Beginner cleaning solution question.

[ksharp]

Hello all
I have just recently caught the watchmakers bug. I just started getting into the hobby and trying to slowly acquire the tools, solutions, and oils for right now, trying to do it cheep while I'm learning. I just got a cheep non runner from ebay that I'm learning with. I got a Ultrasonic cleaner and some basic solution for watch cases and was wondering if it would also be okay to use with the movement parts? I intend to get the L&R solutions down the road but for now I was hoping to just use the general solution while learning. Also, any ideas of cheep rinsing solutions.

Anyways, thanks in advance for any advice and input.

 

[Willie X]

US and US solutions are not all that necessary and in some ways not desirable. So, you can skip all that and use a mild petroleum solvent like mineral spirits. Willie X

 

[shutterbug]

If you are talking about watches and not clocks, you might be better off jumping on the watch repair forum for more watch related info.

 

[ksharp]

If you are talking about watches and not clocks, you might be better off jumping on the watch repair forum for more watch related info.

Oh opps. you are right, I'm in the wrong spot. so sorry. I will try and move this over to Watch repair. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[JTD]

Oh opps. you are right, I'm in the wrong spot. so sorry. I will try and move this over to Watch repair. Thanks for the heads up.

You can't move it yourself, but a moderator can. Click on the 'report' button at the bottom of your last message and ask to have it moved.

JTD

 

[ksharp]

You can't move it yourself, but a moderator can. Click on the 'report' button at the bottom of your last message and ask to have it moved.

JTD

Awesome, Thank you.

 

[musicguy]

You can't move it yourself, but a moderator can.

Done


Rob

 

[ksharp]

Done


Rob

Wow, that was fast. Thank you!

 

[Willie X]

Yep, need a clarification. Willie X

 

[menez718]

I am a beginner as well and I am getting good results with first hand cleaning the parts with pegwood, pithwood for pivots, rodico for teeth and leaves, once over with stiff paint brush or pointy cotton swab and IPA then tossing watch parts into brass cleaning baskets.

One 15 min wash cycle in Naptha and two shorter 5 min rinse cycles with 99% IPA in the Ultrasonic cleaner. I use small sealable jars in tap water so as to not waste the cleaning fluids. I clean the pallet fork and balance complete separately by soaking in IPA for about 1 min and using the air bulb to create agitation. Any longer and you risk damaging any shellac.

This method works for me but I am learning as I make my own mistakes! Good luck!

 

[Mk2]

As an extreme money saving hobbyist, I use domestic ammonia solution (same as branded watch cleaning solutions, but without the surfactants), IPA, brake and clutch cleaner (same as one dip) and acetone. And of course deionised water for rinsing.

I don't have an ultrasonic cleaner, but i have jam jars and long tweezers.

My sequence is strip down and plunge everything except pallet forks into brake and clutch cleaner. Using a fine stainless tea strainer. Then IPA, then Acetone. By which time everything should be fully degreased. Then into the ammonia for about 10 mins, with aggitation using an air stone and a small aquarium air pump, to remove any metallic pastes and organic oxides. Then out and rinse well. Then dry at 60c in the kitchen oven. Perfectly clean. The pallet forks I clean by hand, since solvents can melt the pallet jewels 'glue' (shellac).

Way more time consuming than professional cleaning equipment, but i challenge anyone to get a cleaner result. No trace of anything left except very clean metal. Blued metals stay blue. Bare steels stay silvery without any discolouration (which I've seen with commercial cleaning setups). And 6mm (1/4") hardwood dowels sharpened with a pencil sharpener are used to persuade any stubborn deposits to leave. What is "peg wood"? And white-tac instead of Rodico (same stuff) to buff polished surfaces like screw heads.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

What is "peg wood"? And white-tac instead of Rodico (same stuff) to buff polished surfaces like screw heads.

The stuff sold by materials houses as peg wood can be sticks of orange wood, (mostly from India now), beech, hornbeam, or Swiss Gentian wood, (in ascending order of price), and I don't suppose there's much difference between that and your hardwood sticks.

Rodico and its variants can be useful for removing odd marks, but it isn't a buffing compound and it can leave a sticky deposit, so best used with caution. Whether it's the same as Blu-Tack and similar products, I wouldn't care to say, but it's certainly similar, (and they can all leave an oily deposit as well).

Depending on the type of watches you're dealing with, ammonia can cause cracking in very old brass plates, and one of its functions is to brighten gilt surfaces, but there are perfectly effective cleaners which don't include it. Alcohols will certainly dissolve shellac, and you're sensible to be cautious about that. One way of using shellac as an adhesive is to dissolve some in ethanol and use that to fix pallets or impulse jewels, although it's slower to set than using heat.

Regards,

Graham

 

[everydaycats]

I am a beginner as well and I am getting good results with first hand cleaning the parts with pegwood, pithwood for pivots, rodico for teeth and leaves, once over with stiff paint brush or pointy cotton swab and IPA then tossing watch parts into brass cleaning baskets.

One 15 min wash cycle in Naptha and two shorter 5 min rinse cycles with 99% IPA in the Ultrasonic cleaner. I use small sealable jars in tap water so as to not waste the cleaning fluids. I clean the pallet fork and balance complete separately by soaking in IPA for about 1 min and using the air bulb to create agitation. Any longer and you risk damaging any shellac.

This method works for me but I am learning as I make my own mistakes! Good luck!

Pallet fork and Balance in IPA is something I have always been scared to attempt. Dissolved shellac is a worry for me.
Regards

 

[menez718]

Pallet fork and Balance in IPA is something I have always been scared to attempt. Dissolved shellac is a worry for me.
Regards

I ruined my first couple of movements by Ultrasonic cleaning the balance and pallet fork in IPA for 10 minutes. Not good. After recently watching the following YouTube video, I now allow them both to soak in IPA for about a minute or so with no ill effects. Good luck!

 

[everydaycats]

As an extreme money saving hobbyist, I use domestic ammonia solution (same as branded watch cleaning solutions, but without the surfactants), IPA, brake and clutch cleaner (same as one dip) and acetone. And of course deionised water for rinsing.

I don't have an ultrasonic cleaner, but i have jam jars and long tweezers.

My sequence is strip down and plunge everything except pallet forks into brake and clutch cleaner. Using a fine stainless tea strainer. Then IPA, then Acetone. By which time everything should be fully degreased. Then into the ammonia for about 10 mins, with aggitation using an air stone and a small aquarium air pump, to remove any metallic pastes and organic oxides. Then out and rinse well. Then dry at 60c in the kitchen oven. Perfectly clean. The pallet forks I clean by hand, since solvents can melt the pallet jewels 'glue' (shellac).

Way more time consuming than professional cleaning equipment, but i challenge anyone to get a cleaner result. No trace of anything left except very clean metal. Blued metals stay blue. Bare steels stay silvery without any discolouration (which I've seen with commercial cleaning setups). And 6mm (1/4") hardwood dowels sharpened with a pencil sharpener are used to persuade any stubborn deposits to leave. What is "peg wood"? And white-tac instead of Rodico (same stuff) to buff polished surfaces like screw heads.

And I thought I was the only one to keep a can of Brake Cleaner handy for rust removal on plates. Seems like an over abundance of cleaners/chemicals in your process, but if it works for you that's a good thing.
Regards

 

[Mk2]

I've read (and watched) numerous articles about gilding, or laying gold leaf onto various substrates using egg white (which dries into a hard glue). So yes, totally agree under those circumstances. Definitely no ammonia solution there. I'd probably be scared to even use a sponge swab and water in that case. Just imagine catching the edge of a film of gold leaf and accidentally peeling it back...

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

I've read (and watched) numerous articles about gilding, or laying gold leaf onto various substrates using egg white (which dries into a hard glue).

That process, using gold leaf, wasn't ever used on watches as far as I'm aware. Mercury or fire gilding was used on most watches well into the 19th century, with electrogilding taking over when it was developed. The former is extremely robust with many examples in remarkably fine condition after over 300 years of use and servicing. Electroplate produces a rather thinner coating and can suffer losses, especially from extended ultrasonic treatment; I'd class ten minutes or more in a heated tank as excessive.

I'm not comfortable with exposing watches to any water-based cleaners.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Mk2]

Learnt something there... Thanks Graham!

So everyone must have died from mercury poisoning in those days. Wow. Did they make an amalgam and butter the paste over the brass surface before firing? (I know very little about fire gilding and the processes needed for cleaning).

And I can imagine that firing must have been a delicate process to stop the brass oxidising in the heat, as it melts at a lower temperature than gold. Maybe they used a flux powder mixed into the amalgam? Interesting.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

So everyone must have died from mercury poisoning in those days. Wow. Did they make an amalgam and butter the paste over the brass surface before firing? (I know very little about fire gilding and the processes needed for cleaning).

Although the life expectancy of gilders was very short due to the poisonous mercury vapour, it was a very widely applied process.

This is still done by a few workers, using modern fume extraction techniques. Dirk Meyer in Germany is one. The amalgam is indeed 'buttered' on to the object. On some old watch parts the places where the paste wasn't brushed on can clearly be seen. It wasn't applied in areas not seen by the owner!



The gold doesn't need to be raised to its melting point, the mercury vaporises at around 300ºC leaving the gold behind.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Mk2]

So how would one go about cleaning that finish? If the gold is just "sitting" on the surface, it can't be as well bonded as electroplating. Wiping it could potentially scrape off gold. I can foresee so many questions... Definitely need to research this more.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

So how would one go about cleaning that finish? If the gold is just "sitting" on the surface, it can't be as well bonded as electroplating. Wiping it could potentially scrape off gold. I can foresee so many questions... Definitely need to research this more.

Well I don't know how the chemistry works, but I can testify from experience that it's very firmly attached to the brass, as well as being far thicker than any electroplating, which is usually less than 20 microns thick. It definitely won't wipe off!

To clean it, I just run it in the ultrasonic, in L&R 566, for less than 2 minutes, when it comes out looking great as a rule. The old books talk about using a cyanide solution to clean gilt watch plates, but somehow I don't fancy trying that method . . .

This watch was made around 1685, it will have been cleaned many times in all sorts of concoctions over those years and the gilding still looks fine.



Regards,

Graham

 

[karlmansson]

So how would one go about cleaning that finish? If the gold is just "sitting" on the surface, it can't be as well bonded as electroplating. Wiping it could potentially scrape off gold. I can foresee so many questions... Definitely need to research this more.

I’ve learned that many watchmakers handling antique watches with sensitive finishes use benzine and a soft brush. You would clean the parts in stages with that method, changing the benzine to fresh solvent for each step. And as always, especially with a solvent as volatile as benzine, you need to dry the parts in a heated chamber to prevent condensation from forming and causing rust.

If you decide to try this, be sure to either wear a solvent safe respirator or be sure to have very good ventilation.

 

[karlmansson]

I treat IPA as a “water remover”. Or a final quick rinse. I don’t think you even need to use ultrasonic for it to do its thing, agitation should be enough. It’s hygroscopic and will pull out (dilute) and water still present in nooks and crannies in the plates and parts (if you use water based cleaners). It can be used with petroleum based cleaners as well but then the same won’t really apply. It will leave parts chemically clean but you don’t need more than 2mins max of agitation. The cleaning process should already be done at that stage, the rinsing is just getting rid of the clinging precious fluids.

Same goes here: dry in a heated chamber or you will get condensation.

 

[Mk2]

using a cyanide solution to clean gilt watch plates

I always thought potassium or sodium cyanide solutions were used to extract gold from a heap leach (gold mining process), or as a base for electroplating gold onto a metal. I think they have the ability to somehow absorb metal particles into solution (including other metals, not just gold). So if used to clean gold, I'd guess the stuff works by dissolving away the top surface. Only a few microns, but still, you'd not want to do that too many times. I bet it looks like new when cleaned though!

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

Only a few microns, but still, you'd not want to do that too many times. I bet it looks like new when cleaned though!

I believe you're right about the use of cyanide in mining. I think the over-zealous restoration of these old watches is not at all desirable!

Regards,

Graham

 

[Appa69]

I've used 3:1 mineral spirits and naphtha for years without fail. Cheap and easy.

 

[ksharp]

Thank you all for your input. I've been experimenting with cleaning methods. I started with dish soap and IPA rinse then dry. While I know this is a taboo method I wanted to go with mild chemicals (the Idea of putting IPA and/or Lighter fluid in the US cleaner makes me very nervous) The first two movements that I cleaned up I had no problems, Everything cleaned up well. The third one however, the ratchet wheel came out with some staining on it, I assume it to be rust. Everything else came out fine. I don't know if I just didn't dry it fast enough or if I over filled the basket. Any Ideas of what this is if not rust. And is there a way to remove it. I've tried backing soda and vinegar with no luck.

Anyway. I guess I'll give Naptha and IPA a try next, maybe just not use in USC.

Thanks.

 

[karlmansson]

Thank you all for your input. I've been experimenting with cleaning methods. I started with dish soap and IPA rinse then dry. While I know this is a taboo method I wanted to go with mild chemicals (the Idea of putting IPA and/or Lighter fluid in the US cleaner makes me very nervous) The first two movements that I cleaned up I had no problems, Everything cleaned up well. The third one however, the ratchet wheel came out with some staining on it, I assume it to be rust. Everything else came out fine. I don't know if I just didn't dry it fast enough or if I over filled the basket. Any Ideas of what this is if not rust. And is there a way to remove it. I've tried backing soda and vinegar with no luck.
View attachment 752137 View attachment 752138

Anyway. I guess I'll give Naptha and IPA a try next, maybe just not use in USC.

Thanks.

Was there any dirt matching those patterns before you started cleaning it? If so, it could be pitting from rust that was already there.

The surfaces that are affected are comparatively large, steel surfaces so it makes sense that they would be affected by condensation. Did you dry with warm air?

 

[Mk2]

Seriously, try brake and clutch cleaner. Once degreased, any stained or tarnished parts can often be "polished" with rodico/blue tac/white tack...

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

Once degreased, any stained or tarnished parts can often be "polished" with rodico/blue tac/white tack...

. . .Which can replace the oily deposits you've just removed with some new ones of its own. . .

Try rubbing the marks gently with a good quality pencil eraser, it might remove them if they're just on the surface and you could be surprised at the result.

If they're actually corrosion, (rust), the surface will be etched to a greater or lesser extent and it then becomes a two step process. The rust must first be stabilised, either with a weak acid, (even the tannic acid in tea can work quite well), one of the 'Evaporust' type products, or electrolysis. Having stabilised it, the decision then is whether to refinish the surfaces; if it's a wheel that's been snailed, that involves some specialised tooling on a lathe, but otherwise it may just need repolishing, and this can bring its own challenges in keeping the surfaces flat and not rounding the edges.

Regards,

Graham

 

[ksharp]

Was there any dirt matching those patterns before you started cleaning it? If so, it could be pitting from rust that was already there.

The surfaces that are affected are comparatively large, steel surfaces so it makes sense that they would be affected by condensation. Did you dry with warm air?

I didn't notice anything on there. I did a pre-wash with IPA before putting in the USC. I'll check the pics before i cleaned to see if I can see anything.

I do. I've been using a hair dryer for around 30 min. I've been leving the parts in the baskets while drying. Maybe I should have removed them.

 

[ksharp]

Seriously, try brake and clutch cleaner. Once degreased, any stained or tarnished parts can often be "polished" with rodico/blue tac/white tack...

Thank you. Yeah, I'll give it a try. You mantiond this is the same as one dip. Would it be safe to soak the balance in this to clean. I have been excluding the balance and pallet forks from my cleaning process until I could get some one dip.

 

[ksharp]

Hi Frank,


. . .Which can replace the oily deposits you've just removed with some new ones of its own. . .

Try rubbing the marks gently with a good quality pencil eraser, it might remove them if they're just on the surface and you could be surprised at the result.

If they're actually corrosion, (rust), the surface will be etched to a greater or lesser extent and it then becomes a two step process. The rust must first be stabilised, either with a weak acid, (even the tannic acid in tea can work quite well), one of the 'Evaporust' type products, or electrolysis. Having stabilised it, the decision then is whether to refinish the surfaces; if it's a wheel that's been snailed, that involves some specialised tooling on a lathe, but otherwise it may just need repolishing, and this can bring its own challenges in keeping the surfaces flat and not rounding the edges.

Regards,

Graham

Pencil eraser! I never would have thought of that, thank you. I will give Evaporust a try as well. I don't think I will go so far as to refinishing it. I have to get a replacement Balance complete and a plate fork bridge for this movement so I may just see if i can get another ratchet wheel as well.

 

[Mk2]

Graham, you're right of course. I should have added "fresh" rodico...

And I've found that if you buy a $5 broken junk movement on Ebay that's been damp for years, cleaning with a strong solution of ammonia not only cleans. But also removes rust. BUT- you need to work fast to stop it dissolving any freshly exposed material away, and then rinse very well. And immediately dry it. One piece at a time, not all together in a mesh basket (tea strainer), as otherwise when they touch each other, you get a battery effect and one will actually dissolve the other where it touches! Been there. Done that... Oh and like Graham mentioned before, don't even think about going near gilded materials!

I wonder if it's possible to buy that 'gritty', usually pink, pencil eraser rubber material separately? Good idea. Rodico is a bit soft.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

I should have added "fresh" rodico...

I was talking about the fresh stuff, it's all the same, it leaves a film straight out of the packet.

The pink erasers were meant for pen and ink marks, probably too coarse and scratchy. I meant the good white pencil erasers, such as Staedtler.

Gilt brass is OK if you use a cleaner that's designed for watches. Besides having potentially unwanted effects on the watch, anmmonia is most unpleasant just to use.

Regards,

Graham

 

[everydaycats]

Seriously, try brake and clutch cleaner. Once degreased, any stained or tarnished parts can often be "polished" with rodico/blue tac/white tack...

Ditto. Some here may disagree, but I use auto break cleaner for plates and large parts that have pitting or rust. It is not necessary all the time, but when I have a movement in bad shape I put on the rubber gloves and give the parts a few brisk squirts of break cleaner—works like a charm.
Regards

 

[Mk2]

One dip (auto parts cleaner/genclean/trichloroethelene) is good for most substances except natural rubber.

So forks and balance, just fine. Pallet stone glue unaffected.

Graham, would you agree that extra care should be taken when cleaning older style hair springs- the black/blue alloy steel type- and not go near them with water soluble cleaners. Apparently the surface of the steel can be affected somehow, which changes the characteristics of the springs. I think they become stiffer and more brittle (causing the rate to speed up)?

 

[gmorse]

Hi Frank,

...would you agree that extra care should be taken when cleaning older style hair springs- the black/blue alloy steel type- and not go near them with water soluble cleaners. Apparently the surface of the steel can be affected somehow, which changes the characteristics of the springs. I think they become stiffer and more brittle (causing the rate to speed up)?

Yes, certainly no water, and ideally not on any other part of the watch either. There is anecdotal evidence that putting balance springs in ultrasonics has a bad effect on them, but I've never seen an adequate explanation for it, other than the 'blowing off' of tiny rust spots, which are already affecting it or will in the future. The strength of a balance spring is proportional to the cube of its thickness, so any small surface irregularities will certainly affect its performance.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Appa69]

I didn't see if anyone had mentioned, but you can, of course, put solvents in glass jars and put the jars in the ultrasonic cleaner, then fill with water to the same level. The sound waves transfer through the glass very well and makes things a lot easier to handle.

 

[ksharp]

One dip (auto parts cleaner/genclean/trichloroethelene) is good for most substances except natural rubber.

So forks and balance, just fine. Pallet stone glue unaffected.

Graham, would you agree that extra care should be taken when cleaning older style hair springs- the black/blue alloy steel type- and not go near them with water soluble cleaners. Apparently the surface of the steel can be affected somehow, which changes the characteristics of the springs. I think they become stiffer and more brittle (causing the rate to speed up)?

Thanks Mk2 and Graham for all the input. The balance and pallet for are always set a side and much care given to them. What are your thoughts about Jewels in bridges that are (from what I assume) are force fit. Would they be sensitive to US cleaner and IPA?
I have been experimenting with break solution and it has been working well. Mostly using it with balance complete and pallet forks, really anything with a jewel. One question however, how do you use it, meaning to you have it stored in some kinda jar? Or do you just spray it on the parts. I put some in a Masson jar to soak parts when needed then reuse and as expected it is eating through the gasket at the top of the lid. Any tips on storing the solution to reuse?

Thanks again for the input and info.

 

[Mk2]

I use the brake cleaner (trichloroethylene) in exactly the same way as one dip... Dunk your parts in the stuff, leave for a few mins, swish about, then remove and rest on lint free absorbent paper. A piece of sharpened starbucks hardwood coffee stirrer (free "peg wood") works well to remove any stubborn dirt. Then repeat until everything is like shiny and new again.

Old glass jam/peanut butter jars, the wide shallow type, I find best.

 

[gmorse]

Hi ksharp,

What are your thoughts about Jewels in bridges that are (from what I assume) are force fit. Would they be sensitive to US cleaner and IPA?

Jewels will be either friction fitted, (pressed into a hole 1/100 mm undersized), or rubbed-in (in older watches, held in place by a rim of the setting hole swaged over their edges). Neither type will be affected by any solvents that are safe to use on the rest of the watch, there's no adhesive of any sort used, at least as originally made. However, there's no accounting for what the bodgers might have been up to; anything from fish glue to superglue, (or even silicone sealant), could be in there!

Regards,

Graham

 

[karlmansson]

Hi ksharp,


Jewels will be either friction fitted, (pressed into a hole 1/100 mm undersized), or rubbed-in (in older watches, held in place by a rim of the setting hole swaged over their edges). Neither type will be affected by any solvents that are safe to use on the rest of the watch, there's no adhesive of any sort used, at least as originally made. However, there's no accounting for what the bodgers might have been up to; anything from fish glue to superglue, (or even silicone sealant), could be in there!

Regards,

Graham

Decent, friction fit jewels tolerate most things except for mechanical forces. They crack easily if subjected to point loads. I remember a member of this forum who sacrificed a scrap bridge as an experiment in order to settle a debate about thermal expansion of the surrounding metal if heated. Took a blow torch to a bridge and heated it enough for it to get badly discoloured. The jewels were intact. I would emphasize that this is the modern friction fit, synthetic jewels and not the very old charin set or rubbed in ones which can sometimes be natural stones.

 

[ksharp]

Seriously, try brake and clutch cleaner....

So I've been using Brake cleaner and I've been liking it. However, I have only been able to finde brake cleaner with acetone or tetrachloroethylene, I haven't been able to fined any trichloroethelene. I've been using the acetone bc and it seams to be doing a pretty good job, i have yet to try the one with tetrachloroethylene.
Is there a big difference between tetrachloroethylene, trichloroethylene and acetone? Is there one that is better then the others? or am I just being much to persnickety.
Thanks