufactureres do not appear in the catalog.

    The vertical files (clipping files by subjects) are partially cataloged ( subject headings, i.e. the file title of each folder, is cataloged about 1/3 through the alphabet, but the individual clippings in the files are NOT cataloged).

    In spite of these limitations the LARC online catalog today is the most comprehensive on;line bibliographical resource currently open to the public.

    For a period of 4 years a subgroup of the library committee has been building a tool and infrastructure for a truely comprehensive horological bibliographic database: It will be called: Bibliographia Horologiae Mundi, and aims to offer a database architecture and structure that will allow for detailed contents cataloging as well as cataloging publications as such. More over that database will include content summaries, and searches by subjects (as well as by keywords).

    Bibliographia Horologiae Mundi is designed as a global cooperative project with partners around the world contributing data. Furthermore it will allow (this feature is not built yet) registered users to use the data of the database built build catalogs of their own library without reentering all the publication data.

    If you are interested to serve as a beta tester for this venture e-mail me off message board to horology@horology.com
     
  12. Grouse

    Grouse Guest

    Mr Mueller-Maerki:

    Having a searchable Data Base is one of the greatest functions that can be done on the Internet, however you are making light of a very comprehensive program that Mr Kirk is developing. It is a Data Base also and can have a search function added if at a later time he deams it is desirable. The difference is that all the books he is compiling is presented as an ONLINE resourse making them available for all the Search Engines to identify and do an even better job at being able to Index on the World's Net. A data base as you have developed does not provide the world the visibility that could so easily be done this way.

    Most of the members of NAWCC that Mr Kirk is talking to do not know the first thing about how to use such a tool in the first place.

    Check out the Special Project now. I have helped to add over 1000 entries in the last week. Many more will be added in the near future. We are even considering adding the capability for those that have read these books to place online their personal short remarks.
     
  13. Bill Ward

    Bill Ward Registered User
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    I've probably forgotten other things in the Library Collections, as well, which are not indexed in the Winnebago system. On the othr hand, some items which you might not expect to be included, such as videos, are. I was implicitly comparing it to the usual card catalog, which doesn't normally include ephemera or verical file type items.
    It's undoubtably a good thing to have books visible to web search engines. However, perhaps because of the vast number of books, most of the general purpose search engines, like Google, limit their searches for books, and refer the user to a specialized search engine. Google has it's own specialized book search engine, which searches the text of a limitedd number of on-line books. For the rest, it refers you to library search pages. Some engines refer you to Amazon, which, in fact, is what my local library uses for an on-line "books in print" catalog. It seems to me that books have been largely, perhaps willfully, ignored in the online world.
     
  14. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    I am going to repeat myself. Knowing that a book exists is one of the LEAST useful bits of information. It is also information that is readily available. You can search ABE on "horology" (http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchEntry) and come up with 4000 to 5000 entries (including a lot of duplicates) which cover much (most?) of the available books in the area. Or search the NAWCC library, or ..., or even my bibliography.

    But knowing if a book is USEFUL is much, much harder to discover. For example, if you are interested in polishing steel watch parts with a tin lap, where do you go? Well, I bet you wouldn't try looking at Kendrick & Davis "Staking tools and how to use them"; but it contains a long, very good section on just that! And how many other books have hidden gems? And how many are, in fact, not worth reading?

    In reality, most people go looking for books to answer questions that concern them. And in most cases the least useful source of help is the standard author/title/date/publisher bibliography.

    And even if you think you have found a useful book, what is it worth to you? Consider "A journey in time, the remarkable story of Seiko". I have read this and I think it is an excellent book and well worth reading. Now there is one copy available on an internet book site. The book is described as "Seiko Watch Hardcover Well illustrated. In slip-case." and the asking porice is US$241.88 (the copy is in England). If you collect Seiko watches should you buy it? No! No! No! First, it is a small book published in 2003 and should only cost around US$20. Second, if you write to Seiko and ask about it there is a good chance that you will be sent a FREE copy; I was. (Moral: Do NOT trust booksellers!)

    The point I am making is that people who are seeking information need a means of finding that information (DETAILED subject indexes) and some way to assess value (reviews and price guides). And nearly all the "bibliographies" I have examined are useless from these perspectives.
     
  15. Grouse

    Grouse Guest

    You are all missing what Sam's "Special Projects" are all about. It is not that Sam is putting online this information, but the MEMBERS of Web Horology are directly inputing most of the information.

    Richard: Politics aside, this information is doing exactly what Sam wants it to do. :biggrin:
     
  16. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    It seems to me that Sam, and apparently Gary, are building a Wiki style facility that will allow individuals to post reviews and commentaries on books on-line. The base catalog entries are the hooks on which the commentaries are hung. Given the availability of the basic bibliographic information on-line I would have thought this first step was pretty easy.

    I don't know how practical this will be but I am interested in the outcome. I also don't know that Google and Yahoo will decide to provide an index to the resource by including it in their crawls. There are no references to it at the moment that I have been able to find.

    There are also no references to the NAWCC pdf file containing the LARC Catalog.

    Will a Wiki annotated bibliography of horolgy be useful? It will depend on the quality of the editorial committee and how well and quickly they screen the input. It certainly could be useful with enough manpower and talent.
     
  17. Grouse

    Grouse Guest

    Tom: You are almost correct in your evaluation of what several of us are doing. HOWEVER, it is not as easy as you may believe it is. Placing over a thousand entries stretched the usability of the Controls where we are having to redesign some of them. :frown:

    Later this week I will release the parameters of what is being used by Bandwidth and Storage. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
     
  18. Grouse

    Grouse Guest

    I have not received the statistics on the Bibliography yet. That should be available later this week. In the meantime here are the statistics on the "Torsion Times Index"

    17 Web pages using ~9-10 KB per page
    889 Line Items(Records) with a Total of 78.0 KB.
     
  19. Grouse

    Grouse Guest

    Chris and I finished the massive upload today for the Bibliograhy. Here are the statistics;

    26 Web Pages ~13-17 KB per Web Page
    2525 Line Items (Records) with a total of 356.5 KB.

    We are going to be putting up a Blog type entry for comments on each title to display the last 5 entries and a clickable link to view all. Could be interesting if anyone participates. It will require registration to make comments. Just to keep Spammers and other Nasty Entries out.
     
  20. Jon Hanson

    Jon Hanson Registered User
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    It is a real shame that more folks don't read books Sam Kirk has created some great book info on web horology as well as on his special projects!

    TAKE A LOOK!
     
  21. Fortunat Mueller-Maerki

    Fortunat Mueller-Maerki National Library Chair
    NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Aug 25, 2000
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    I could not agree more with you John.

    It is a pitty most horologict seem to be bibliophobes rather than bibliophiles.

    The most usefull tool for any horologist is knowledge and the best way to aquire knowledge is to study texts: Books both old and new, periodicals both current and historic.

    Happy reading everybody

    Fortunat
     
  22. kirklox

    kirklox Registered User

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    I am only interested in presenting Horological information as Web Pages. This provides the World the oportunity to find information and to become more interested in the science of Horology. Hopefully, this will lead more people to become members of NAWCC.

    That is why all of my new web sites will be member interactive and will be supervised by an Editor-in-Chief to validate the information.

    Thanks to all that are attempting to help with this major project.

    Sam Kirk
     
  23. kirklox

    kirklox Registered User

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    Did You Know! In my "Special Project", the Bibliography, went from one web page six months ago to 5 pages six weeks ago and now it is 26 pages and when I add the next level there will be the possibility of over 2500 web pages if every book is commented on.

    Once I get this in place, it will only take a member 5-15 minutes to add a comment. Registration and review of each entry will be required.
     
  24. Fortunat Mueller-Maerki

    Fortunat Mueller-Maerki National Library Chair
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    SORRY POSTEDE THIS TO THE WRONG THREAD



    John

    here are a few figures extracted from the LIBRARY DIRECTORS MONTHLY REPORT


    LARC statistics 2006
    Month/Visitors/Books Lent/Videos lent/Total lent

    MAR 187 191 190 381
    APR 125 220 191 411
    MAY 178 197 130 327
    JUN 226 163 176 339
    JUL 224 179 121 300
    AUG 257 164 191 355
    SEP 193 204 153 357

    In addition the Library typically handles between 100 aqnd 200 research requests per month from members, and catalogs over 100 newly aquired items each month.

    These volumes stretch the available staff resources to the limit.

    As expected there are sizable variations over time, many attributable to the number of studenbts enrolled in classes at the school of horology.

    Hope this is helpfull

    Fortunat Mueller-Maerki
     
  25. kirklox

    kirklox Registered User

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    Tom: I was hoping to have my "Special Project" Bibliography upgraded this week. We plan on rolling it out late next week. We are going to roll it out and then do massive changes to the portal to allow easier Admin and user controls. Just to find anything in the Admin area for the "Bibliography" is a real pain.
     
  26. Jon Hanson

    Jon Hanson Registered User
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    When can we expect this?
     
  27. kirklox

    kirklox Registered User

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    It is better Late than NEVER. We are including some BIG surprises with this upgrade. We are going to be including the ability to organize it Alphabetically by (Author, Title) or (Title, Author) and then to allow a Basic Search Function. Comments/Reviews will be a great addition. 500 characters truncated for output, but view all will allow the complete Review to be displayed.

    The ability to use UBB code to enter the Review is what has taken so much time. We will be adding more UBB code as time permits.

    This should be completed by Monday Evening.

    Tom: I think you will really appreciate the complexity of what is offered.

    Fortunat: I will be able to attach your Book Reviews directly to the listed Book, or better yet you can.
     
  28. kirklox

    kirklox Registered User

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  29. kirklox

    kirklox Registered User

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  30. Timebuilder

    Timebuilder Registered User

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    Good job Sam, looks like a lot of work.
     
  31. Jon Hanson

    Jon Hanson Registered User
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    FABULOUS EFFORT--something everyone in the assoc should appreciate, but will they:???:
     
  32. Timebuilder

    Timebuilder Registered User

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    Jon, it is a great effort on Sam's part. I have reviewed some of what he has done and the time he has spent must be great. I know that from just what little I do on the web.

    I think that as time goes on and more people become aware of his efforts and the incredible amount of information he has made available to everyone, more will appreciate it.

    I have tried posting his information on one of our boards in hopes of driving more people to his information as I consider it a very valuable tool to all who have an interest in horology.
     
  33. kirklox

    kirklox Registered User

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    The great thing about this system, "It is no longer my effort, but the possibility of thousand of members individual efforts that can be used." I no longer have to mark up with HTML every input that goes up, it is all done by programming. The way it is being done eliminates spammers and physhers from access and it allows an Editor-in-Chief to determine validity for Horological input.
     
  34. Jon Hanson

    Jon Hanson Registered User
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    Stan,

    I totally agree. It is a shame that he has to take so much garbage thrown at him; if "they" were smart they would give him respect, a job and a fellowship!
     

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