Bent Minute Arbor and Clock Identification

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Ravens_Time, Feb 11, 2018.

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  1. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Nov 26, 2016
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    Hello one and all,

    Please help me identify this time only metal wall clock. I was told it is french. The movement has a bent minute arbor which causes it to stop. Runs pretty well otherwise and I love the tiny pendulum. I am including photos of the case and the movement as well as the marking on the rear plate. I was afraid to try to straighten the arbor out of fear of snapping it off. How would you recommend proceeding? As always thank all of you for your invaluable help!!

    Pat

    FRWALL07.jpeg FRWALL03.jpeg FRWALL04.jpeg
    FRWALL01.jpeg FRWALL05.jpeg FRWALL06.jpeg
     
  2. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Oct 19, 2005
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    The French often used hardened steel for pivots. I'm not sure about their arbors. You can test it with a file. If the file just slips off, the arbor is hardened and will have to be annealed before you can bend it back. If the file wants to cut, then it's not hardened and you can go ahead and straighten it. You'll probably have to take it out of the movement to do that, but can sometimes do it without too. Can't help you with the movement or clock name :)
     
  3. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Thank you very much SB! I will try the file and report back. I would probably remove it like you suggest and chuck it in the lathe to get it as accurate as possible.

    Thanks again,

    Pat
     
  4. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
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    Is there any chance that the minute arbor is soldered together? I've read here that they do that in French clocks, and it would make things difficult if anyone were to heat it to draw the temper.

    It +is+ a nice little clock. I wonder what can be done about the finish of the case.

    M Kinsler
     
  5. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Looks vaguely like it might be out of a swinger.
     
  6. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    This movement design was used by Japy Freres but I don't recall the logo to be one of theirs. It was copied by other companies including Lenzkirch, but this is clearly not a Lenzkirch.

    Uhralt
     
  7. Fitzclan

    Fitzclan Registered User

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    I like it! The movement looks very well made.
     
  8. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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  9. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Thanks for your reply Uhralt. Any idea how old that design is? There are several personal markings that appear to go back to ‘22. They are hard to make out.
     
  10. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    It looks to be very well made. The plates are very thick and if the spring fills the barrel it is enormous. I’m curious to find out how many days this clock was designed to run. I will update soon.

    Pat
     
  11. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I would date the movement around 1910. The later dates you found are likely repair or service dates. It is likely an eight day movement but it wouldn't surprise me if it runs two weeks.

    Uhralt
     
  12. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
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    Wow I have the same clock but mine is green. Send me the center shaft I'll straighten it for you.
     
  13. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Thanks Bangster! Is a "Swinger" one of those that are fixed to statues? It does look similar to those if that's what you're referring to.

    Pat
     
  14. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    I disassembled the movement. The center arbor does appear to be hardened. The file scated right across. I annealed the arbor and chucked it up. As you can see this is quite a bit off. I'm still very nervous about bending this w/o breaking it. How would you suggest proceeding:???:

    Thank you for your replies!

    Pat

    FRWALL08.jpeg
     
  15. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    First of all I would repeat the file test in the area to be bent to see if the annealing had worked. Then I would slide a hollow brass rod over the shaft down to slightly above the bend and use it as a lever to bend back carefully just a little bit. Compare against the tailstock center and repeat as needed. I might even repeat annealing if in any doubt.

    Uhralt
     
  16. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Thanks Uhralt! Great idea! I would not have thought of testing again with the file! I will try that. Is there any danger getting the wheel too hot as it it so close to the bend:???:
     
  17. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    You might anneal the brass a bit but it shouldn't be critical because the teeth, that shouldn't be softened, will not get that hot. Good luck!

    Uhralt
     
  18. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    I would turn it around and straighten on the bent end. You may create another bend the way you have it in your lathe. I do this with a dial indicator while rotating to insure true-ness. Start at the bend then keep pulling it out and testing it with the dial indicator. I use a brass rod to tap down while straightening. Never metal to metal.
     
  19. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    You have a lot of metal there, so I don't think breaking it is going to be a huge possibility. I also would turn it around, and you might be able to work the bend with just hand strength, so you can control it better.
     
  20. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Thanks for the replies gentlemen! I like the dial indicator idea. I will try that. I understand turning it around in the lathe. SB...I like the idea of bending it with hand strength. RA...I think I understand what your saying. I was going to drill out a piece of brass stock to slip over the arbor. When its reversed in the lathe are you recommending I slip the brass rod over the short stub of arbor and tap down with a hammer?

    FRWALL09.jpeg

    Thanks Guys,

    Pat
     
  21. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    No tap the brass while it is on the arbor opposite side of the chuck. If you can taper the end like a straight slot screw driver and tap between the leaf pinion. This will keep the other end from bending < end not in the chuck. Put the indicator on the outside arbor.
     
  22. BLKBEARD

    BLKBEARD Registered User
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    You can also push the bend out using the tool post on your cross slide.
    This will give you a very controlled force. I always prefer a controlled bend, rather than pulling or pushing by hand.
    There's less chance of over-shooting your target.

    Just for illustration purposes......You may find that of you push the bent shaft .020", when you release the pressure it springs back .005". So now you know that a .020" push will gain .015" removal of the bend.

    Everything is controlled & measured, and a strait shaft should be achieved.
     
  23. JTD

    JTD Registered User
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    Concerning the trade mark on your movement, this is to be found in Mikrolisk but sadly listed as 'unknown maker'.

    JTD
     
  24. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Thanks to all of you who replied! I borrowed a little from all the suggestions. Used hand strength, used the brass rod and used the cross slide on the lathe. Used the dial indicator and its as straight as I will ever get it! You guys are the best! I am still very new at this and I've been doing it for 4 years and I still feel like I started yesterday!. Plus I was able to use my new Lathe. JTD....Thanks for the info on the trade mark! Sure would be nice to find out a little about this thing. OK, now for the big question...since I annealed the arbor and since it holds the minute hand should I re-harden and then temper? I'm very concerned about getting the wheel too hot. Thanks again for your time!!!

    Pat
     
  25. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I personally would leave it as is. There is not much stress on this wheel (under normal circumstances).
    Uhralt
     
  26. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    I was hoping someone would say that. Only stress I could think of would be when the hands are moved to set the time.

    Thanks Uhralt
     
  27. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    JTD thanks for the reply. I wasn’t familiar with Mikrolisk and just found it based on your reply. Cool site. Thank you

    Pat
     

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