better grade 6 size or other ladies mvts

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Greg Frauenhoff, Feb 17, 2011.

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  1. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    There are some nice looking smaller ladies size mvts out there and I thought it might be fun to start a thread showing just what some of these beauties look like. So to start here is an early (1st run as I recall) high grade Elgin: 84559.jpg

    84559.jpg
     
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  2. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Here's a 6 size Aurora. Aurora made about 7500 6s mvts but very few have two-tone finishes. Only 4 such are known and all fall into a run of 10. Of course, it would be neat to see another. 84598.jpg

    84598.jpg
     
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  3. artbissell

    artbissell Registered User
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    Lady 6 size watches I have a few of for their mc gold cases are uncommonly with decorated or high grade movements in my experience. Read somewhere Hampden made a few solid gold movements in 1891. A Waltham here that looks like a high grade version of a very common movement in a fancy mc case. Know nothing about it. Have seen hundreds but never a 2 tone like the Aurora. 84640.jpg 67928.jpg
     
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  4. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    #4 Kent, Feb 18, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2011
    This recent thread shows a 6-size Seth Thomas ladies watch having "fancy gilt and nickel damaskeening." (scroll down in it for pictures).
     
  5. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Kent,

    Thanks for the link. Neat Seth Thomas.

    Just so there's no confusion, my comment about 4 known (above) refers specifically to 6s Aurora mvts. There are, of course, other makes that made two-tone mvts as well.

    Greg
     
  6. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Sticking with the 6-size theme, here is a 16-jewel two-tone "New Columbus Watch Co." movement. 84694.jpg
     
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  7. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    These two Waltham's are 8-size, but filled the same market as the 6-size. The private-label movement is an 1873 model and the other is an 1889 model. Both are "Amn Watch Co." grade movements. 84695.jpg 84696.jpg
     
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  8. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    This has tempted me to review my 6 sizes, and I'm disappointed to find that three of them (two Elgins from 1888 and 1891 and a Waltham 1889) have the most boring looking plain gilt movements. But this Waltham 1889 does at least have damascening (although nothing as extravagant as the others in this thread) as well as a super mc case :)

    I've just noticed the nice star round the screw on the right. Does that denote anything, or is it just decoration? 84715.jpg
     
  9. artbissell

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    As you may suspect. Merely an indicator for stem removal screw.
     
  10. richiec

    richiec Registered User
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    Here are a couple of P.S. Bartlett, 0 size 1907 16 jewel gold flashed movements. One still has the paper that came with the Essex case. 84717.jpg 84718.jpg 84719.jpg 84720.jpg 84721.jpg 84722.jpg 84723.jpg 84724.jpg
     
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  11. artbissell

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    My favorite little lady Elgin. Miniature 0 size o.f. adjusted copy of of best decorated Veritas 18 size r.r. complete with diamond. Has bold r.r. dial as well. Maybe r.r. accuracy as well? 84725.jpg
     
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  12. DennyI

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    Here's an 0 size ladies South Bend. Serial # 736608.

    I think it has similar damaskeening to a grade 227 16 size.

    Denny I. 84742.jpg 84743.jpg 84744.jpg
     
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  13. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    A high grade low production 6s Illinois: 84849.jpg
     
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  14. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Lovely, Greg. Those early 3/4-plate Illinois always look so solidly made, even in the small sizes.
     
  15. Nick23

    Nick23 Registered User

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    This is the only 6 size in my small collection. A Riverside grade, 17 jewel, adjusted in a 10K gold demi-hunter case. 85113.jpg 85114.jpg
     
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  16. rrpktwatcher

    rrpktwatcher Registered User
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    Shiner, is that a seconds bit that I see peeking through the crystal beneath the V,VI,VII? ;) If so, could you provide a photo of the dial, please?

    Thanks!
     
  17. Nick23

    Nick23 Registered User

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    rrpktwatcher, This is the photo of the dial of my 6 size Riverside. I've also included a photo of the back of the case. 85122.jpg 85123.jpg
     
  18. artbissell

    artbissell Registered User
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    The 18s 23j and a 19J 0s Elgin show how good my record photo titling is. Here is the proper 0s Elgin. 68680.jpg
     
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  19. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    Marty,

    In regard to the star around the screw on your watch-

    As I recall, these had a special, and somewhat unconventional two piece stem arrangement. I'd have to check back through my references and my movements(I don't have a complete one of this model, but I have several partials) but as I recall one was instructed to insert a screwdriver into the hole in the middle of the star, and then unscrew the stem.

    EDIT:

    I see that there's a screw in the middle of the star, so please disregard all of the above
     
  20. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Thanks Ben, but Art already kindly explained to me that the star marks the stem detent screw ... so actually it's the same principle as the star you're describing.
     
  21. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Marty & Ben - regarding the star on the Waltham movement, I don't think it correct to refer to the screw as detent screw. In this thread -- https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=36461 -- I described the similar arrangement on a 14-size movement. I believe (but haven't checked) that the screw on the smaller movement serves the same purpose as a screwdriver or rod would on the 14-size, that is, it locks the lower part of the stem so that the stem may be unscrewed.
     
  22. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    Thanks, Jerry.

    When I made my original post, I had the 14 size in mind. I didn't think it was a straight-forward detent, but couldn't remember the exact arrangement
     
  23. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    I confess that I never understood why one would call such an arrangement a "detent screw" but I've seen it called that quite often. I had understood that any offset pinion used to lock the stem was given this name :confused:

    It's great to see the workings of this arrangement, Jerry, but in your picture I can't work out how the "setting lever" disengages from the stem. Does turning the screw pull the whole lever to the left?
     
  24. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    To keep the string going, here are some more interesting ladies movements, mainly Swiss, as follows:

    1. IWC Stauffer Peerless PL, Caliber 63 La Pousette 12.5 ligne movement
    2. Tiffany, case diameter 35mm
    3. Cartier, probably by LeCoultre, case diameter 24mm
    4. L. Leroy, probably by LeCoultre, case diameter 30mm
    5. Audemars Piguet (modern), pocket watch but movement likely a caliber 2003 WW movement
    6. Patek Philippe, case diameter 41mm
    7. Waltham Riverside Maximus 0-size Model 1900
    8. C.H. Meylan Bailey Banks & Biddle PL 0-size
    9. Touchon Tiffany PL case diameter 26mm 85209.jpg 85210.jpg 85211.jpg 85212.jpg 85213.jpg 85214.jpg 85215.jpg 85216.jpg 85217.jpg
     
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  25. artbissell

    artbissell Registered User
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    Interesting to see the variety of precision Swiss made lady watch sizes that American producers did few of like the 0s Maximus and 19j 0s Elgin.
    Gruen sold a couple Swiss made good ones. Started with a Madretsch adjusted Grossmann escapement, and then with a Le Locle sourced one similar to their Dietrich Gruens. (Bogoff photo) Both are rare. Seen one Mad. and 3 of the others. 71912.jpg 73256.jpg
     
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  26. artbissell

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    #26 artbissell, Feb 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2018
    If the Lipsig Leroy is a Le Coultre we have probablely identified the Le Locle source for the Dietrich Gruens. We know a DG&S minute repeater was by Le Coultre, but I have not been certain other movements were.
    85212.jpg 71912.jpg
     
  27. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    I hate to derail a general discussion of these watches with details, but that is what I get when I answer a question without benefit of my resources at home. My prior answer above is incorrect with respect to the star with a screw in it -- that mechanism is later and different from the hole in the star on both 6-size and 14-size movements. Those earlier movements have a form of positive setting (with a two-piece stem) where the rest position of the mechanism is in winding mode. Slightly later 6-size 1889 model movements have a negative setting mechanism where a one-piece stem will be part of the case. The screw in the star appears to be a "shop screw" to retain the mechanism in the winding position when the movement is out of the case. It must be engaged (screwed in) before the movement is removed and while the stem is still pushed in for winding. [I was out of town and didn't have a chance to disassemble a couple of movements until tonight].
     
  28. DennyI

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    Waltham private label, I think 0 size, 7 jewels grade 60, and listed as Ass't. Spec. in Ehrhardt's Waltham Pocket Watch Identification and Price Guide. 85429.jpg 85430.jpg
     
  29. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Here is a nifty little Elgin 6-size from around 1896. It is a 16-jewel grade 168. I like the gold center and third wheels and the gilded regulator index plate on this one, as well as the gilded engraving in the nickel plates. View attachment 449736
     
  30. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Jerry,

    Neat little Elgin. Thanks for the pic.

    Greg
     
  31. artbissell

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    #31 artbissell, Aug 26, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
    Really not too difficult to confuse the 2 that are my favorite pair of Elgins. Both have RR dials and diamond caps.

    138487.jpg 68680.jpg


    Waltham I believe did the best and most durable gold flashed movements.

    107747.jpg
     
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  32. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Art,

    Super little timekeepers.

    Greg
     
  33. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Referring back to post #6, I recently found two more of the 16-jewel 6-size Columbus movements. The earlier one is marked "Columbus Watch Co." and has a lovely "twiggy" dial (don't know what they are really called). The later one is after the name change and is marked "New Columbus Watch Co." with what may be a private-label dial marked "Lady Grange". It is delightful to find double-sunk dials like these on small watches. And, do I detect platinum meantime screws?

    283816.jpg 283817.jpg 283818.jpg 283819.jpg
     
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  34. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    #34 pmwas, Oct 22, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    Talking about better grade 6 sizes...
    The thread began with Elgin 71, here's the next model's top grade - 176

    xyzzytom_235189

    Lovely as the 71, and even more it has lovely finished train wheel as well...
    Sorry, the picture is not top notch...
     
  35. darrahg

    darrahg Moderator
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    Rockford had a couple. Here are 6s model 1 and 2.
    284339.jpg 284340.jpg
     
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  36. Tom McIntyre

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    Here are some bad old pictures of my 6 size Elgins. If you put your cursor over the thumbnail, it will show the grade number.

    284345.jpg 215251.jpg 215254.jpg 215255.jpg
     
  37. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    This old ladies Marion is considered "rare". Also, it has screwed down jewel settings whereas another such example (#263172) does not.

    img219.jpg
     
  38. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Very nice Greg

    I think that the 6 size may be the most under appreciated size. Many
    of the watch companies didn't' even make a 21 jewel 6 size.
    I have really come to appreciate this size.


    Rob
     

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