Barwise File.

I have put this new thread on here to make it easily accessible, and where it is now it seems to be an obstacle.

It is as been said by many, that the numbers system used by John Barwise is complicated, but the more we find of his work, the more clearly it becomes, that his system was straight forward. We are talking here of John Barwise senior, who lived from c1756 to 1820. Probably because he knew he was dying, he brought his two sons into the business in 1819. Weston Barwise (1793-1826) and John Barwise /1795-1869) to continue the Business. Though looking at the File below we can see that up to 1820 the numbers were consecutive. The file below has been corrected and more numbers installed.

Anyone who has a Barwise pocket watch, not on this file, I would be pleased to hear from them.

Allan.

 

69: Barwise Marine Chronometer movement - Jul 31, 2010 | Schmidt's Antiques Inc. Since 1911 in MI.

An example of sales long gone, but we do have a photograph. Number 4137.c1807

 

Finding Barwise watches are far easier today than it was researchers years ago, who had, I think a difficult and time-consuming search. I know from experience that when I started to take interest in Horology, it was sitting for hours and writing on an old typewriter, then putting my efforts (and bad spelling) in an envelope, sticking a stamp on there, and waiting sometimes weeks for a reply. In the meantime reading all, I could about clocks and watches. Many of you will know this of course, but today all it takes is a few clicks on this machine, and all is laid before you. Below are a few pieces I found on the net, among many others, which give a demonstration of Wow Wow, down to what the hell is this, plus those where you know the seller as not done his research. The first one here as a wonderful Detent pocket watch for sale(a long time ago), but claims the watch to be hallmarked London c1790, then shows a photograph of the hallmarks which are clear for 1808.


Barwise London Very Fine Silver Pocket Chronometer, No. 4387, circa | Lot #54191 | Heritage Auctions



The file grows by the hour........

 

Hi Keith, nice movement you have there, could you please send the escapement and any other details it might have, like that inner case, is it hallmarked? Nice touch with the Bosley on the cock. Allan

PS: Read you post again Cylinder 1804-I will put it on file now.

 

Los 4197 "Taschenuhr: hochfeines englisches Taschenchronometer mit Chronometerunruh nach Pennington, Barwise London No. 5336, London 1812" aus dem Auktionskatalog "Spezialauktion "Uhren"" vom 05.05.2018: Foto, Preis, Auktionsergebnis, Online kaufen


This watch, among others I have seen today, just makes my mouth dribble, I must start putting my pennies in a box, then buy one.

 

Hi Niall, Thank you for sending the post, you will see your Barwise number on the next issue. Best wishes, Allan

 

Over the weekend I have taken the time to look for pocket watches by John Barwise, John Barwise & Sons, and later others. This file below is far more comprehensive, and I have come to the conclusion that John Bawrise started to set out a numbering system that was consecutive. The earliest watch at the moment is No. 37 and is dated c1780, some two hundred and thirty-nine years ago. By the time of his death these numbers had reached roughly 8000 items, though I am not sure if his clocks were part of the system. A time scale like that makes one think quite a bit, ledgers come to mind, much like those found in France by Breguet, ledgers like that are very few and far between. Then it struck me, while I was working on "The Book" the most important security for watchmaker and customer was the watch serial number. You took your watch to the repairer for cleaning, and you received a chit, with the items number, saying when you could collect it, and the watchmaker, in this case, noted that number in his workbook. It saved him a lot of time, explaining the watch. Another point here was many of the watches brought into the Osborne workshop in New York, were not well recorded because many Europian watches did not have a serial number. Putting Swiss silver watch is of little interest for researchers, after two hundred years, have gone by. At the time of that first watch sold by Barwise, we have to remember the only watch you could buy had a verge escapement.( We know the story of other escapements and those who could afford one) A verge watch needed cleaning at least every two years, if not sooner, so when a customer brought in his watch, it would like today with our automobiles, be nice to open a ledger and look at what had gone before with the watch. Nice to just look at the number on the watch and trace it in the ledger. Later this was normal, just look at watches by Patek, Langer, Rolex, Jügenson, Audemars, and many others. It would be assistant if others could put their thoughts on here about serial numbers, but first take a look at what can be found in just a few hours. (" Warts and All" has Burton said ) Allan.

 

This file is moving along, though slowing down a bit now. I think the numbers for John Barwise senior are straight forward. It is only much later that there is some confusion, but when more of these watches are found, they will tell us more. Allan.

 

Hi Dave, at the moment your watch is c1832/34, and why they chose to use that double number is not clear. A.D.Stewart does not even mention them. That then was the period when John Junior was running the company, and I think still running a good business. Not long after, he must have been, or Alexander Bain would not have asked him to help him sponsor his Patent. Then he decided to help Ingold, and that turned out to be the mistake that ruined him. The rest is all in A.D. Stewart´s article in the March 2013 copy of the AHS journal-good read. Though this file is produced to help those to do further research, there are still many questions about the firm, though one point will stand, BARWISE LONDON was a quality firm and worth collecting. Thanks too for the tip on the duel levers Dave.

Allan

 

I was going to put it on file Dave but forgot to ask what the escapement was. So it will be on the next File. (Savage two-pin)? I have Thompson´s article, and I wrote to him asking if he had more information, but never got a reply. Allan

 

Thank you, Dave, I thought it could be a Savage two Pin like my 10/241. See below. Case maker JD Joseph Derwin 1824-to c1834. in 1834 he was at 17, Red Lion Sreet, Clerkenwell, London. Letter "q" for 1831.

 

This file was started by when Seth Kennedy put his Barwise 1472 on this board, not that he knew about it, it was just my belief that Barwise used consecutive serial numbers, and I started the search. I did not put 1472 on the list in the hope that I would find more close to 1472, this I was till now unable to achieve. Has it stands at the moment 1472 is the earliest or first Detent pocket chronometer by Barwise. I would be most interested if members could help or know of a chronometer by Barwise that has a smaller number. Allan

 

Update-there was a mistake with the 4000´s now corrected.

 

I think I now have it right-sorry about the delay.

 

I have a watch here by Barwise St. Martins Lane, that I once put on the Single Table Roller thread. The odd thing about the watch (Movement anyway), is it has no number on it, and of course, it's not on the above file. Add to that it was at some time converted to STR, and it is also in a pair-case of uncertain date. It runs very well though.
I am not sure, but I think it was converted from a Rack Lever, the banking pins are set near the roller. and the righthand one is bent. So I thought you might like to see it and give your opinions. A rough guess of this watch and where it would fit above, I think would be fun. One thought that came to mind is that Barwise only did the conversion??








This for John Matthews "JC" on the cap.



These are very odd-looking hallmarks for Birmingham when compared to those in the hallmark books. Plus who is JK? This case though can not be used to date this watch, it is a marriage.

Allan.

 

Thanks, John, the 1820s are about right for this movement, the case is a story on its own, the 1790 shield for Birmingham is very much like that of 1816 the next "S" is 1841, but gothic. The "S" for 1867 is in a round shield and the "S" for 1892 is an "S" with a line through left to right. I think the marks would have been 1816, but somehow the punches were faulty. I wonder if other members have seen these marks on their watches. JK is the case-maker, see below. I think it is Jeremiah Liggins, Summerland Place, The Butts, Coventry. In Priestley´s new book page 55. Sorry the dot between J&K were not clear on the other photograph. Thanks Again, Allan

 

Thanks yet again John, I will try and remember that the punch is for small wear. Never seen it before, but then I have very few Birmingham watch cases.

Keith, not 1820, I said the twenties, that would include 1829. Good comment though, I don´t think we will ever know the exact date, but we are somewhere around 1829-1835.

 

Just an update.