Barwise File.

[Allan C. Purcell]

I have put this new thread on here to make it easily accessible, and where it is now it seems to be an obstacle.

It is as been said by many, that the numbers system used by John Barwise is complicated, but the more we find of his work, the more clearly it becomes, that his system was straight forward. We are talking here of John Barwise senior, who lived from c1756 to 1820. Probably because he knew he was dying, he brought his two sons into the business in 1819. Weston Barwise (1793-1826) and John Barwise /1795-1869) to continue the Business. Though looking at the File below we can see that up to 1820 the numbers were consecutive. The file below has been corrected and more numbers installed.

Anyone who has a Barwise pocket watch, not on this file, I would be pleased to hear from them.

Allan.
[pdf]559161[/pdf]

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

69: Barwise Marine Chronometer movement - Jul 31, 2010 | Schmidt's Antiques Inc. Since 1911 in MI.

An example of sales long gone, but we do have a photograph. Number 4137.c1807

 

[Keith R...]

Thanks much Allan! John Barwise had always confused me.

I just celebrated a timing run at +2 min in 24 hrs for my 1804 cylinder.

Graham had corrected me long ago as to the approx. age to place on it.
Thanks much for your efforts!

John B. on the left in an 1834 replacement inner case, timing with one
of my MI Tobias levers from 1861. Note, the only English watch I have
encountered with Fast on the left hand side of the reg scale.

Keith R...

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Finding Barwise watches are far easier today than it was researchers years ago, who had, I think a difficult and time-consuming search. I know from experience that when I started to take interest in Horology, it was sitting for hours and writing on an old typewriter, then putting my efforts (and bad spelling) in an envelope, sticking a stamp on there, and waiting sometimes weeks for a reply. In the meantime reading all, I could about clocks and watches. Many of you will know this of course, but today all it takes is a few clicks on this machine, and all is laid before you. Below are a few pieces I found on the net, among many others, which give a demonstration of Wow Wow, down to what the hell is this, plus those where you know the seller as not done his research. The first one here as a wonderful Detent pocket watch for sale(a long time ago), but claims the watch to be hallmarked London c1790, then shows a photograph of the hallmarks which are clear for 1808.


Barwise London Very Fine Silver Pocket Chronometer, No. 4387, circa | Lot #54191 | Heritage Auctions



The file grows by the hour........


[pdf]559184[/pdf]

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Keith, nice movement you have there, could you please send the escapement and any other details it might have, like that inner case, is it hallmarked? Nice touch with the Bosley on the cock. Allan

PS: Read you post again Cylinder 1804-I will put it on file now.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Los 4197 "Taschenuhr: hochfeines englisches Taschenchronometer mit Chronometerunruh nach Pennington, Barwise London No. 5336, London 1812" aus dem Auktionskatalog "Spezialauktion "Uhren"" vom 05.05.2018: Foto, Preis, Auktionsergebnis, Online kaufen


This watch, among others I have seen today, just makes my mouth dribble, I must start putting my pennies in a box, then buy one.

 

[Niall]

Interesting Barwise London Movement

Hi Allan, link above to a thread with a Barwise movement of mine to add to your file if you wish!

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Niall, Thank you for sending the post, you will see your Barwise number on the next issue. Best wishes, Allan

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Over the weekend I have taken the time to look for pocket watches by John Barwise, John Barwise & Sons, and later others. This file below is far more comprehensive, and I have come to the conclusion that John Bawrise started to set out a numbering system that was consecutive. The earliest watch at the moment is No. 37 and is dated c1780, some two hundred and thirty-nine years ago. By the time of his death these numbers had reached roughly 8000 items, though I am not sure if his clocks were part of the system. A time scale like that makes one think quite a bit, ledgers come to mind, much like those found in France by Breguet, ledgers like that are very few and far between. Then it struck me, while I was working on "The Book" the most important security for watchmaker and customer was the watch serial number. You took your watch to the repairer for cleaning, and you received a chit, with the items number, saying when you could collect it, and the watchmaker, in this case, noted that number in his workbook. It saved him a lot of time, explaining the watch. Another point here was many of the watches brought into the Osborne workshop in New York, were not well recorded because many Europian watches did not have a serial number. Putting Swiss silver watch is of little interest for researchers, after two hundred years, have gone by. At the time of that first watch sold by Barwise, we have to remember the only watch you could buy had a verge escapement.( We know the story of other escapements and those who could afford one) A verge watch needed cleaning at least every two years, if not sooner, so when a customer brought in his watch, it would like today with our automobiles, be nice to open a ledger and look at what had gone before with the watch. Nice to just look at the number on the watch and trace it in the ledger. Later this was normal, just look at watches by Patek, Langer, Rolex, Jügenson, Audemars, and many others. It would be assistant if others could put their thoughts on here about serial numbers, but first take a look at what can be found in just a few hours. (" Warts and All" has Burton said ) Allan.

[pdf]559467[/pdf]

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

This file is moving along, though slowing down a bit now. I think the numbers for John Barwise senior are straight forward. It is only much later that there is some confusion, but when more of these watches are found, they will tell us more. Allan.

[pdf]560181[/pdf]

 

[DaveyG]

I have purchased a watch . It has been a long time since I shelled out for a watch but this I could not resist at the price. Barwise 10/338 . The vendor listed it (yep, on the big site) as having a broken balance and dated it to c1850. Well, the balance isn't broken, the top pivot is bent, looks like someone tightened the cock down without ensuring the pivots were properly located. I may be able to straighten that, but no worries if I can't. Apart from the balance, the movement looks to be in excellent shape. Looking at the serial numbers on your DB Allan it would seem that it dates to around 1833. Would that be correct? The dial isn't good, but not nearly as bad as it looks and the minute hand is probably repairable - if I can find someone with the right skills. The silver case is a purpose made replacement marked for London 1905 and probably by William Bullock of 4 Waverley Street Coventry. It is a good, solid well made item but probably replaced a (worn out) gold one?

I have taken some, rather hurried pictures.

Incidentally, the article 'Stewart on Barwise' has it that movement 12/676 is a gold cased, twin train, lever.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Dave, at the moment your watch is c1832/34, and why they chose to use that double number is not clear. A.D.Stewart does not even mention them. That then was the period when John Junior was running the company, and I think still running a good business. Not long after, he must have been, or Alexander Bain would not have asked him to help him sponsor his Patent. Then he decided to help Ingold, and that turned out to be the mistake that ruined him. The rest is all in A.D. Stewart´s article in the March 2013 copy of the AHS journal-good read. Though this file is produced to help those to do further research, there are still many questions about the firm, though one point will stand, BARWISE LONDON was a quality firm and worth collecting. Thanks too for the tip on the duel levers Dave.

Allan

 

[MartyR]

I hope you paid at leat £5 for the watch, Davey That is a super find ... and I love your caavalier approach to repairing the balance pivots and the dial and the minute hand

 

[DaveyG]

Marty, you have aroused form your slumber . I did mate - pay at least a fiver for it that is. I guess that I appear rather blasé about the faults on the watch because I knew that they were there before I bought it and they are not as bad as I had expected. If I break the pivot trying to straighten it, so I set to and make a new staff (after a lot of practice to remedy skill fade no doubt). The break on the minute hand is clean but that will take a better man then me Gunga Din . It is very fine work, not for the ham fisted. The dial, it is what it is, there ain't no fixing that I'm afraid. It can be made to look better though, with a little effort. I am a wee bit concerned about the hairspring which appears to sit nicely coiled but does not pass through the curb pins by quite a margin.

Allan, it would be interesting to try and get a look at the article in the AH Journal (Autumn 1998) by David Thompson which, it would seem, collated Barwise serial numbers so may have more on the rationale for the double number system. I note that you haven't inserted 10/338 into your data base.

For those who haven't already seen the article by A D Stewart and might go off hunting for it, it is 2014 rather than 2013.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

I was going to put it on file Dave but forgot to ask what the escapement was. So it will be on the next File. (Savage two-pin)? I have Thompson´s article, and I wrote to him asking if he had more information, but never got a reply. Allan

 

[DaveyG]

It's a single roller English lever with passing crescent Allan.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Thank you, Dave, I thought it could be a Savage two Pin like my 10/241. See below. Case maker JD Joseph Derwin 1824-to c1834. in 1834 he was at 17, Red Lion Sreet, Clerkenwell, London. Letter "q" for 1831.





[pdf]565391[/pdf]

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

This file was started by when Seth Kennedy put his Barwise 1472 on this board, not that he knew about it, it was just my belief that Barwise used consecutive serial numbers, and I started the search. I did not put 1472 on the list in the hope that I would find more close to 1472, this I was till now unable to achieve. Has it stands at the moment 1472 is the earliest or first Detent pocket chronometer by Barwise. I would be most interested if members could help or know of a chronometer by Barwise that has a smaller number. Allan

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Update-there was a mistake with the 4000´s now corrected.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

I think I now have it right-sorry about the delay.

[pdf]565763[/pdf]

 

[MartyR]

Marty, you have aroused form your slumber

Hi Dave

As you may (or may not!) have noticed elsewhere on the board, there have been things going on in the Moderator Team which have distracted me significantly for the past several weeks. I shall not slumber nor sleep .... but my prorities have been elsewhere It is nice to get back to talking about watches .....

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

I have a watch here by Barwise St. Martins Lane, that I once put on the Single Table Roller thread. The odd thing about the watch (Movement anyway), is it has no number on it, and of course, it's not on the above file. Add to that it was at some time converted to STR, and it is also in a pair-case of uncertain date. It runs very well though.
I am not sure, but I think it was converted from a Rack Lever, the banking pins are set near the roller. and the righthand one is bent. So I thought you might like to see it and give your opinions. A rough guess of this watch and where it would fit above, I think would be fun. One thought that came to mind is that Barwise only did the conversion??








This for John Matthews "JC" on the cap.



These are very odd-looking hallmarks for Birmingham when compared to those in the hallmark books. Plus who is JK? This case though can not be used to date this watch, it is a marriage.

Allan.

 

[John Matthews]

[JC] - cap maker possibly James Clark - dates ~1820
The Birmingham marks are possibly for 1867/68, I have seen similar cartouches from around those dates.
I cannot see the case makers mark clearly but if it is [J·K] in a rectangular cartouche, it could be Jeremiah Kirk, Coventry 1850-1860

John

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Thanks, John, the 1820s are about right for this movement, the case is a story on its own, the 1790 shield for Birmingham is very much like that of 1816 the next "S" is 1841, but gothic. The "S" for 1867 is in a round shield and the "S" for 1892 is an "S" with a line through left to right. I think the marks would have been 1816, but somehow the punches were faulty. I wonder if other members have seen these marks on their watches. JK is the case-maker, see below. I think it is Jeremiah Liggins, Summerland Place, The Butts, Coventry. In Priestley´s new book page 55. Sorry the dot between J&K were not clear on the other photograph. Thanks Again, Allan

 

[Keith R...]

I'm scratching my head on the 5 spoke balance wheel for 1820.
My first 5 spoke is 1832.

Ref. post # 22.

Nice watch.

Keith R...

 

[John Matthews]

I think the marks would have been 1816, but somehow the punches were faulty.

I don't think so - if search 'Birmingham 1867 Silver' and look at general silverware (not just watch cases) you can find many examples with the identical cartouche surrounding the lion passant and more rarely the same date letter cartouche. These cartouches are not often seen on watch cases. Assay offices had more than one set of punches in use at any one time and I believe the set on this case is not the set normally used on watch cases. From my observations I believe it was a set used on small wares.

JK is the case-maker, see below. I think it is Jeremiah Liggins, Summerland Place, The Butts, Coventry. In Priestley´s new book page 55.

I think you have combined two entries from p.55 - [J·K] in a rectangular cartouche, is Jeremiah Kirk, Summerland Place, The Butts, Coventry 1850-1860 - which is compatible with the date of the case.

John

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Thanks yet again John, I will try and remember that the punch is for small wear. Never seen it before, but then I have very few Birmingham watch cases.

Keith, not 1820, I said the twenties, that would include 1829. Good comment though, I don´t think we will ever know the exact date, but we are somewhere around 1829-1835.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Just an update.

[pdf]567794[/pdf]

 

[zacandy]

@ Allan Interesting thank you for all the hard work.

I expect you saw but Bonhams London in their February 2020 sale had some rather lovely Barwise watches.

Unless I have misunderstood the numbering system these items are not on your list.

As one new to these boards I expect links direct to the Bonhams site are frowned upon maybe so instead below are the summaries of the seemingly missing ones.

1. Barwise, London. An 18K gold key wind full hunter pocket watch
Date: London Hallmark for 1824
Movement: Gilt full plate fusee verge, pierced and engraved balance cock, diamond end stone, No.9185
Dial: White, black Roman numerals, black outer minute track, subsidiary seconds at 6, gilt spade hands
Case: Polished hinged round, signed inner cap stamped RE, No.9185
Signed: Dial & movement, case stamped WW
Size: 53mm

2. Barwise, London. An 18K gold key wind minute repeating open face chronometer pocket watch
Date: London Hallmark for 1829
Movement: Gilt full plate chronometer, cut and compensated bi-metallic balance, helical balance spring, diamond end stone, two hammers striking on two gongs, No.9621
Dial: White, black Roman numerals, black outer minute track, subsidiary seconds at 6, gilt spade hands
Case: Polished hinged round, repeat push to stem, No.9621
Signed: Dial & movement, case stamped WW
Size: 55mm

Andrew

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Andrew, thank you for your interest and taking the time to inform me about Bonham´s sale. I had not seen it. I will add them to the file now, and you will see them soon.

Thank you again.

Allan.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Just an update.

[pdf]573967[/pdf]

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.e...GTON.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline; filename%3DA._D._Stewart._Barwise_and_Pennington_so.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-A

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/52218135/BARWISE___PENNINGTON.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline; filename=A._D._Stewart._Barwise_and_Pennington_so.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A/20200307/us-east-1/s3/aws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20200307T082638Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=2ec16823d633224f326d702a8fdd8d17461768d90579f1f2416ef01da0c2946a

Sorry about this, my first effort did not work, maybe a moderator could get rid of post 32?? I think though it was worth putting on here, it is a valuable piece of information on the early work of Barwise and his friend Pennington.

Allan

 

[DaveyG]

I'm not sure that your #33 link has worked either Allan. I am getting an 'Access denied' message: Reason - 'Request has expired' .

regards

dave

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

I received a PM yesterday Dave, saying the same, but I have no problem here. I press the blue line, no matter where, and up it comes. Another reason for posting it other than the connection to Barwise was the early use of the Pennington balance, which seems to be of interest to members at the moment. Maybe a moderator will take a look??

Best,

Allan.

PS; 20 March 2017 A.D. Stewart (AHS)

 

[John Matthews]

Allan/Dave

Complicated links that include personalised search and request elements rarely work.

Here is a simple link - A. D. Stewart. Barwise and Pennington: some of their early pocket chronometers

I believe it will work for all, but I extracted it from my account on the site. It is simple to create an account and you can do so using Facebook and Google mail accounts.

The alternative is to download it and attach a copy to your post. I haven't checked the copyright.

John

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

A. D. Stewart. Barwise and Pennington: some of their early pocket chronometers

Thank John, I now know how you did that. You just copied the title??

Allan.

PS: Hoooops maybe not.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Does anyone know the number on the Dr Randdam presentation watch on page four? Should be in the 7,000 range.

Allan

[pdf]575401[/pdf]

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Need help on page 17. Very strange Barwise.
Allan.

[pdf]576935[/pdf]

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Just an update.

[pdf]579932[/pdf]

 

[Clodagh Barwise]

hi
This is my g g g g grandfather ( I think that is the correct number of g's!) so love seeing what you are up to!

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hello Mrs Barwise, nice to know someone in the Family as taken an interest in the above file. The obvious question from people in Horology is, do you have any family history or relics, photographs, and above all, Clocks and watches. I do hope so.

The history of your g g g g grandfather is always interesting if you keep searching the FORUMS above you will find all that is known about him and his son,s and what happened to the firm in later years.

Thank you again for your kind remarks,

Allan.

The latest edition.
[pdf]591591[/pdf]

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

There are now 5 black dials in the Barwise file, and all are in a frame from c1802 to c1808. With a little luck, there could still be more out there.3284 with this dial did not have all its information, and this week I found the Auction from 2012 by the Canterbury Galleries Auction. See page 19 for a photograph.

Allan.

 

[svenedin]

I have put this new thread on here to make it easily accessible, and where it is now it seems to be an obstacle.

It is as been said by many, that the numbers system used by John Barwise is complicated, but the more we find of his work, the more clearly it becomes, that his system was straight forward. We are talking here of John Barwise senior, who lived from c1756 to 1820. Probably because he knew he was dying, he brought his two sons into the business in 1819. Weston Barwise (1793-1826) and John Barwise /1795-1869) to continue the Business. Though looking at the File below we can see that up to 1820 the numbers were consecutive. The file below has been corrected and more numbers installed.

Anyone who has a Barwise pocket watch, not on this file, I would be pleased to hear from them.

Allan.
[pdf]559161[/pdf]

Was just browsing the forum and spotted this. I have a Barwise carriage clock if any interest to you but I realise you are asking about pocket watches.

Stephen

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Stephen,
Please post it here, and we can all enjoy it. If possible the escapement too. Thanks for your interest.

Allan

 

[svenedin]

Will do. I have to find it first....

 

[svenedin]

As requested. Apologies that the clock is not very clean. Number is: 997. It has been stored away for a long time and the grime is on the inside of the glass. I noticed a mark on the plate at the bottom of the gong that looks like a "W". Not sure whether of any significance. I posted a video to my YouTube account. There are also videos there of two of my other carriage clocks by LeRoy (with differential winding) and Margaine.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Very nice clock, it's the first carriage clock I have seen by Barwise so close up. Thanks for sharing Stephen.

 

[svenedin]

Very nice clock, it's the first carriage clock I have seen by Barwise so close up. Thanks for sharing Stephen.

You are very welcome Allan. It is nice to share things that are normally locked away. It is such a shame that they are locked away but that is the world we live in. Mr Barwise is now happily ticking away on my desk and I think I will enjoy the clock for a week or two. If you would like any other pictures just ask. I presume this clock is by John Barwise the 2nd, son of John Barwise?

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Stephen, Yes I would say the same, there are indications that clock could have been imported, the compensation balance looks to be Swiss-the clock people on here may know more, not that it really matters, its a first-class carriage clock sold by a top firm. I wish it was mine.

Allan.