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Best way to repair this arbor?

Willys_1

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Hello All,

I have a broken gathering pallet wheel arbor from a no-name English time and strike mantle clock. I'm debating the best method to repair the arbor. The pinion and arbor are one piece, so making a new arbor would not be an easy task. The arbor at the break measures 1.3mm, so drilling out the 2 halves and inserting a pin is doable, but challenging. I'm concerned that a pin that small might not be strong enough and may flex under load. Option two is to make a sleeve, and insert both halves of the arbor into the sleeve. This would be simple, but would be more noticeable than a pin. Are there other options or should I go with one of the two mentioned above?

IMG_0183.jpg IMG_0184.jpg
 

David S

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As far as I am concerned I would sleeve it in a heart beat. Making sure that there were no other levers or what ever that may be close to the arbor and interfere.

David
 

R. Croswell

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Looks like it snapped off where it goes through the plate. I don't see how sleeving what you have can work because the sleeve would be in the pivot hole and no shoulder to limit end shake. I see two options. 1) cut off the nub and drill (in a lathe) the arbor and install a new pivot, which likely will require annealing that arbor, or, 2) cut off perhaps 3/16" of the arbor and make a sleeve to slip over the arbor all the way to the gear, then turn a new pivot on the solid end of the sleeve.

RC
 

shutterbug

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If you don't have a lathe to re-pivot it, farm it out to a local repairman or machine shop. Easy job.
 

Willys_1

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Its not a broken pivot. It's the arbor itself that is broken. In the first picture you can see a stub of the arbor (approx 3/8") sticking out from the gathering pallet.

RC, You are correct that it broke where it goes through the plate. I like your second suggestion. I'll make a sleeve that runs all the way to the gear, turn a new pivot with a shoulder to limit the end shake on the other end, and long enough to attach the gathering pallet on the other side of the plate.
 

David S

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Good observation RC. The sleeve would work if one made a larger bushing hole, but that may be too intrusive.

David
 

harold bain

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If it is between the plates, it is an arbor. Outside of the plates it is a pivot, albeit a large one due to its purpose. How did you manage to break it?
 

dAz57

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Does this strike system lock on the gathering pallet itself or on a pin on the next wheel up?, If it locks on the gathering pallet then you want to make sure the sleeve and arbor are well attached.

I would shorten the arbor a little, make a sleeve, make the new pivot a bit larger than the turned down section that holds the gathering pallet, or just make the pivot the same as original, but shorten the arbor just below the old pivot so the sleeve will have strength between the hole drilled out and turned down section,

Use a high strength loctite like 263 to hold the parts together.
 

Willys_1

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Hello Harold, the break is just inside the plate. Not sure how it was broken, I received it that way. I'm imagining huge gorilla fingers and blunt force trauma.

Hello dAz57, there is a locking pin on the next wheel up. I'm going to make the sleeve reach all the way down the arbor to the wheel, and then machine a new arbor on the other end of the sleeve.
 

dAz57

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That's good, then it doesn't have the twisting force applied to the gathering pallet when the train is blocked, which has to make you wonder how it got broken, a gorilla sounds about right:excited:
 

Jerry Kieffer

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Hello All,

I have a broken gathering pallet wheel arbor from a no-name English time and strike mantle clock. I'm debating the best method to repair the arbor. The pinion and arbor are one piece, so making a new arbor would not be an easy task. The arbor at the break measures 1.3mm, so drilling out the 2 halves and inserting a pin is doable, but challenging. I'm concerned that a pin that small might not be strong enough and may flex under load. Option two is to make a sleeve, and insert both halves of the arbor into the sleeve. This would be simple, but would be more noticeable than a pin. Are there other options or should I go with one of the two mentioned above?

287993.jpg 287994.jpg
Willy
There are many ways to repair most Horological parts.

For myself personally, the value of the part or movement or instrument plays no part in how a part will be repaired. What is important to myself, is how the repair will be explained to others by the customer if it is for a customer. If its for myself, the same invisible repair is made to continually perfect procedures and or retain or increase value.

In this specific case, you are correct in that pinning the two halfs together would produce a sub standard repair lacking strength. Cutting the arbor back and fitting a sleeve with a pivot on it would produce a perfectly functional repair of equal or possibly greater strength to the original assuming work to a quality standard. However as you mentioned, it would be visible and may or may not be exceptable to a customer or yourself.

If I were personally doing this repair, I would use one of two methods both invisible repairs..

First, if warranted because of the extra work, I would machine a new Arbor/pinion.

Second, depending on close inspection and the quality of the arbor itself, I would repivot it per the attached photo if clearances permitted. The Arbor would be drilled for the full size pivot just past the wheel with a second smaller hole into the pinion area per the dotted lines in the sketch. Original size pivot stock would be selected or machined to fill the dotted line hole and friction fitted to fill both large and small holes. Strength should equal the original requiring less work than a sleeve while being invisible. Again, If I were doing this personally for a customer, they would be given a cost on both methods before the work was performed.

Jerry Kieffer
 

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R. Croswell

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Willy
There are many ways to repair most Horological parts.

For myself personally, the value of the part or movement or instrument plays no part in how a part will be repaired. What is important to myself, is how the repair will be explained to others by the customer if it is for a customer. If its for myself, the same invisible repair is made to continually perfect procedures and or retain or increase value.

In this specific case, you are correct in that pinning the two halfs together would produce a sub standard repair lacking strength. Cutting the arbor back and fitting a sleeve with a pivot on it would produce a perfectly functional repair of equal or possibly greater strength to the original assuming work to a quality standard. However as you mentioned, it would be visible and may or may not be exceptable to a customer or yourself.

If I were personally doing this repair, I would use one of two methods both invisible repairs..

First, if warranted because of the extra work, I would machine a new Arbor/pinion.

Second, depending on close inspection and the quality of the arbor itself, I would repivot it per the attached photo if clearances permitted. The Arbor would be drilled for the full size pivot just past the wheel with a second smaller hole into the pinion area per the dotted lines in the sketch. Original size pivot stock would be selected or machined to fill the dotted line hole and friction fitted to fill both large and small holes. Strength should equal the original requiring less work than a sleeve while being invisible. Again, If I were doing this personally for a customer, they would be given a cost on both methods before the work was performed.

Jerry Kieffer
Jerry, the issue I see with the repivoting method you describe is that, from the looks of the break, I believe the arbor (and the pinion) are likely hardened. If so, not only would the arbor need to be annealed, but the wheel would need to be unmounted and the pinion annealed to accommodate the smaller step hole. At least the pinion would require hardening and tempering after the job and not knowing the alloy and unless one has a precision furnace success would by no means be ensured. Drilling a full pivot diameter hole that deep will be challenging and if a carbid drill is used to avoid annealing the pinion there is an increased risk the drill will snap rendering the part useless. I do believe that repivoting is one viable option and if the hole in the arbor stops a bit short of the wheel it should achieve adequate strength without weakening the wheel-arbor interface and avoiding the need to anneal and drill into the pinion. Unless one possesses your level of precision machining skill and experience, I believe one would be more likely to achieve an acceptable repair using the sleeving method. If, as suggested in post #4, the sleeve extends all the way to the wheel it will, while not invisible, be very inconspicuous. The run out precision of the hole in the sleeve is less important because the pivot would be turned after the sleeve is in place. The sleeving method requires fewer steps to execute and avoids the issue of annealing and tempering the pinion and the risk of leaving a broken drill in the part.

As we both acknowledge there is usually more than one way to accomplish the task. The important thing is one's objective and whether that be an invisible repair, one that can be accomplished quickly, one that allows a profit margin for a commercial shop, and what can be reasonable accomplished using one's available tools and skill levels. Thanks for showing us your method. We now have three options 'on the table'.

RC
 

R&A

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If you have the clearance the sleeve could be pressed on all the way to the top of the gear. And then cut the pivot to fit the gathering pallet. Because you have the strength of the existing arbor. The wall thickness of the sleeve would not have to be that thick. I would try .020 thick. Making the sleeve to .040 over the thickness of the arbor you have. < This is only if you have clearance, so the new sleeve doesn't interfere with other parts or the mechanism. You may have to trim some of the leaf pinion, so the sleeve is flush. This will make it less noticeable. Plus it would be very rigid and this is what you would need,because of it's application. This is how I would do this.
 
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shutterbug

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Personally, I think a standard re-pivoting technique would work. Jerry's repair would certainly be strong, but I don't see a lot of strength needed for a gathering pallet. I would do similar to his drawing, but not nearly as deep into the arbor. Then put it the new pivot (albeit a long one) in, in the usual way. If necessary, the part inserted into the arbor could be narrower than the part sticking out. It's hard to see how much of the arbor is taken up by the pivot size, but you don't want to drill a hole big enough to compromise the strength of the walls. I'm thinking the arbor is not hardened.
 

Jerry Kieffer

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Jerry, the issue I see with the repivoting method you describe is that, from the looks of the break, I believe the arbor (and the pinion) are likely hardened. If so, not only would the arbor need to be annealed, but the wheel would need to be unmounted and the pinion annealed to accommodate the smaller step hole. At least the pinion would require hardening and tempering after the job and not knowing the alloy and unless one has a precision furnace success would by no means be ensured. Drilling a full pivot diameter hole that deep will be challenging and if a carbid drill is used to avoid annealing the pinion there is an increased risk the drill will snap rendering the part useless. I do believe that repivoting is one viable option and if the hole in the arbor stops a bit short of the wheel it should achieve adequate strength without weakening the wheel-arbor interface and avoiding the need to anneal and drill into the pinion. Unless one possesses your level of precision machining skill and experience, I believe one would be more likely to achieve an acceptable repair using the sleeving method. If, as suggested in post #4, the sleeve extends all the way to the wheel it will, while not invisible, be very inconspicuous. The run out precision of the hole in the sleeve is less important because the pivot would be turned after the sleeve is in place. The sleeving method requires fewer steps to execute and avoids the issue of annealing and tempering the pinion and the risk of leaving a broken drill in the part.

As we both acknowledge there is usually more than one way to accomplish the task. The important thing is one's objective and whether that be an invisible repair, one that can be accomplished quickly, one that allows a profit margin for a commercial shop, and what can be reasonable accomplished using one's available tools and skill levels. Thanks for showing us your method. We now have three options 'on the table'.

RC
RC
When reading the OP`s question he appeared to rightfully understand that the sleeve method was a functional repair, but I suspected deep down he was not going to be happy with the appearance based on his comments, thus my response.

Since the OP did not ask for procedure repair details but options, I only offered my preferred personal options.

I can understand ones perceptions on the difficulties of drilling and skill levels, but in most cases they are unfounded. High degrees of skill are only involved with procedures that require it. In this case, deep drilling success depends on the ability of the Lathe to hold the arbor so it runs true and control the tooling designed for the job per tooling manufacturing recommendations . If done manually, then the only skill involved is not to turn a hand wheel faster than the feed rate specified by the tooling manufacturer.

In this specific case, as mentioned, I would need to personally inspect the arbor to make sure the drilling method was practical. If so, it could be drilled hard or annealed without issue.

Drilling hard
This is done daily in industry without issue. First the arbor must run true in the lathe and be accurately spot drilled. Next, you must use the proper drill such as a carbide "Die" or "Gun Drill" designed to drill deep holes without breaking when used within manufacturer specifications such as proper feed rates and leadscrew control. An example of such a drill can be seen in the first Photo.

Drilling Annealed

Annealing an arbor section is quick and easy utilizing an annealing fixture. My personal example that was simple to make can be seen in the second photo.
I simply heat the leg and finally heat the arbor red hot. The preheated copper leg slowly cools the arbor. The leg is heated and then the arbor is set in place where a small
O/A torch is immediately used to bring the arbor up to red hot. Depending on size of the arbor, an orifice of less than .020" is generally used requiring about 2-3 seconds of 5200 degree heat to heat the arbor red hot or annealing temp. and left to slowly cool. Because of the short heating time and small and controlled placement of the flame, the wheel remains cool to the touch throughout the process with no removal required. The small hole is a added measure of strength not required but easily drilled with carbide if the pinion is hard. If the drill breaks because of poor procedure, simply skip it. In this specific case the pinion is unlikely hard because wheel mounting appears to be from stamping or peening. In both cases with the arbor hard or soft, I would friction fit a section of Gage pin or drill shank of exact desired size in the hole. If the arbor was annealed it would not be rehardened since the combination of hard and soft materials would add a working toughness that should equal or exceed original.

Again personally, if the arbor were hard and to be repaired, I would anneal and drill with HSS since it would require less time to make the repair.

Jerry Kieffer
 

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Jerry Kieffer

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Personally, I think a standard re-pivoting technique would work. Jerry's repair would certainly be strong, but I don't see a lot of strength needed for a gathering pallet. I would do similar to his drawing, but not nearly as deep into the arbor. Then put it the new pivot (albeit a long one) in, in the usual way. If necessary, the part inserted into the arbor could be narrower than the part sticking out. It's hard to see how much of the arbor is taken up by the pivot size, but you don't want to drill a hole big enough to compromise the strength of the walls. I'm thinking the arbor is not hardened.
Shutterbug
The deep hole was suggested not knowing the wall thickness of the Arbor when inserting pivot size material also per your concern. By going back to the wheel and including a small section in the pinion, both the arbor wall and the pivot material contribute to the strength of the repair. The additional drilling once setup only adds a couple of minutes.

Jerry Kieffer
 

R&A

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Personally, I think a standard re-pivoting technique would work. Jerry's repair would certainly be strong, but I don't see a lot of strength needed for a gathering pallet. I would do similar to his drawing, but not nearly as deep into the arbor. Then put it the new pivot (albeit a long one) in, in the usual way. If necessary, the part inserted into the arbor could be narrower than the part sticking out. It's hard to see how much of the arbor is taken up by the pivot size, but you don't want to drill a hole big enough to compromise the strength of the walls. I'm thinking the arbor is not hardened.
If it locks out on the pallet. It will have to be very strong and rigid. He'll have to give it a try and see what works out best.
 

R. Croswell

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If it locks out on the pallet. It will have to be very strong and rigid. He'll have to give it a try and see what works out best.
It would be interesting to know how this part got broken and whether the arbor and pivot are hardened at that point. I would speculate that the original part was adequate by design and was broken by someone attempting to remove the gathering pallet. Therefore a repair of equal strength should be adequate. The concern here as I see it is that the diameter of the broken pivot is large relative to the diameter of the arbor. Drilling the arbor for a pivot of this size will leave a very thin-wall arbor. Jerry's suggested method maintains strength of the finished arbor by drilling deeply into where there is 'more meat', but while this might be an easy task for some it could be tricky and you only get one chance. Of course if the drill snaps off deep in the arbor one could still sleeve it. Most of the strength is in the outer diameter of the arbor so if this movement does NOT lock on the gathering pallet simply drilling the arbor and treating this like any other pivot replacement (post #15 and '1' in post #4) should be adequate. If it does lock on the gathering pallet then one night want to drill deeper or perhaps cross pin and/or use a retaining compound. Always good to have options. One suggestion, if this is your first attempt at this repair (or many other repairs) I suggest you locate a similar scrap part and see if you can successfully execute the method of choice.

RC
 

Michael-BTD

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Hello,

If your looking for a definitive answer here it is, replace the pinion/arbor.

Judging by the gathering pallet it appears that it is also the locking point for the strike train. Repivoting an extended pivot like this never works out in the long run. As for sleeving, this is just a lazy, short term option.

I also suggest inspecting the governor to make sure that it is functioning correctly. If the governor isnt absorbing enough power it could lead to damage to this bearing, such as cracks or just increased wear. I've seen this more often in english longcase clocks.

Long story short, cut a new pinion, turn up the arbor, fit the wheel and your all done.

Hope this helps.

Michael.
 

R&A

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I guess if you have the tooling and a gear cutter this would be the best option. I would like to see your equipment. Or would you send it out.
 

shimmystep

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Hello,

If your looking for a definitive answer here it is, replace the pinion/arbor.

Judging by the gathering pallet it appears that it is also the locking point for the strike train. Repivoting an extended pivot like this never works out in the long run. As for sleeving, this is just a lazy, short term option.

I also suggest inspecting the governor to make sure that it is functioning correctly. If the governor isnt absorbing enough power it could lead to damage to this bearing, such as cracks or just increased wear. I've seen this more often in english longcase clocks.

Long story short, cut a new pinion, turn up the arbor, fit the wheel and your all done.
I would disagree that 'it never works out in the long run'. The suggestions to sleeve over the old arbour would be a permanent, not short term, and a functional fix; visible, yes, but not untidy. There is not a lot of force taken on the stop/GP cam.
I think people have to take into account what tooling they have, budget to fix it etc and do the best they can with that. I don't think that is "lazy".
 

R. Croswell

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Hello,

If your looking for a definitive answer here it is, replace the pinion/arbor.

Judging by the gathering pallet it appears that it is also the locking point for the strike train. Repivoting an extended pivot like this never works out in the long run. As for sleeving, this is just a lazy, short term option.

I also suggest inspecting the governor to make sure that it is functioning correctly. If the governor isnt absorbing enough power it could lead to damage to this bearing, such as cracks or just increased wear. I've seen this more often in english longcase clocks.

Long story short, cut a new pinion, turn up the arbor, fit the wheel and your all done.

Hope this helps.

Michael.
That is one more option but I have to disagree that it is 'definitive'. Unless one has a pinion cutting setup, it would be the most expensive approach and would sacrifice a perfectly good original part (the pinion). The method you describe as definitive is probably the laziest method of all - just send it out with a check and install the new part.

While each of the methods previously suggested has its has its own pros and cons, I believe either, when properly executed has the potential to achieve a long-term durable repair. You make a good point to check the governor. That's a fairly stout pivot that broke and we cannot know for sure why. My guess is someone broke it attempting to remove the pallet.

RC
 

BLKBEARD

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Jerry.......... Thank you for sharing the info on your annealing jig, and the Die Drills/ Gun Drills/Strait Flute Drills.

I'm a bit of a "Tool Whore" and now I've got to have a set of those drill bits. A lifetime of mechanical repairs has taught me well that proper tooling & methods can take any job from a nightmare to a comfortable task.

My wife asked yesterday what I want for Christmas, now I have an answer..........A set of these drills.

I've been on the lookout for Screw Machine Length Bits due to my concerns about snapping small diameter Jobber length Bits. These seems like an even better answer

Thanks Again...................Mike
 

David S

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I am not in the "agree or disagree" camp, but rather what I think is my personal preference. I try to preserve as much of the original as possible, regardless of age or value. First the repair must be 100% functional, next reliable / robust. I don't think the repair has to be invisible. Something original has worn our / broken...it is no longer original. I believe that repairs of old clocks are part of its legacy. And to try and camouflage a repair is some how deceitful. In this case even if I had the equipment and skills I would not make a new arbour & pinion. For me that is too much of the original being destroyed.

Now having said this, I always discuss with my customer first. I let them know my preference, and why, and then give them alternatives. Unless their request is something that I am not capable of, I will follow their wishes to the best of my abilities.

And as for RC's observations, I am wondering if the original pallet was broken when someone tried to pry it off with a screw driver or similar.

David
 

Jerry Kieffer

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Jerry.......... Thank you for sharing the info on your annealing jig, and the Die Drills/ Gun Drills/Strait Flute Drills.

I'm a bit of a "Tool Whore" and now I've got to have a set of those drill bits. A lifetime of mechanical repairs has taught me well that proper tooling & methods can take any job from a nightmare to a comfortable task.

My wife asked yesterday what I want for Christmas, now I have an answer..........A set of these drills.

I've been on the lookout for Screw Machine Length Bits due to my concerns about snapping small diameter Jobber length Bits. These seems like an even better answer

Thanks Again...................Mike
Mike
Your welcome.

While these drills require more frequent clearing of the chips, they are a joy to use for difficult drilling and must be used to be understood. Micro sizes can be difficult to find at times, but you can be successful if you are persistent. An example of a .008" can be seen in the attached Photo.

Thanks again
Jerry Kieffer
 

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Jerry Kieffer

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I am not in the "agree or disagree" camp, but rather what I think is my personal preference. I try to preserve as much of the original as possible, regardless of age or value. First the repair must be 100% functional, next reliable / robust. I don't think the repair has to be invisible. Something original has worn our / broken...it is no longer original. I believe that repairs of old clocks are part of its legacy. And to try and camouflage a repair is some how deceitful. In this case even if I had the equipment and skills I would not make a new arbour & pinion. For me that is too much of the original being destroyed.

Now having said this, I always discuss with my customer first. I let them know my preference, and why, and then give them alternatives. Unless their request is something that I am not capable of, I will follow their wishes to the best of my abilities.

And as for RC's observations, I am wondering if the original pallet was broken when someone tried to pry it off with a screw driver or similar.

David
David

You are correct in that personal preferences are neither right or wrong but simply a personal preference.

However, I have been attending NAWCC Regionals and National shows since about 1972. During this this time I can truthfully say that I have never met a person who had any desire to own a item with a visible repair. I will have to admit that the creative ways people have attempted to cover up repairs has been an entertaining discussion over many after show dinners.

High quality work is in great demand with the most common examples being priceless pieces of art some Horological. In these cases, a highly skilled person provides restoration services when and where desirable, that allows everyone to enjoy the original beauty and understanding of a particular object or instrument or whatever.

Again, a personal preference, but a very common one.

Jerry Kieffer
 

AJSBSA

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I can not believe we are talking about a ubiquitous mass produced mantle clock this way, charging the customer three or more times the value of clock when a simple and robust repair is perfectly practicable will just get the clock put into landfill how is that good for anybody.
 

R. Croswell

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.............I try to preserve as much of the original as possible, regardless of age or value. First the repair must be 100% functional, next reliable / robust. I don't think the repair has to be invisible. Something original has worn our / broken...it is no longer original. I believe that repairs of old clocks are part of its legacy. And to try and camouflage a repair is some how deceitful.........
David
I mostly agree with what you say but I believe there is a difference between trying to 'camouflage a repair' to be deceitful and attempting replicate the original part as nearly as possible. If the repair is invisible or nearly so that's great IF it is, as you said 100% functional and reliable. I'm not sure where the line of acceptable appearance should be drawn in each case but a tour through the "Hall of Shame" thread shows many 'repairs' that have crossed that line.

A few months ago I had a clock in for repair and after disassembly and inspecting I notice a noticed a pivot that that was very rough so put the arbor in the lathe to take a light cut on the pivot to clean it up. Then something seemed wrong, it wasn't turning smoothly then all of a sudden the dang pivot fell out! Someone's previous 'invisible' repair failed. Not drilled deep enough, not drilled true, and tapered excessively (probably by hand). I agree that durable and functional come first. Fine if the repair can be nearly invisible and durable.

RC
 

David S

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Like I tried to say I am just stating my personal work standards. I explain how I would approach a repair with my customers and why. I work on most any type, and don't mind cuckoos or Asian movements.

This is a hobby for me. I enjoying challenges and making things in the shop. I don't charge for my time. I do charge for shop supplies and something to cover future cutter replacements etc. The customer has a choice: would you like me to repivot the Hermle and all that entailed for $125, or would you like to have the movement replaced for $400. And then explain that I don't replace movements. That will have to be done by another shop. I don't camp out on Ebay looking for donors, however I have given information as to what to look for if my customer would like try and find something. If I can't repair or make new part, then I don't repair the clock.

As has been discussed, there are many ways to make a good reliable repair. If invisibly is a criteria and I can't do it to the satisfaction of the customer I simply don't do it.

David
 

R. Croswell

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I'm afraid that if you don't charge for your time you will likely soon be flooded with people bringing you junk that no one else is willing to fix. It's challenging to explain a complicated repair to a customer who knows nothing about the insides of a clock, but I do try. I find that pictures of what's busted and what it should/will be help.

RC
 

Jerry Kieffer

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I can not believe we are talking about a ubiquitous mass produced mantle clock this way, charging the customer three or more times the value of clock when a simple and robust repair is perfectly practicable will just get the clock put into landfill how is that good for anybody.
Stephen
For my part, the repair that I suggested met the criteria of the OP as I perceived it, right or wrong.

I only use the repair procedures that I use on the highest quality most expensive items regardless if a $2.00 alarm clock or a five figure regulator. When practiced on a daily basis, they become highly efficient requiring the least amount of time and effort. The OP`s repair is no exception. I am confident that I can demonstrate that the repair I suggested will require less time and effort to meet original standards than most somewhat effective hack jobs.
For myself, the cost of repair itself is only one part of the cost of most jobs. In fact the repair itself is rarely expensive regardless of the item value due to daily practice of efficient methods used. If I choose to work on a $2.00 dollar arm clock, only the actual repair cost is billed.
When working on very expensive items, most of the cost is the confidence and the ability to properly handle and protect the item while in my possession not required with a $2.00 alarm clock.

While these considerations are very important, they are not the most important to myself.
The most important to myself personally is knowing that I have not decreases the value of my own or a customers possession.

Anyone who has attended a buy sell show or auction knows that visible repairs especially hack jobs can greatly effect the value of many items even the $2.00 alarm clock. (Yes some people even collect $2.00 alarm clocks and are just as fussy as anyone else) Again personally, I can not go to bed at night knowing I have purposely decreased the value of my own items not mention a customers no matter how little the value. Even worse would be thought that I charged a customer to do it.

Its just my thing.

Jerry Kieffer
 

R. Croswell

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........The most important to myself personally is knowing that I have not decreases the value of my own or a customers possession.
Its just my thing.

Jerry Kieffer
And a good thing it is but an increase or decrease in the value of an object relative to a repair is highly subjective because each case is different. If one accepts the 'market value' of the clock in pristine original condition, or the market value immediately before the part was broken as the base line, then when the part broke there was a loss in value because one now has a broken clock that does not run. A repair that returns the clock to operating condition restores some of the value lost when the part broke. It will, however, always be a 'repaired clock' regardless of who fixed it or the method used. A neatly executed functional and durable repair does not reduce the value of the clock unless during the repair further damage is done. It is misleading to say that this or that repair method will reduce the value of the clock. There were I believe four methods suggested either of which if properly executed would restore this clock to normal operation and add to, not subtract from it's value. The degree to which each method restores value to the broken clock is subjective but neither repair will fully restore the original 'value' of the clock. There are other factors that may drive the choice of repair method as well. The curator of a large museum may demand that a repair be invisible, or in some cases may require the repaired part be painted to clearly identify it as a repair, or even reject the clock and attempt to replace it with one that was never broken. Most of the customers I see only want their clock to run again and couldn't care less about the details. There is a place for extreme restoration and I admire those who have an obsession for it, but I must say that I find it a bit disturbing when one implies that any method other than their own is inferior or inappropriate or will destroy the 'value' of a clock, when in fact such measures may not be necessary in every case and any effect on the value of most ordinary clocks is likely minimal.

RC
 

David S

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We are sort of hi jacking the OP's thread. However this entire discussion of invisibility, preserving as much of the original as possible, "do no harm", "ok if it is reversible", etc. All of these things come up frequently.

I think it would be nice to have a go to thread that discusses the various points of view, so that new comers and those who are progressing in the hobby or trade have some guidelines.

As RC states I feel there are times when a certain method is more appropriate than another. I don't work on high value, museum worthy time pieces. I frequently work on movements that some would simply say replace with a new one or quartz. If one of these movements has a broken pivot, surely it would be acceptable to replace it with a pivot cap rather than drilling and inserting. Even with good machining workmanship the pivot cap is certainly visible (like some of the options being discussed here). I have difficulty thinking that in this case we wouldn't consider this as totally acceptable.

A separate thread on the subject may be a tad difficult to moderate.

David
 

shutterbug

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For those seeking information on this subject, a new thread was started here.
 

Jerry Kieffer

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And a good thing it is but an increase or decrease in the value of an object relative to a repair is highly subjective because each case is different. If one accepts the 'market value' of the clock in pristine original condition, or the market value immediately before the part was broken as the base line, then when the part broke there was a loss in value because one now has a broken clock that does not run. A repair that returns the clock to operating condition restores some of the value lost when the part broke. It will, however, always be a 'repaired clock' regardless of who fixed it or the method used. A neatly executed functional and durable repair does not reduce the value of the clock unless during the repair further damage is done. It is misleading to say that this or that repair method will reduce the value of the clock. There were I believe four methods suggested either of which if properly executed would restore this clock to normal operation and add to, not subtract from it's value. The degree to which each method restores value to the broken clock is subjective but neither repair will fully restore the original 'value' of the clock. There are other factors that may drive the choice of repair method as well. The curator of a large museum may demand that a repair be invisible, or in some cases may require the repaired part be painted to clearly identify it as a repair, or even reject the clock and attempt to replace it with one that was never broken. Most of the customers I see only want their clock to run again and couldn't care less about the details. There is a place for extreme restoration and I admire those who have an obsession for it, but I must say that I find it a bit disturbing when one implies that any method other than their own is inferior or inappropriate or will destroy the 'value' of a clock, when in fact such measures may not be necessary in every case and any effect on the value of most ordinary clocks is likely minimal.

RC
RC
The whole situation is much worse than you would believe.

When I take on a repair no matter what it is , I first return any previous visible repair to its original appearance, integrity and function. (Including my own work from the early years)
Now I know this is all wrong, but I have never had a single customer complaint on this practice and for some reason customers keep returning.
In fact, now most do not even ask the repair price.

Well maybe I did stretch the the complaint thing a little. The mother-in-law has had many complaints over the years.

Jerry Kieffer
 

shutterbug

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Well maybe I did stretch the the complaint thing a little. The mother-in-law has had many complaints over the years.

Jerry Kieffer
Those are really hard to fix, Jerry! I'm not even sure what kind of tooling is required! However, a sleeve carefully installed over the lower part of the face might help! :chuckling:
 

TQ60

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Looking at the parts it seems the part on the right was on the left side of the left part and the arbor shaft went thru the plate and the part on the right slips over the long arbor that also is a pivot.

Is this correct?

The break likely was caused by someone trying to remove the outer part and snapped the arbor.

If it was me and we are hobbyist that has tools and is cheap....

We would fixture the arbor in a lathe and drill it out to just under the size needed.

Use the broken part to determine final size and drill one size smaller as drills often drill over.

If hardened you could go on ebay and get some dental burs to cut through the surface.

Assuming the shaft may by heat treated the break point should be softer in the middle.

Drill deep so it cannot shift.

Locate music wire larger size and fit it to drilled hole, this by turning to fit as that is easy.

When sized on one end to fit hole and remaining larger than needed solder it into the hole then machine new end to fit.

This insures everything is centered when finished.

Music wire will be plenty strong and if drilled deep and properly soldered strength will be fine.

Practice on a chunk of music wire same size as actual arbor to determine if you can do the work.

Finished work should be not visible.
 

R. Croswell

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Looking at the parts it seems the part on the right was on the left side of the left part and the arbor shaft went thru the plate and the part on the right slips over the long arbor that also is a pivot. Is this correct? The break likely was caused by someone trying to remove the outer part and snapped the arbor.
Very likely that's how the part was broken.
If it was me and we are hobbyist that has tools and is cheap....
We would fixture the arbor in a lathe and drill it out to just under the size needed.
Use the broken part to determine final size and drill one size smaller as drills often drill over.
That's one method but the trick is to center the hole and drill straight and true which is a bit easier to say than to actually do.
If hardened you could go on ebay and get some dental burs to cut through the surface. Assuming the shaft may by heat treated the break point should be softer in the middle. Drill deep so it cannot shift.
If the part is hard it is most likely hardened completely through and not soft in the center. Dental burs are not the best tool for drilling a straight true and deep hole. As discussed earlier in this thread, one has two options. 1) use a carbide drill that is designed to bore hardened steel, or 2) simply heat the arbor red hot and allow it to cool slowly to anneal it after it can be drilled easily. If music wire or pivot wire is to be used it already has sufficient hardness so there is no need for the arbor to be rehardened.
Locate music wire larger size and fit it to drilled hole, this by turning to fit as that is easy. When sized on one end to fit hole and remaining larger than needed solder it into the hole then machine new end to fit. This insures everything is centered when finished.
Your concept is correct, but if you drill the hole true and to the correct size and select music wire or pivot wire the size of the finish pivot one only need secure the wire in the hole. Music wire is hardened and tempered but can be turned in a lathe but best to use a carbide lathe bit.
Music wire will be plenty strong and if drilled deep and properly soldered strength will be fine. Practice on a chunk of music wire same size as actual arbor to determine if you can do the work.
Music wire will be fine as the pivot material. Soldering the new pivot in place will likely upset some folks here, but it should work OK if you can do it. It is somewhat difficult to solder steel and especially difficult to solder steel into a deep hole. To achieve success one would need to "tin" the parts first but solder takes up space so the parts would need to be assembled "hot" or fit them loosely. One usually would use a tight pressed fit, a tight pressed fit with a slight taper of the inserted part (no solder), or a retaining compound such as one of the Loctite formulas intended for this purpose. In this particular case one must keep in mind that if the strike train locks on the gathering pallet cam the force required to secure the replacement pivot will need to be greater than that require for retaining a regular pivot. That I believe has already been adequately discussed and has resulted in much disagreement as to the appropriate method(s) that might work. Your suggestion to practice on scrap parts is something everyone should do when attempting a repair like this for the first time.
Finished work should be not visible.
Why? Yes, that's a 'loaded question' and there are a lot of different opinions, but other than personal preference, what actual reason requires the repair to be invisible?

Thank you for posting you ideas.

RC
 

David S

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I am also interested in why a repair should be invisible. I do repairs not restorations...other than restoration of function that is.

David
 

Stephen Baguley

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Hello All,

I have a broken gathering pallet wheel arbor from a no-name English time and strike mantle clock. I'm debating the best method to repair the arbor. The pinion and arbor are one piece, so making a new arbor would not be an easy task. The arbor at the break measures 1.3mm, so drilling out the 2 halves and inserting a pin is doable, but challenging. I'm concerned that a pin that small might not be strong enough and may flex under load. Option two is to make a sleeve, and insert both halves of the arbor into the sleeve. This would be simple, but would be more noticeable than a pin. Are there other options or should I go with one of the two mentioned above?

View attachment 324076 View attachment 324077
looks like an Enfield or smiths Enfield to me. Got lots of these wheels as spares.
Hello All,

I have a broken gathering pallet wheel arbor from a no-name English time and strike mantle clock. I'm debating the best method to repair the arbor. The pinion and arbor are one piece, so making a new arbor would not be an easy task. The arbor at the break measures 1.3mm, so drilling out the 2 halves and inserting a pin is doable, but challenging. I'm concerned that a pin that small might not be strong enough and may flex under load. Option two is to make a sleeve, and insert both halves of the arbor into the sleeve. This would be simple, but would be more noticeable than a pin. Are there other options or should I go with one of the two mentioned above?

View attachment 324076 View attachment 324077
Looks like it is off an older Enfield striker to me, have lots of these wheels and pallet as spares.
 

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