English Barraud, Cornhill 931

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Tom McIntyre, Feb 24, 2018.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #1 Tom McIntyre, Feb 24, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
    I have been collecting Barraud watches and chronometers for quite a while now. I also had the great good fortune to acquire some extra fine pieces from my friends the Laux twins before they both died.

    What I have not had was a Barraud clock. Most clocks signed Barraud or Barraud & Lunds were made for their account by Thwaites & Reed. I would have been happy enough with one of those but had not seen one I really liked. I had asked my friend David Penney if he could find one for me and he said he knew where the one pictured in Cedric Jagger's book was and the owner might be willing to sell it. That was 7 or 8 years ago and nothing had developed until just recently.

    The owner of the clock wanted to trade it for a watch that David had and David asked me if I still wanted the clock. I did indeed so the clock is now proudly sitting on my mantle.

    It just came today and survived its transatlantic voyage pretty well. The last person who worked on it fitted the pin holding the minute hand with a taper pin ben into an S curve which I was not able to dislodge, so I do not have any pictures from under the dial.

    This clock with balance wheel and verge was most likely mounted in the cabin wall of the captain of a sailing ship. It is most likely from the period 1795 to 1805 and is certainly earlier than 1815. (Oops, in my haste to post this I got the date wrong. The Barrauds signature would not have been before 1806 when Frederick Joseph joined his father in the business. The low number threw me off.)

    The clock is wound started and adjusted from the back. The likely arrangement was that the cabin boys bunk closet was on the other side of the wall and the cabin boy would have been responsible for keepng the clock wound and setting the time to match the ships time.

    The octagonal case may be original. The silvered appearing dial is not engraved except for the signature and it may have been a white dial at one time. The handles and the stand to convert the clock to a bracket clock would have been added when the clock was removed from ship service.

    I have included lots of pictures as well as a video of the operation.

    It is the nicest verge movement I have seen but I do not normally collect these items since I switched from clocks to watches in the 1980's.

    <<I swapped out the YouTube video for the same video served by Vimeo. 2/24/2018 11:14>>


    63B60DA6-B0B8-4F73-9A89-326EF003091E.jpeg 9AAD5F56-1A22-438E-80A1-6C403DC2426F.jpeg 9D6A0221-F09B-4F93-8BD1-D0097C80E625.jpeg FFE4BFE6-795D-47FC-B35C-F8B5C6990A59.jpeg C3BBA9BE-7547-45B5-8FEB-419DDDDF0D12.jpeg 2D20F836-1514-45CA-AB3E-117A914980C1.jpeg 099C419E-AF3E-4933-BE0D-0344C29B5CA0.jpeg 22327C62-3CC8-4EDC-AFA8-CE930AD60D4D.jpeg E0EFD108-E76D-4F6B-AFC2-C689BEB5215B.jpeg 8412C27B-9A59-45E5-BAAD-78D5DBA8546D.jpeg
     
  2. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,981
    427
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Is it a big verge watch then?
     
  3. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I will see how well it keeps time. It may be a verge marine chronometer. :)
     
  4. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jan 22, 2002
    4,665
    62
    48
    Country Flag:
    That's a pretty nice catch. Congratulations!

    Ralph
     
  5. River rat

    River rat Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Apr 4, 2009
    557
    106
    43
    Nice ships clock and real early from 1795 it's got some great history you wonder what ports it's been to. And a great looking verge movement I only have one RAF mantel with a fusee movement but your movement put's it to shame. How's the time keeping is it as good as a ships chronometer and since it was not in a gimbal box was the movement designed in a way to handle the movement of a ship at sea and still keep great time.
     
  6. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,972
    520
    113
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Tom that is one nice clock- This is the first time I have seen a clock like that (Of that period)-and thank you for the video too. I notice you dragged out the old Barraud files from 2016 on the watch threads-that is a fine coincidence. I am at the moment re-writing the Barraud file I made, because there is so much more information come to light since then. (.Jonathans new book). In the old file there are only two clocks, a longcase, and a bracket clock with a Barraud chronometer inside. So if you don´t mind can I use your clock in the file. I notice too in the old thread there are also pieces by Barraud not mentioned in that file, I will up-date those too. Best Wishes, Allan.
     
  7. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,981
    427
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Do you think the bezel is original?

    I only ask because it is the size of a dial clock, and early dial clocks that had brass bezels had concave profiles rather than convex.

    Obviously is isn't going to follow the form of a dial clock but I was thinking about parts. Bracket clocks had convex bezels but more so in regency times.
     
  8. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,972
    520
    113
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Tom that is one nice clock- This is the first time I have seen a clock like that-and thank you for the video too. I notice you dragged out the old Barraud files from 2016 on the watch threads-that is a fine coincidence. I am at the moment re-writing the Barraud file I made, because there is so much more information come to light since then. (.Jonathans new book). In the old file there are only two clocks, a longcase, and a bracket clock with a Barraud chronometer inside. So if you don´t mind can I use your clock in the file. I notice too in the old thread there are also pieces by Barraud not mentioned in that file, I will up-date those too. Best Wishes, Allan.
     
  9. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

    Jun 1, 2006
    4,198
    70
    48
    Devon
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A beautiful clock and lucky you to have got it especially after all this time. A pity you can't remove the dial as I understand T&R often marked and numbered their clocks on the front plate but I'm sure you'll manage to at some point.
     
  10. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

    Jul 20, 2014
    733
    38
    28
    Forensic science
    The Netherlands
    Country Flag:
    Thanks for sharing, a truly beautiful clock!
     
  11. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The hands are a problem and not a problem. The issue is not the difficulty of fixing it, but my lack of dexterity and vision. I will take it to my young friends clock shop this week and have him get the hands free.

    The taper pin that holds the minute hand on was bent in an S curve and broke while I was trying to work it loose, so the stub is stuck in the arbor and requires more skill than I have to get it loose.

    The hour hand is even stranger in that the hour pipe is very thick walled and the hand has a screw that attaches it to the flat end surface. That screw is also loose so the hour hand flops about and interferes with either the minute hand or the second hand from time to time. Once Chris get that pin out for me, it will be a few minutes work to get it all straight. For now I have the arresting/starting piece engaged to keep it from running and getting bound up. There are likely to be two screws holding the hour hand, so a screw may need to be made or found for it.

    The brass bezel is held by long tabs inserted into slots in the front of the wooden bezel like trim. There are 4 special screws (one missing) that go though holes in the tabs. I will get some pictures of the very strange screws with almost no head and a very large and long shank compared to the threaded portion. Any or all of the packaging may have been made at the time it was liberated from the ship, but I kind of think the main case was always there with the bezel.

    Allan, as always, feel free to use any of my material as you wish with recognition of the source.
     
  12. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    This question got me to thinking that this clock may not really be a "verge" in the normal sense. i.e. I cannot see any recoil in the crown wheel or in the motion of the seconds hand. The pallets look like they may be curved to give a "dead-beat" verge action. I have had some watches over the years with dead beat verges and Barraud may have had some connection with the Debaufre chaff cutter movements that were sold under their name (or forged name). In any case when it gets running this week, I may break out my MicroSet and make some measurements.

    As to gimbals, I do not think this would have ever been used as the primary time source and I think I may have seen an arrangement in Portsmouth with the cabin boy's bunk in a compartment off the captains cabin that would have been part of the maintenance of the clock.
     
  13. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jan 22, 2002
    4,665
    62
    48
    Country Flag:
    #13 Ralph, Feb 25, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
    Tom,

    Is that upper lever on the balance a hack or a kick starter for the balance.

    Ralph
     
  14. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yes. If you look at the video to the end you will be me operating it. I do not have a good picture of the lovely regulator scale in the back, but it is very nice also. (I really love this clock.) It weighs close to 20 lbs and was a bit heavier than that packed for shipping.
     
  15. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I was thinking about the verge action and noticed that my iPhone has a slow motion capture option. I did not want to take the movement out of the clock again until I had a chance to get it to Chris to sort out the hand situation. I decided I could probably see the recoil by taking a slow motion video of the seconds hand. I think the recoil action of the verge is visible.
     
  16. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    My friend Chris managed to remove the pin holding the hands on. It was a real bear to get out. I had time this evening to disassemble it enough to get the under dial pictures. It seems to be in very good order. It was last serviced by Kramer, a jeweler and watchmaker in Lorrach Germany. It may have been fairly recently and certainly following the sale of the piece at Christy, Manon and Wood in the early 70's.

    The main news under the dial is the clockmaker's name which is Holmden with his serial number 382. Jagger has another Barrauds clock,976, by Holmden, that is still in the family that bought it new and has an established date of 1820 with serial number 436. Jagger also has Barrauds 712 with a date from the Thwaites & Reed records of 1816.

    Since this serial number 931 is bracketed by those two the clock was very likely made around 1818. If the Holmden records were available, we might get more accurate but that is probably good enough.

    2FBAA71F-6A86-4726-9076-EE43C22C249E.jpeg 357EB0D9-03D3-4D73-AD71-241E029F1A48.jpeg 734AAE78-65BA-4CB0-B9AB-228196F72FB3.jpeg 46A16721-FCEC-407F-B541-7BDB836DF868.jpeg E13A0241-8DB9-4FDD-B575-32291749F180.jpeg BD04716F-7281-4485-BE34-167DB363C09B.jpeg 5FE00FEB-69F9-45B4-AE9E-AA89888DB976.jpeg 6F808B0E-BE92-4F04-A860-32D4A9DFCDAA.jpeg F90461C1-3C4C-4DA5-BE60-37C87F58DDA5.jpeg kramer_uhrmacher.png
     
  17. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    3,703
    349
    83
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The service at Kramer was in December 1994 (12/94). it is handwritten on their label.

    Uhralt
     
  18. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Good to know. That would mean it was serviced for the owner previous to me, who purchased it in 1992. They may very well have information available on what they did for him.

    I saw the 12/94 but, for some reason, thought it a code rather than a date.
     
  19. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 22, 2005
    2,141
    53
    48
    Male
    Clock service & repair
    Santa Rosa Calif.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Would these be used on this clock:???::???:

    Verge.jpg
     
  20. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The crown wheel is the same basic idea, but the proportions are rather different.

    f90461c1-3c4c-4da5-be60-37c87f58dda5-jpeg.jpg
     
  21. daveR

    daveR Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 10, 2008
    259
    4
    18
    hospital storeman
    melbourne, Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    very nice clock Tom.
    David
     
  22. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I wound the clock on Sunday, March 4th at 4:30 in the afternoon. It ran down this morning (March 12th) at 10:40. Since it was last serviced in July 1994, that seems fairly impressive. I suppose that "8 day" is a generic term and 7 days 17 hours qualifies it as an 8 day clock.

    At 4:30 on the 11th, it had lost a total of 12 minutes with the regulator almost all the way to the fast position. The clock runs at 4 beats/second and is delightful to watch through the top window.

    I will be having it overhauled before I do any further performance testing. I am expecting this balance wheel verge to have unusually good performance for that escapement. During the servicing it will have the details of the movement documented. I am particularly interested in the shape of the pallets since I cannot get a good view of them with the movement intact. As mentioned earlier, the escapement does have some recoil as observed from the movement of the seconds hand.
     
    musicguy likes this.
  23. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    reid_flamenville.png My copy of Jonathan Betts catalog of the RMM Chronometer Collection arrived two days ago. As I was reading the general section which I found very, very good, I came across his discussion of dead beat escapements comparing the cylinder, virgule, duplex and Flamenville escapement. Apparently in the early days of the cylinder the Flamenville was very competitive since it was so similar to the familiar verge escapement.

    The picture of the tumbling pallet escapement struck me as looking very much like the verge and pallets in the subject clock. I will be trying to persuade my friend Richard to take it down and get it working well as well as making some careful measurement of its action.

    The Flamenville was very well thought of in the second quarter of the 18th century. Reid's treatise has a brief discussion and one of the plates has some good drawings of the escapement. Here is a picture from my copy of Reid's Treatise on Cock and Watch Making.

    Note the shape of the pallets like a cylinder with a section cut away in the lower picture. The semi-circular shape is also apparent in the upper drawing of the escapement. There is a third drawing of just the escape wheel on the upper right of the picture.
     
  24. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Just to clarify, the active part of the Flamenville is the remaining section of the cut away portion. In the subject clock the full diameter pieces are much longer than in the drawing and go most of the way to the pivot mounts.
     
  25. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    5,430
    472
    83
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    really lovely... congrats
     
  26. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,981
    427
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  27. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I am sure the new owner will post it here on the Message Board once it arrives. :)
     
  28. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    5,430
    472
    83
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    … Did he say that with a knowing smiley?

    also… nice T-shirt in your profile pic, Tom!
     
  29. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I was wondering when you would notice it. :) My wife sold it to me at the MidWinter Regional in Lakeland last month. She operates the Museum Gift Shop there and at the National.
     
  30. beechleaf

    beechleaf Registered User

    Apr 9, 2013
    51
    1
    6
    U.S. Postal Service
    Utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Exellent clock would love to add one of those to my collection.
     
  31. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I am wondering if their are any formal articles on the general subject of English Cabin Clocks except for specific examples. i.e. were they considered a "class" of clock? Were they used to provide backup time to the ship's chronometer? A balance wheel verge has the advantage over a chronometer that you cannot make it stop unless you smash it. If your chronometer got a jar in a storm that made it set (i.e. stop) then the cabin clock could be used to recover the time. If it were set to the chronometer at least daily that would be a useful piece of insurance.
     
  32. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

    Mar 22, 2009
    959
    81
    28
    Male
    Australia
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hey Tom,

    I saw the Brocksbanks and Atkins for auction and afterwards regretted not bidding for it......It's superb as is the clock in this thread! Good to see clocks of this type ending up in the care of true enthusiast.

    Well done.
    Dean
     
  33. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,981
    427
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    That would have fitted in your crate nicely Dean.
     
  34. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I now have my clock back from an extensive visit with Richard Ketchen who has it running beautifully. I will post his report on the clock in another post.

    I bought an 8 day Marine Crhonometer by Barraud earlier this year and for some reason did not recognize the sgniicance of its serial number at the time. It is 933 or only two away from my cabin clock. It is discussed in this thread. Marine: - Large Barraud 8 day 933. It is very likely that both were in Barraud's shop at the same time 200 years ago.

    I am very happy with the conservation work richard did. He also did a bit more reading on the Flamenville escapement and was able to convince himself that is was a Flamenville. Other that being dead beat, the most obvious difference is in the angle of the impulse faces on the pallets which are 180 deg apart on the Flamenville and typically 80 or 90 deg. on a verge. Richard made some drawings from the clock as well as his task list for the work done. I will post those when I get a chance to scan them.
     
    D.th.munroe and musicguy like this.
  35. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    KetchenBarraud.pdf I have scanned Richard's report and it is attached here. I misquoted him on verge angles above he wrote 90 to 100 deg. As it stands the clock does have a Flamenville escapement. I will post more pictures in a day or two, but I will not be tearing it down for internal pictures. I think the before pictures are sufficient to understand the clock.

    The PDF file is the report and the picture is his sketch of some of the work.

    KetchenBarraud.png
     

    Attached Files:

  36. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Following up on the performance of the Barraud Flamenville escapement clock made by Holmden. I have had this clock running continuously for 6 months now and have slowly adjusted the regulator until it appears to be as accurate as I can make it. I wind it each Sunday and after about 4 months of adjusting and settling, it is now keeping time to 1 minute fast per week.

    Fortunat Mueller-Maerki remarked to me that the story he heard was that these pieces were subject to wear on the escapement and that was why they had passed out of favor. When they are worn, one sees a bit of recoil but that is not there when the pallets are new and everything is set up properly. Since the wear probably takes at least 50 years to develop, I think I will keep it running..
     
    DeanT likes this.

Share This Page