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Barwise & Son

John Pavlik

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Dec 30, 2001
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Hers a new one for me... English lever that has a single banking pin. Lever has a square notch at the end with banking done with a pin thru the top plate... It appears banking can not be adjusted as the square notch sides are flat, not tapered... The roller jewel also appears to have a squared front that also fits the front of the levers rather large square notch... Amy one have an opinion of see one of these before?
 

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novicetimekeeper

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Jul 26, 2015
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I have one with a round hole in the end with a single pin. Graham has it at the moment but I might have a pic.
 

gmorse

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Jan 7, 2011
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Hi John,

Without seeing the part in question it's hard to say, but what you describe of the roller jewel and lever fork could apply to a Savage escapement. Whilst most of them used two separate gold pins, a few did have a very wide jewel instead. Can you see whether the notch in the roller has square sides or is it the usual passing crescent? It's a Savage if the notch is narrow and square, but a variant on an English lever otherwise.

It's very unusual to find an English lever with adjustable banking pins, at least until the days of the Lancashire Watch Company.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Pavlik

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Jerry & Graham, thanks for the links and opinion. Attached is a photo of the roller table and jewel.. the side of the jewel are tapered front to back side... Lever slot does resemble a Savage 2 pin... I do have a similiar Barrauds with this type of jewel..
 

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gmorse

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Hi John,

It's the slot in the roller which is the distinguishing feature, and I can't see clearly whether it's a crescent or has parallel sides; I'm guessing that it looks more like a crescent. If it's a crescent, then it's one of the numerous variations on the English lever which were tried in the early days of this escapement, and not a Savage. In a Savage, the roller jewel, (or pair of pins), only serves to unlock, and the impulse is given by the guard pin on the lever to the sides of the slot in the roller.

Regards,

Graham
 

Lychnobius

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Aug 5, 2015
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It strikes me (though this is not directly relevant to the escapement question) that the balance is very like that of my James McCabe no. 6774, which is a duplex movement dating from about 1810. This may conceivably be a clue to the age of John's movement.

John, may we see a view of the backplate?

Oliver Mundy.
 

John Pavlik

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Oliver, here you go.... Please give your thoughts after viewing photos..

Graham, the roller table cut out is crescent shape... This Might sound kind of senseless, a big influence on the purchase was the gold seconds hand... Do not see many of those any more.. and is probably "rarer" than the escapement ....
 

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gmorse

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Hi John,

Fine, so this is a variant on the English ratchet tooth lever, and a fairly early one as well since I think it dates from the 1820s. The style is very similar to this 1825 Massey V. A look under the dial might be informative.

DSCF3613.jpg

The seconds hand is certainly unusual, and looks quite original.

[EDIT] Based on the number sequences published in the March 2014 AHS Journal article by A.D.Stewart, (updated from an earlier list by David Thompson), this serial number falls into the very early 1820s. As such, I think it deserves a place in the "Early Table Lever" thread.

Regards,

Graham
 
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Lychnobius

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Thank you, John! Like Graham, I feel this is an early specimen. For example, the dial with its little ornaments at the quarters is very like that of my Litherland Whiteside rack-lever (circa 1812), although I am not suggesting that it dates quite as far back as that.

Oliver Mundy.
 

John Pavlik

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Graham, another subtle feature of both these movements and something I have not seen, the regulator scale is affixed with a single screw thru the bottom of the plate.. Your thoughts on what the
purpose would be ? Looks a lot cleaner..
 

gmorse

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Hi John,

These applied scales are called "London Quadrants" by Dr. Robert Kemp in his book "The Fusee Lever Watch", and he suggests that they were initially a characteristic of good Clerkenwell finishing, subsequently used by Liverpool and Coventry men, but I haven't come across this term anywhere else. In terms of manufacture, they would have been made and divided as complete rings, and then chopped into sectors of the appropriate length, which would make the application of a scale far easier, and a single screw in the centre was quite adequate with a steady pin at each end; my Massey V has two steady pins.

Regards,

Graham
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Feb 9, 2013
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Hi Graham,
Thank you, to make life easier for John 318 of the thread. Also the book by Dr Robert Kemp "The Fusee Lever Watch" is a good read too.

Regards,

Allan.
 

John Pavlik

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Dec 30, 2001
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Thanks Graham & Alan... Alan your lever and banking is very similiar to mine... at times the terminology is different... I call it a banking pin, you refer to it as a safety pin. This gets confusing when on the other end of the lever we have a "safety" pin to prevent over banking... on with the single banking pin, the Notable American watch company, E. Howard used a single hanging banking pin for a period in the 1860's.. Wonder where he got that idea ?
 

gmorse

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Hi John,

Shouldn't be any confusion; the safety pin, (single roller), or dart, (double roller), is on the lever fork and prevents the fork from engaging with the roller impulse pin unless it's in the right position, (when the pin enters the passing crescent), and the banking pin or pins limit the travel, and hence the amount of locking, of the pallets relative to the escape wheel teeth. Not allowing the user to adjust the banking pins does have its attractions!

Regards,

Graham
 

pmwas

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Dec 12, 2010
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Nice wide roller :)
The only time I've seen such wide roller was when I was working on Lancaster model 2 (aka Adams&Perry movement)

DSC09855.JPG DSC09908.JPG DSC09904.JPG

But it's a double roller escapement

BTW - English watchmaking is great, anything interesting you find in a watch - the English watchmakers did that before anyway ;)
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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Hi Pmwas,
Do you have some history on this watch, like its date of production. Nice piece of work.

Regards,

Allan.
 

pmwas

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This was made by early Lancaster Watch Company, successor to the (very) short-lived Adams&Perry Manufacturing Co. Both 19 size model 1 and 2 are called 'Adams&Perry' movements.

At first they made lovely, very high grade watches, later a variety of grades from 7 jewel up to 20 jewel pieces, under names of Lancaster and later Keystone Watch Co.
Later watches are not as interesting as the earliest (the 20j top grades are also not as interesting, but close), and the one I've shown is not as interesting as model 1 with all three Perry's patents:

Thread showing the elusive model 1 (first post):

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?124502-19-Size-Adams-Perry-Lancaster-Watch-Co-Movement

And two blog posts about model two - legendary post by dweiss17:

https://mb.nawcc.org/entry.php?46-FINDING-AND-RESTORING-AN-ADAMS-PERRY-WATCH

And my struggle with the one I've shown, not yet finished...

https://mb.nawcc.org/entry.php?253-Inside-the-Adams-Perry-model-2-19-size-movement

The model 2 movements were made somewhere around 1877-1880.
Thanks for your interest - lovely movements indeed :) !
 

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