BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

Discussion in 'Horological Books' started by Fortunat Mueller-Maerki, Jan 14, 2009.

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  1. Fortunat Mueller-Maerki

    Fortunat Mueller-Maerki National Library Chair
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    #1 Fortunat Mueller-Maerki, Jan 14, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2009
    Note: This thread has been renamed and moved from 'Sticky' to the regular Threads because it has evloved from a "Link to a Educational Ressource" to a discussion of the merits of the site

    My friend Bob Holmstrom and myself have created in recent years a data repository for bibliographic data on horological publications.

    It is called

    BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI



    [click on the above link to go there]


    It currently contains about 15'000 detailed bibliographical entries on about 10'000 horological books and about 5000 articles from horological publications. Searchable by title words, authors, keywords and publishers.

    At this stage the site is still experimental and not promoted. Our long term goal is to create one place where the content of all horological publications (including periodicals) can be searched for.

    Users of the NAWCC Message board are invited to test the site and send comments to horology@horology.com


    Fortunat



    .
     
  2. kirxklox

    kirxklox Registered User
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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Why do you consider a Search Engine like this to be Educational and Valuable?
     
  3. Fortunat Mueller-Maerki

    Fortunat Mueller-Maerki National Library Chair
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    #3 Fortunat Mueller-Maerki, Jan 14, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2009
    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    I consider tools that help people find information educational


    Fortunat
     
  4. kirxklox

    kirxklox Registered User
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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    How does a Search Engine like this help anyone find Educational Information?

    Does this bibliography provide an Individual Book Synopsis?

    What makes this Search Engine able to be used by the masses or is it only able to be used by one of your level of expertise?
     
  5. Jon Hanson

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    If a newbie doesn't know the subject, title, or authors, this is worthless.
     
  6. kirxklox

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Jon: Not quite worthless. There are two areas that have to be considered.
    1) The amount of content is limited when only a small group is inputting the data.
    2) The Populace that is going to use the system.

    I just got through upgrading the NAWCC Bulletin Search Index to PHP and MySQL.

    Both of these Search Engines have the same problem. They require an extensive KNOWLEDGE about the subject before they can be effectively used.

    I was trying to engage Fortunat into a discussion on how to improve these systems and on how he plans on improving his Bibliography.
     
  7. Tom McIntyre

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    One way that this kind of tool is augmented is with a controlled vocabulary that is mapped onto the available language of the references. This is how the NLM succeeds in retrieving references where none of the words in the search match the keywords or title words.

    It would be interesting to bind some kind of wiki facility to the bibliography with a review for each item and commentary on the reviews. That would not be that difficult to do if we had a wiki set up for that purpose.

    I think the design is pretty nice and the essential characteristic is how complete the bibliography is. How does one measure the completeness of the entries? How many entrieis are currently in the bibliography?
     
  8. harold bain

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    I guess the problem is that if I search for "books on clock repair" I get no hits. But if I know the title of a book on clock repair, I will find it.
     
  9. Jon Hanson

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    As the big O says, "You are mking my point!"

    If authors or titles ARE NOT KNOWN, how does the new collector locate what he wants (in the present form?) Maybe a category would be the quick way out?
     
  10. Ralph

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Harold, I just did a keyword search with an argument of "repair" and it came back with 156 hits.

    Did you use the drop down dialogue to qualify your search?

    Nice tool... kudos to Fortunat and Bob H.

    Ralph
     
  11. Richard Watkins

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Not just "new" but any person. Which is why I created my bibliography. Sadly it has only a tiny fraction of the entries (just over 2000), but some of it is comprehensively indexed by content. Indeed I often refer to it myself to find things I have forgotten or when I can't remember where I read it.

    The problem is that constructing such an index takes an enormous amount of time and it occupies a very large amount of space. Given that a single work may generate many entries, 15,000 would result in a index with maybe 200,000+ entries. But it would be a wonderful thing to have.
     
  12. Tom McIntyre

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Building a fulltext index on something like this is not really possible by hand. It is a very large job to do it semi-automatically as Google has done with its books.

    Even after one has scanned all the documents and done a rough to good OCR capture, you still need to document the articles that were scanned.

    The Bibliography Bob and Fortunat created has the document references, but each of those would require scanning and OCR with the scanned text added as a very large text item to the records. At that point your standard database systems could begin building the full text index automatically. All the modern databases have that as a builtin function.

    The other approach I was thinking of was the language net that selects the best matches from the available keywords using the words that were supplied. In the case of Harold's search it would have thrown away all the words too common to be useful and might, in fact, have been able to improve on Ralph's result.
     
  13. zepernick

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    When I first heard that Fortunat and Bob were working on a bibliography which would pursue the goal of citing all of the world's horological literature, I was gob-smacked. After all, both are quite aware of what it would entail. Indeed, just presenting the idea is a problem.

    For instance, if they had wanted to make a newbies' list of "books and articles" which might be helpful for those who are interested in Black Forest clocks but who do not read German, they would have.

    However, what is presently the most complete bibliography for Black Forest clocks and clockmaking, Bibliographie zur Schwarzwalduhr, by Kahlert, contains 2078 entries in its two volumes, although it only goes from the publishing date of 1698 up to 1996, and does not include matter in, say, Japanese. Or Norwegian. Haven't checked on Latvian. The entries are however cross-referenced by date, author and "area."

    And, while it is certainly e-feasible to either subsume these entries in the BHM or, alternatively, check on the BHM's "completeness" through them, the thought of either scanning the matter cited (even assuming that a Bender would allow his e.g. two-volume, 1300+ page work to be scanned) or providing synopses of even the "books" is, well, a bit much.

    Then too, why would anyone who has access to the material and read it spend hours and hours (years?) providing a synopses of volumes for anonymous individuals who (seemingly) expect someone to have done that for them -- and for free?
     
  14. kirxklox

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Zep: What does Public Education mean to you?
     
  15. zepernick

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    In this case, pointing out that there is a bibliography by Kahlert. Which is BTW cited in the BHM.
     
  16. kirxklox

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Zep: OK, now what is the expected population use of this Bibliograhy? Can it be improved on to allow a greater use? HOW?
     
  17. Richard Watkins

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Let me rephrase my remarks.

    I want to find a book. WHY? That is, what sort of question am I asking?

    First, the fact that I am asking means I do not know the author or title. Second, unless I am a bibliographer what I want to know depends on the CONTENT of the book. Third, I will want a "useful" book.

    The problem with conventional bibliographies is that they CANNOT answer such questions except in trivial and usually unhelpful ways. If my question involves a keyword that appears in a title or a keyword that is a general classification word (like "repair") I will get some vague results, but otherwise I will get nothing. And this problem is aggravated by the fact that a number of books have content that is unrelated to the title or related but unexpected.

    For example, at the moment I am learning about mainspring gauges. Searching BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI produces zero results. The problem is that there are no relevant books or articles with the key words in the title. Searching Google produces lots of hits, but virtually all are unhelpful. However there are 12 hits to 9 books in my bibliography (this has since been increased to 18 hits to 10 books).

    Of course, I might know of a book, in which case the most likely questions are: What is in it? Is it good? Is it at the right level for me? Again we are asking about CONTENT.

    The fact that creating content indexes is extremely difficult compared to traditional bibliographic entries (which are tedious but simple) should not mean we do not not TRY to create them. Indeed, the real problem is that no-one is willing to do it, other than me.
     
  18. kirxklox

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    There are good tools that can do this job easily. The only requirement is that the book needs to be in TXT format or PDF that has been OCR.
     
  19. harold bain

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Thanks, Ralph, that does work.
    Fortunat, just a suggestion. I think this thread should be "unstickyed", and a new sticky put up and locked.
     
  20. kirxklox

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Harold: As a Super Moderator, you should recognize that this Thread does not deserve to be a Stickey. It is a Personal Web Site and when I tried to get Clocks, a Collector's Gallery as a STICKEY, it was turned down cold.

    Oh, well, I do not want to be the one to dash cold water on someones good program. Just trying to understand how to make it better.
     
  21. harold bain

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Sam, whether or not this should be a sticky is up to the administrators. I just don't think we should be having a discussion on a sticky. The discussion should be a normal thread.
    I have no objection to linking to your Clocks, a Collectors Gallery, on the repair sticky for suppliers and info, unless the administration has already turned this down. Lots of the info contained on that sticky is links to personal websites.
     
  22. kirxklox

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Harold: I am not in the Horn Business.

    I like to build Publid Horological Information Sites and try to find out how to make them better. That and try to make Members think about how the NAWCC can improve theirs!
     
  23. harold bain

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Sam, I had a feeling you were more of a Bells and Whistles type of guy.
    Although I have no objection to stickying your website, it's not my call.
     
  24. kirxklox

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Harold: As soon as I get the program rewritten I am going to donate it to the NAWCC. It should make for an interesting addition to the Knowledge Center.
     
  25. Fortunat Mueller-Maerki

    Fortunat Mueller-Maerki National Library Chair
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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    The database in a field called 'coments' (to connote that they contan a subjective element rather than only hard facts) provides for a one sentence or one paragraph synopsis of the contents. In some cases it is quite long in others (mainly earlier entries) it is very brief.

    I consider it the mission of this Message Board/Knowledge Center to offer information/services/tools for users at all levels of sophistication from the newbie to the accomplished horological scholar.

    And yes I am the first one to point out that the current state of the interface to the database is 'experimental' and not particularly user friendly at this stage.


    But one has to first gather (at least a significant part of) the data (although with a vision ion mind how the whole thing might function) before one can think of designing an good interface tool for the public to use and query that data.



    Fortunat



    .
     
  26. Fortunat Mueller-Maerki

    Fortunat Mueller-Maerki National Library Chair
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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Bibliographia Horologiae Mundi currently contains complete records for a little more than 10'000 publications. With Periodicals ech 'Volume' is considered a publication.


    In addition (in the not yet publically accesible part of the database) there are nearly 4000 'Content' Items in the database. A Content item can be anyting that isa 'part' of a 'publication' like an individual article in a magazine, a chapter in a book, an individual piece in an auction catalog, an individual 'paper' in a a volume of 'Proceedings of the Symposium on ...' etc.

    So far the complete contents of two publications (the Horological Science Newsletter of NAWCC Chapter 161, and the Yearbooks of the Deutsche Gesellschaft fuer Chronometrie) have been captured down to the level of individual articles (including author names, title words, but no keywords assigned). On an experimental bases (to get a feeling of the level of work involved and to test the software) we have captured the details of a few exhibition catalogs (e.g. Huygens Legacy) down to the level of each individual pieces exhibited.


    Fortunat
     
  27. kirxklox

    kirxklox Registered User
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    Fortunat: As long as this is just a Search Engine your Audience is only a few Thousand individuals. Publishing the entire Index on the Internet as an Alphabetical List that can be manipulated by Author or Title and making the list divided into Categories where each selection can then be looked at you may have something that the entire World can look at and use.
     
  28. Richard Watkins

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    Re: LINK to BIBLIOGRAPHIA HOROLOGIAE MUNDI, a horological bibliographic databank

    Two comments.

    First, I have just, yet again, discovered the value of such an index. While writing about mainspring gauges I needed to find out something about watch crystal gauges. My bibliography came up with a totally unexpected reference: Mercer "The Frodshams". I had read and indexed this book many years ago and had no memory of it containing anything about gauges. But in it there is a good explanation of the different crystal gauges and a long table of comparative sizes. I would never have thought of looking in such a book for this information.

    Second, from personal experience, the time to scan, OCR and CORRECT the text is often more than it takes to read a book. Also, it is a thankless task when the book is under copyright and the resultant text cannot be published. Although this method is, in principle, good, I very much doubt if it is practical.

    The real problem with indexing is it it a very tedious task no matter how it is done and it is obvious that no-one (other than me) is willing to spend any time on it.

    It is quite easy, even if time consuming, to create a simple bibliography, like Tardy or BHM, as such entries can be generated quickly even by one person; that basic information for my bibliography only took a minute or two per entry. But it is not useful. Such bibliographies can never enable someone to find a relevant book except in the case of the most general, and least useful, enquiries such as "repair" or "Longines".

    The person who needs to discover something more specific has no choice but go to a library and spend maybe hours examining one book after another in the hope of finding relevant information; a process with is not only difficult but prone to failure as it is very easy to miss something when quickly scanning through pages.

    The real problem is lack of interest or, should I say, laziness. If ten people read a book (which only takes a few days) and index it, there will be ten more sources of detailed information. At, say, forty books a year there could be 400. Coupled with my bibliography (which would require some work) and placed on the internet it would not take long to get the most important watch books indexed. (Journals would be another matter. They suffer from the same problem in that information sometimes appears under unrelated titles. But at least some journals are already indexed.)

    But it won't happen.
     
  29. Tom McIntyre

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    Richard,

    The OCR technique used by Google books does not rely on any correction of the content. The entire text of a page or article is passed through a "good" OCR engine and made into a large text object in their database. The database has a low level indexing capability for full text indexes. The result is an index with many garbage words, but, generally, all the key words that might be useful as well. When you do a multi word keyword search it returns links to all page "images" that contain those key words. No human labor is involved in the indexing, it is all automatic.

    The key concept that underlies this is that important key words tend to be repeated. The chances of at least one instance of the keyword being readable by the ocr machine is much better than 99.9%.

    This process is not suitable for copyighted material, of course.

    Google also makes the ocr output available so that a scholar wanting to have a corrected copy of the text can create one. Unless one wants to quote snippets of the article that is not usually worth the effort.
     
  30. kirxklox

    kirxklox Registered User
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    Making an Index of a Copyrighted Book is not violating the Copyright.
     
  31. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    The Google full text index is a republication of the material. It would be a violation to do that with copyrighted material. The entire contents are made available by the process in readable form because of the scanning. Without the scanning, there is nothing to return from a search hit.
     
  32. kirxklox

    kirxklox Registered User
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    Yes, but there are Indexes without the publication being available.
     
  33. Bill Ward

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    I'm not sure but that including a portion of the copyrighted text with the search or index results wouldn't be covered under the "fair use" exception to the copyright, especially if the agency performing this service were an educational, non-profit institution (like the NAWCC). And I can't see why a copyright holder would rationally object to a minor use that tells the user "Get This Book!"
    Of course, I've been ranting for years that these projects really should be under the purview of the Library of Congress, which is charged with administering copyright. The LOC should simply require all materials in copyright to be submitted in machine readable format (thus obviating the OCR problem- almost all material is currently typeset from a machine readable format anyway) and find a way of making them available, for a small fee, online, which satisfies the publishers and authors. Otherwise, publishers may find themselves in the position of the music recording industry- made redundant by technology due to their own inability to preempt it.
    In the meantime, a union catalog of periodical articles to-date would be of immense use to researchers, and could be produced relatively easily by merging OCRed end-of-year magazine indices. Almost as easy would be doing much the same with book table-of-contents or indices.
     
  34. Tom McIntyre

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    Guys, I don't think there is currently a useful method to automatically generate an index other than by scanning and OCR.

    Since the tags are at the page or article level it is necessary that the entire document be in the database.

    Google does not index copyrighted books.

    It would not be impossible to hide the retrieval results and only give the full book reference for any search. That would avoid violation of copyright. I don't think anyone has contemplated that and I don't think it would be all that useful, but I could be wrong.

    You need to have a large volume of text to make the OCR errors insignificant by the existence of repeated keywords. The keywords may not have any reasonable proximity even if they are in fact a phrase. i.e. if the phrase is repeated 5 times in the document, each word might only survive once in the 5 phrases.

    This is a really great technique for material that has no copyright. If you own the copyright, you can do a much better job working with the original sources in this electronic age and you don't need the OCR step.
     
  35. kirxklox

    kirxklox Registered User
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    OCR documents are between 95-97% accurate. Flat scans are even better. Instead of a Book an Hour it may take a Week or two.
     

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