Barwise File.

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Allan C. Purcell, Nov 29, 2019.

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  1. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I have put this new thread on here to make it easily accessible, and where it is now it seems to be an obstacle.

    It is as been said by many, that the numbers system used by John Barwise is complicated, but the more we find of his work, the more clearly it becomes, that his system was straight forward. We are talking here of John Barwise senior, who lived from c1756 to 1820. Probably because he knew he was dying, he brought his two sons into the business in 1819. Weston Barwise (1793-1826) and John Barwise /1795-1869) to continue the Business. Though looking at the File below we can see that up to 1820 the numbers were consecutive. The file below has been corrected and more numbers installed.

    Anyone who has a Barwise pocket watch, not on this file, I would be pleased to hear from them.

    Allan.
    [​IMG]
     

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  2. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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  3. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thanks much Allan! John Barwise had always confused me.

    I just celebrated a timing run at +2 min in 24 hrs for my 1804 cylinder.

    Graham had corrected me long ago as to the approx. age to place on it.
    Thanks much for your efforts!

    John B. on the left in an 1834 replacement inner case, timing with one
    of my MI Tobias levers from 1861. Note, the only English watch I have
    encountered with Fast on the left hand side of the reg scale.

    Keith R...

    Barwise 3 (1200x900).jpg 103_0278 (800x600).jpg
     
  4. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Finding Barwise watches are far easier today than it was researchers years ago, who had, I think a difficult and time-consuming search. I know from experience that when I started to take interest in Horology, it was sitting for hours and writing on an old typewriter, then putting my efforts (and bad spelling) in an envelope, sticking a stamp on there, and waiting sometimes weeks for a reply. In the meantime reading all, I could about clocks and watches. Many of you will know this of course, but today all it takes is a few clicks on this machine, and all is laid before you. Below are a few pieces I found on the net, among many others, which give a demonstration of Wow Wow, down to what the hell is this, plus those where you know the seller as not done his research. The first one here as a wonderful Detent pocket watch for sale(a long time ago), but claims the watch to be hallmarked London c1790, then shows a photograph of the hallmarks which are clear for 1808.


    Barwise London Very Fine Silver Pocket Chronometer, No. 4387, circa | Lot #54191 | Heritage Auctions



    The file grows by the hour........


    [​IMG]
     

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  5. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Keith, nice movement you have there, could you please send the escapement and any other details it might have, like that inner case, is it hallmarked? Nice touch with the Bosley on the cock. Allan

    PS: Read you post again Cylinder 1804-I will put it on file now.
     
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  6. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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  7. Niall

    Niall Registered User

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  8. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Niall, Thank you for sending the post, you will see your Barwise number on the next issue. Best wishes, Allan
     
  9. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Over the weekend I have taken the time to look for pocket watches by John Barwise, John Barwise & Sons, and later others. This file below is far more comprehensive, and I have come to the conclusion that John Bawrise started to set out a numbering system that was consecutive. The earliest watch at the moment is No. 37 and is dated c1780, some two hundred and thirty-nine years ago. By the time of his death these numbers had reached roughly 8000 items, though I am not sure if his clocks were part of the system. A time scale like that makes one think quite a bit, ledgers come to mind, much like those found in France by Breguet, ledgers like that are very few and far between. Then it struck me, while I was working on "The Book" the most important security for watchmaker and customer was the watch serial number. You took your watch to the repairer for cleaning, and you received a chit, with the items number, saying when you could collect it, and the watchmaker, in this case, noted that number in his workbook. It saved him a lot of time, explaining the watch. Another point here was many of the watches brought into the Osborne workshop in New York, were not well recorded because many Europian watches did not have a serial number. Putting Swiss silver watch is of little interest for researchers, after two hundred years, have gone by. At the time of that first watch sold by Barwise, we have to remember the only watch you could buy had a verge escapement.( We know the story of other escapements and those who could afford one) A verge watch needed cleaning at least every two years, if not sooner, so when a customer brought in his watch, it would like today with our automobiles, be nice to open a ledger and look at what had gone before with the watch. Nice to just look at the number on the watch and trace it in the ledger. Later this was normal, just look at watches by Patek, Langer, Rolex, Jügenson, Audemars, and many others. It would be assistant if others could put their thoughts on here about serial numbers, but first take a look at what can be found in just a few hours. (" Warts and All" has Burton said ) Allan.

    [​IMG]
     

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  10. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    This file is moving along, though slowing down a bit now. I think the numbers for John Barwise senior are straight forward. It is only much later that there is some confusion, but when more of these watches are found, they will tell us more. Allan.

    [​IMG]
     

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  11. DaveyG

    DaveyG Registered User

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    I have purchased a watch :emoji_astonished:. It has been a long time since I shelled out for a watch but this I could not resist at the price. Barwise 10/338 :emoji_slight_smile:. The vendor listed it (yep, on the big site) as having a broken balance and dated it to c1850. Well, the balance isn't broken, the top pivot is bent, looks like someone tightened the cock down without ensuring the pivots were properly located. I may be able to straighten that, but no worries if I can't. Apart from the balance, the movement looks to be in excellent shape. Looking at the serial numbers on your DB Allan it would seem that it dates to around 1833. Would that be correct? The dial isn't good, but not nearly as bad as it looks and the minute hand is probably repairable - if I can find someone with the right skills. The silver case is a purpose made replacement marked for London 1905 and probably by William Bullock of 4 Waverley Street Coventry. It is a good, solid well made item but probably replaced a (worn out) gold one?

    I have taken some, rather hurried pictures.

    Incidentally, the article 'Stewart on Barwise' has it that movement 12/676 is a gold cased, twin train, lever.

    Dial.JPG Dust Cover 2.JPG Top Plate 1.JPG HM Outer.JPG
     
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  12. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Dave, at the moment your watch is c1832/34, and why they chose to use that double number is not clear. A.D.Stewart does not even mention them. That then was the period when John Junior was running the company, and I think still running a good business. Not long after, he must have been, or Alexander Bain would not have asked him to help him sponsor his Patent. Then he decided to help Ingold, and that turned out to be the mistake that ruined him. The rest is all in A.D. Stewart´s article in the March 2013 copy of the AHS journal-good read. Though this file is produced to help those to do further research, there are still many questions about the firm, though one point will stand, BARWISE LONDON was a quality firm and worth collecting. Thanks too for the tip on the duel levers Dave.

    Allan
     

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  13. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    I hope you paid at leat £5 for the watch, Davey :whistle: That is a super find ... and I love your caavalier approach to repairing the balance pivots and the dial and the minute hand ;)
     
  14. DaveyG

    DaveyG Registered User

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    Marty, you have aroused form your slumber :emoji_slight_smile::emoji_thumbsup:. I did mate - pay at least a fiver for it that is. I guess that I appear rather blasé about the faults on the watch because I knew that they were there before I bought it and they are not as bad as I had expected. If I break the pivot trying to straighten it, so I set to and make a new staff (after a lot of practice to remedy skill fade no doubt). The break on the minute hand is clean but that will take a better man then me Gunga Din :emoji_wink:. It is very fine work, not for the ham fisted. The dial, it is what it is, there ain't no fixing that I'm afraid. It can be made to look better though, with a little effort. I am a wee bit concerned about the hairspring which appears to sit nicely coiled but does not pass through the curb pins by quite a margin.

    Allan, it would be interesting to try and get a look at the article in the AH Journal (Autumn 1998) by David Thompson which, it would seem, collated Barwise serial numbers so may have more on the rationale for the double number system. I note that you haven't inserted 10/338 into your data base.

    For those who haven't already seen the article by A D Stewart and might go off hunting for it, it is 2014 rather than 2013.
     
  15. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I was going to put it on file Dave but forgot to ask what the escapement was. So it will be on the next File. (Savage two-pin)? I have Thompson´s article, and I wrote to him asking if he had more information, but never got a reply. Allan
     
  16. DaveyG

    DaveyG Registered User

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    It's a single roller English lever with passing crescent Allan.
     
  17. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Thank you, Dave, I thought it could be a Savage two Pin like my 10/241. See below. Case maker JD Joseph Derwin 1824-to c1834. in 1834 he was at 17, Red Lion Sreet, Clerkenwell, London. Letter "q" for 1831.

    ö-16.JPG ö-17.JPG ö-18.JPG ö-19.JPG



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  18. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    This file was started by when Seth Kennedy put his Barwise 1472 on this board, not that he knew about it, it was just my belief that Barwise used consecutive serial numbers, and I started the search. I did not put 1472 on the list in the hope that I would find more close to 1472, this I was till now unable to achieve. Has it stands at the moment 1472 is the earliest or first Detent pocket chronometer by Barwise. I would be most interested if members could help or know of a chronometer by Barwise that has a smaller number. Allan
     

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  19. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Update-there was a mistake with the 4000´s now corrected.
     

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  20. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I think I now have it right-sorry about the delay.

    [​IMG]
     

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  21. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Hi Dave :)

    As you may (or may not!) have noticed elsewhere on the board, there have been things going on in the Moderator Team which have distracted me significantly for the past several weeks. I shall not slumber nor sleep .... but my prorities have been elsewhere ;) It is nice to get back to talking about watches .....
     
  22. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I have a watch here by Barwise St. Martins Lane, that I once put on the Single Table Roller thread. The odd thing about the watch (Movement anyway), is it has no number on it, and of course, it's not on the above file. Add to that it was at some time converted to STR, and it is also in a pair-case of uncertain date. It runs very well though.
    I am not sure, but I think it was converted from a Rack Lever, the banking pins are set near the roller. and the righthand one is bent. So I thought you might like to see it and give your opinions. A rough guess of this watch and where it would fit above, I think would be fun. One thought that came to mind is that Barwise only did the conversion??:rolleyes:



    v-5.JPG v-4.JPG v-3.JPG v-2.JPG


    v-6.JPG

    This for John Matthews "JC" on the cap.

    v-7.JPG

    These are very odd-looking hallmarks for Birmingham when compared to those in the hallmark books. Plus who is JK? This case though can not be used to date this watch, it is a marriage.

    Allan.
     
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  23. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    [JC] - cap maker possibly James Clark - dates ~1820
    The Birmingham marks are possibly for 1867/68, I have seen similar cartouches from around those dates.
    I cannot see the case makers mark clearly but if it is [J·K] in a rectangular cartouche, it could be Jeremiah Kirk, Coventry 1850-1860

    John
     
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  24. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Thanks, John, the 1820s are about right for this movement, the case is a story on its own, the 1790 shield for Birmingham is very much like that of 1816 the next "S" is 1841, but gothic. The "S" for 1867 is in a round shield and the "S" for 1892 is an "S" with a line through left to right. I think the marks would have been 1816, but somehow the punches were faulty. I wonder if other members have seen these marks on their watches. JK is the case-maker, see below. I think it is Jeremiah Liggins, Summerland Place, The Butts, Coventry. In Priestley´s new book page 55. Sorry the dot between J&K were not clear on the other photograph. Thanks Again, Allan

    v-15.JPG
     
  25. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I'm scratching my head on the 5 spoke balance wheel for 1820.
    My first 5 spoke is 1832.

    Ref. post # 22.

    Nice watch.

    Keith R...
     
  26. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    I don't think so - if search 'Birmingham 1867 Silver' and look at general silverware (not just watch cases) you can find many examples with the identical cartouche surrounding the lion passant and more rarely the same date letter cartouche. These cartouches are not often seen on watch cases. Assay offices had more than one set of punches in use at any one time and I believe the set on this case is not the set normally used on watch cases. From my observations I believe it was a set used on small wares.

    I think you have combined two entries from p.55 - [J·K] in a rectangular cartouche, is Jeremiah Kirk, Summerland Place, The Butts, Coventry 1850-1860 - which is compatible with the date of the case.

    John
     
  27. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Thanks yet again John, I will try and remember that the punch is for small wear. Never seen it before, but then I have very few Birmingham watch cases.

    Keith, not 1820, I said the twenties, that would include 1829. Good comment though, I don´t think we will ever know the exact date, but we are somewhere around 1829-1835.
     
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  28. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Just an update.

    [​IMG]
     

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